BNP success in middle class areas

54 posts / 0 new
Last post
meanoldman
Offline
Joined: 15-01-04
Mar 31 2004 12:18
BNP success in middle class areas

To follow on from the debate at the conference:

The debate was essentially about how we should respond to a shift in BNP electoral support from working class areas to middle class areas. In Burnley it appears that the BNP's initial electoral success in white working class areas has destroyed there support in those areas because they've been completely incompetent in power and have also become politicians so people looking for a 'non-politician' to vote for will no longer vote for them. But getting council seats has given them the credibility to gain support in middle class areas so there has been a shift in the class composition of there support. The issue we were debating is whether we respond to this as anti-fascists and if so how we respond to this.

My thoughts are (briefly) as follows: BNP electoral success in middle class areas does increase incidences of racism but to campaign against this on the basis of electoralism, ie campaiging in middle class areas for people not to vote BNP, goes against our opposition to electoral politics. But I also find ignoring BNP success tricky, the BNP in power would be an extremely bad thing for anarchists in the UK. So I kind of don't have a conclusion.

nastyned
Offline
Joined: 30-09-03
Mar 31 2004 20:13

Some anti-fascists get drawn into electorial politics to try and counter far-right electoral successes but i think that shows the dangers of anti-fascism as an ideology. If you foucus too much on just being anti-fascist (rather than pro-anarchist!) you can end up basically supporting the status quo against the percived fascist threat and we know where that leads.

Interesting to see that the BNP are losing coucilors. I had heard someone point out recently that BNP coucilors are useless and as we know they're not going to be able to keep their election promises. They thought this would mean a return to street politics from the in a couple of years. I don't know if a switch from the BNP to wooing the middle class will prevent this or just postpone it.

JoeMaguire's picture
JoeMaguire
Offline
Joined: 26-09-03
Apr 2 2004 13:59
Tommy Ascaso wrote:
I think the BNP would quite like to return to street politics and I think they're getting cockier in London, with the two demos held a while ago on one day (although some of 'em got battered!) we are going to have to watch the June elections closely....This will be accompanied by watering down of the partys openly fascist politics (which we've already seen at the moment) and a split in the BNP with the more hardline fascists in the organisation either joining Blackham's NF or other minor fascist groups - or creating yet another far-right group.red n black star

Tommy Ascaso, you go on to contradict yourself, are the fash going into street fights or are they going FN on us?

Personally I think the street image will go into the background until they have roots or at least some sort of presence.

But in terms of theyre successes its mainly been built around places of quite high deprivation where both whites and asian/blacks live in very segragated neighbourhoods such as the North West former mill towns or areas where theyre is a very affluent white middle class that as zero contact with people from ethnic minorities. So currently beyond small pocket communities I cant see them making massive gains without an overall in their stratergy.

Kalashnikov_Blues
Offline
Joined: 19-09-03
Apr 12 2004 01:50

I'da put this somewhere else... but your know, this is the "current" BNP thread, so... (plus it could go in like 5 other places)

http://irelandsown.net/News.html

Scroll to the 2nd heading down.

Its a news article on the BNP trying it on in Ireland.

Thought it was nice to see someone else telling them to get fucked. No without reason obviously, but nonetheless....

The rest of the site is rather interesting. I have only just started to look at it, but it appears to have shitloads of info.

Including Anarchist militas and guerilla warfare tactics...?

Like I said, I havent looked at it fully yet, only skimmed it, so don't shoot me if it ends up wanting to hang us wink

AlexA
Offline
Joined: 16-09-03
May 5 2004 12:53

(blues ain't an af member smile)

Kalashnikov_Blues
Offline
Joined: 19-09-03
May 6 2004 17:21

Dude! Relax... read what I wrote, I thought I covered my ass quite well on that one, I actually thought it would be removed anyway.

I merely put it there for the BNP thing.

It was certainly not my intention to add to your already inflamed ulcer wink

Buy! Consume! Obey!
Offline
Joined: 29-12-03
May 7 2004 14:12
revol68 wrote:
bollox

which seems to sum up yr argument with cw.

i don't see why class war should pander to fuckwitted liberal arsery. why shouldn't we link to the irsp? why shouldn't we have a position on headscarves? yr full of bluster, but short on the reasons for yr position.

ClassWar
Offline
Joined: 24-10-03
May 7 2004 14:48
revol68 wrote:
It would seem class war would rather take their analysis from a bunch of marxist leninists with a fine line in gangsterism, sectarian murder and "police" brutality than from anarchists actually trying to do something in Ireland.

When you get round to doing something revol - do let us know. We might change our position then.

ClassWar
Offline
Joined: 24-10-03
May 7 2004 15:16
revol68 wrote:
are u implying that anarchists in ireland have been doing nothing over the years???

Either you have been doing nothing, or you have failed to articulate all the great successes/actions you have had.

Lets face it the list of well-known Irish Anarchists, or Irish anarchist groups, is about as long as the list of great Irish heavyweight boxers.

If you have presented such a brilliant alternative, why do groups like the IRSP, PUP, Sinn Fein, Socialist Party (as examples) all have profiles that dwarf any of the Irish Anarchist organisations?

Perhaps you will go on and do bigger and better things. I hope you do. But in the meantime please don't tell try to claim that there is nothing to learn from groups like the IRSP/Sinn Fein etc, because there is.

Buy! Consume! Obey!
Offline
Joined: 29-12-03
May 7 2004 15:32

revol68

correct me if i'm wrong, but yr position seems similar to that of the officials.

would you have it that nothing had changed for w/c catholics, be they unionist (bakunin forbid!), nationalist or republican since 1969? would you tag along behind the trots of pd, hoping for some crumbs from their table?

what's all this "i live in northern ireland" bit, too?

Buy! Consume! Obey!
Offline
Joined: 29-12-03
May 7 2004 15:34
revol68 wrote:
the SWP

this must be a different swp to the one most of us are familiar with.

Ed's picture
Ed
Offline
Joined: 1-10-03
May 7 2004 16:56
Quote:
since we are so small and kicking against years and years of sectarianism which has left the working class hugely divided we would appreciate solidarity, but then i suppouse the IRSP are more worthy of it than actual class struggle libertarians.

In all honesty, revol, when you've been so provocative you can't expect that much solidarity.

Look, I'm not in CW (prolly soon to join the AF as it happens) and my view on Ireland is prolly closer to yours than to CW's. But I like to think that if I got into a discussion with someone from CW (on the internet or - shock horror - in real life!) about N Ireland, then I would at least be civil. You know, recognise that we're both human and we're both fighting for international working class liberation and as such, we should be treating with each other with a certain amount of respect. I'm not saying you should like everyone but to just come here and start calling CW a bunch of cunts (yeah, I know you didn't say this exactly just paraphrasing) isn't gonna change anyone's mind.

Also, I don't like the divisive way you're talking about CW, AF and SF. Personally, I've got respect for people in all the feds even if I do lean to one more than the others. We all have our own way of doing things but we're all pretty similar (bloody Judean People's Front!).

I guess what I want to say is, let's be nice. Let's not bury differences but let's discuss them in a civil way. Yeah?

PaulMarsh's picture
PaulMarsh
Offline
Joined: 26-09-03
May 7 2004 19:04

I think the main point to remember here is that there have always been people in Class War with exactly the same views on Northern Ireland as revol 68.

Just as there has always been people in Class War who see positive elements in the Republican struggle. Both manage to coexist in one organisation.

Sadly revol68 falls into the classic Anarchist trap that you can only be part of his little gang if you absolutely agree with his groups position (in this instance) on Ireland.

In other circumstances the argument has to be "correct" on unions, or which Anarchist International to be a part of.

Sad, when we could all achieve so much more.

Buy! Consume! Obey!
Offline
Joined: 29-12-03
May 7 2004 19:27
revol68 wrote:
i live in northern ireland is pretty straight forward it means i live in Northern Ireland!

unless u want me to call it the "north", "north of Ireland", the "occupied six counties" or "ulster" or whatever lingusitic arrangement would bring us one step forwards towards the concrete liberation of the working class??

given the significance of calling the six counties ni, i'd have thought you'd have called it "the north" or summat, rather than using the crown designation.

PaulMarsh's picture
PaulMarsh
Offline
Joined: 26-09-03
May 7 2004 19:57

Revol68 makes a lot of fuss that London Class War's website swapped links with the IRSP.

I suggested it to the IRSP, and was pleased they accepted. There is a fuck of a lot we can learn from the good and bad things in their history.

I note however that Revol68 is a little calmer about the fact that the Irelands Own site (which he slags off above) links to one of the Anarchist Federation sites.

http://irelandsown.net/links.htm

Ed's picture
Ed
Offline
Joined: 1-10-03
May 8 2004 13:25

Look, this is gonna me my last post on discussion etiquette coz frankly, it's just off the point. Revol, you didn't just 'point out' that CW would rather link to IRSP than Irish @'s (which I agree is odd), you said

Quote:
i will start on those class war one's very soon if they say one more thing about Ireland.

Provocative? A little. Constructive? Not very.

As for:

Quote:
i will not shut up just cos it maybe divisive to the movement. Class war is not above reproach.

When did I say you should shut up? I'm all for debate within the movement. In fact, I think it's essential. But you're not debating when you say:

Quote:
at this point i'd like to say thanks to the AF and Solfed for trying to dispell alot of the myths surrounding the "Irish question" whilst the SWP, Red Action and Class War were cheering on the "National LIberation struggle".

You're just drawing a line between AF + SF and CW.

Anyway, fuck this. I can't be bothered. I'm too young to get disillusioned from the anarchist movement coz of sectarian back-biting. Either you learn to play nice or go to a different part of the fucking nursery.

On to Ireland, I have to say I never have understood why CW support the Republican movement. I mean, Nat Lib is one thing but surely we can see quite blatantly that the Marxist-Leninist IRSP and the oddballs in the IRA are dodgy as fuck. I mean, as much as I hate Revol's style, you haven't managed to come back on any of his questions regarding basis for support. Punishment beatings, sectarian murders plus more dodgy stuff. I don't get why CW would support anyone like that. Explanations?

PaulMarsh's picture
PaulMarsh
Offline
Joined: 26-09-03
May 8 2004 20:25
revol68 wrote:

even if class war disagrees with our position could it not at least acknowledege our existance.

solidarity is more than a word!!

OK - After over 12 years in the Anarchist movement I am now aware that there are people who call themselves class struggle anarchists in Northern Ireland, and who reject what they see as a divide between republicanism and unionism.

I know this - not because any of them have ever contacted me, (or Class War) not because I have heard any positive reports of their actions, not because I have ever met any of them, but because one of their number - revol68 wanted to pick an internet fight with Class War on a thread about another issue, and has repeatedly told me that these groups exist.

I hope I hear more of them, and in different circumstances.

As for the points Ed makes on punishment beatings, I can't say I have ever heard anyone in Class War argue in favour of teenagers being shot for breaking into cars (as an example)

It is clear however that not everyone in Northern Ireland shares this view (lets face it the groups responsible for such actions hardly lack support) and that in some instances it is the community that asks for/expects such actions against the most anti-social criminals in an area.

Could it be the case that it is the Anarchists that are isolated from the wider working class on this issue, not the IRA/INLA?

In my neighbourhood I have recently heard of a series of car break ins outside a local boxing gym. Whilst people train inside, some local kids rob from their cars. As one of the professional fighters at the gym said to me - "We have chased them twice, the next time we will beat them up very, very severely"

I for one won't shed any tears if this happens, and I doubt many working class people would.

Many people in CW regularly attended events like the Hunger Strike Commemorations in London, the Bloody Sunday campaign, and even went up to Scotland for things like the James Connolly commemoration. We did so for one simple reason - we thought it was the right thing to do.

I still do.

Sadly I doubt there is a version on-line, but there was a very good pamphlet on Ireland published in the late 80s by Attack International called "The Spirit of Freedom" which argued the case for some of the campaigns I cite above, and why it actually mattered for Anarchists to learn about this war that the state was involved in, in our names.

If you can find a copy, people should read it.

Finally - On the links issue - revol PM me a list of N Ireland Anarchist websites, and we will put a link on to them. Can we expect one back?

Buy! Consume! Obey!
Offline
Joined: 29-12-03
May 9 2004 11:23

revol68

why is it the only place i've met organise! members was on this year's bloody sunday march in derry? were they being sectarian and taking sides by being there, on a republican demonstration? (and if it wasn't a republican demonstration, before you quibble, what were several rfb's, a load of sinn feiners and so forth doing on it?)

many anarchists and other revolutionaries recognise the power of language and use of terms - just as much as imperialists and such. which is why i find it somewhat disconcerting that you seem to think that calling the six counties in the province of ni "northern ireland" or (satan!) "ulster" appropriate. seems to me from yr language that you seem very happy that the national question be left on the back burner. i recognise that there are other things in the six counties to do then concentrate on the dis/unity of ireland. but the only people from the six counties i've met who called it ni were unionists and loyalist types. i hope yr not in one of those two categories.

with punishment beatings, what's yr alternative to halting anti-social crime? would you report people to the ruc/psni? would you plead with the delinquents to halt their anti-community actions? what would you do?

Quote:
even if class war disagrees with our position could it not at least acknowledege our existance.

er...

earlier this year, freedom printed the founding statement of organise!

who do you think got it put in freedom? the af?

Buy! Consume! Obey!
Offline
Joined: 29-12-03
May 9 2004 13:10
revol68 wrote:
Quote:
many anarchists and other revolutionaries recognise the power of language and use of terms

ur not a tad patronising sure ur not!!!! roll eyes

stupid plastic paddy!

how many counties are there in ulster? nine? why would you (as you've posted above) describe the six counties in the province of ni as "ulster"? since when have anarchists used state terms like "ulster" for the six counties (...)?

yr more than a tad patronising thinking you - and you alone - are the bearer of the "truth" about the six counties. it's also patronising thinking that all class war members share the same view on ireland.

how are you going to entice more people to become involved with organise! if you seem to have a major problem with nationalism/republicanism and unionism/loyalism? how are you going to persuade interested people who may for many years have been (eg) republican supporters that yr right?

Ed's picture
Ed
Offline
Joined: 1-10-03
May 10 2004 15:58
Quote:
how are you going to entice more people to become involved with organise! if you seem to have a major problem with nationalism/republicanism and unionism/loyalism? how are you going to persuade interested people who may for many years have been (eg) republican supporters that yr right?

Sorry but that's a bit of a poor argument B!C!O! Most of the working class the world over hold ideologies that are completely opposed to Anarchism. I mean, the Israeli working class are tied to Zionism and the Palestinian working class are tied to Islamic Fundamentalism or Palestinian Nationalism. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have a major problem with any of those ideologies. I myself have a massive problem with all those ideologies and we obviously have to persuade them that Anarchism is better. How? Well, that's another thread innit!

Also, I wouldn't say that a Bloody Sunday march was a Republican march. Would you say a Columbian Solidarity march was a Marxist-Leninist march. Or that an Free Palestine march was a Arafat supporters' or Islamic Fundamentalist march? Of course not.

Quote:
with punishment beatings, what's yr alternative to halting anti-social crime? would you report people to the ruc/psni? would you plead with the delinquents to halt their anti-community actions? what would you do?

So do you support punishment beatings then? Crime and punishment is a complicated subject which I ain't gonna outline here but I don't think the IRA's current tactic is particularly helpful. Come on, punishment beatings are not the best way of controlling crime in an area. How is that any different to the cops?

I still don't understand the basis for anarchist support of the IRA or the IRSP.

Buy! Consume! Obey!
Offline
Joined: 29-12-03
May 11 2004 12:52
Ed wrote:
the Israeli working class are tied to Zionism

as the vast majority of the israeli working class moved to israel because they were zionists is that any great surprise?

Quote:
Also, I wouldn't say that a Bloody Sunday march was a Republican march.

who calls the bloody sunday march in derry? i'd say the bloody sunday marchs in london were fenian marchs, what makes the ones in derry different? i've yet to meet anyone on a bloody sunday march NOT a republican!

Quote:
So do you support punishment beatings then? Crime and punishment is a complicated subject which I ain't gonna outline here but I don't think the IRA's current tactic is particularly helpful. Come on, punishment beatings are not the best way of controlling crime in an area. How is that any different to the cops?

and what would you do where you live to dissuade antisocial criminals continuing their activities? a chat over a cup of tea? punishment beatings aren't by any means perfect, yet the alternatives to them would seem to be either letting antisocial crime continue without let or hindrance, or leaving the matter in the hands of the police. what would you have communities do to resolve issues of antisocial behaviour? i don't agree with punishment beatings for the simple reason that they have in the past prompted the recipients to become touts and inform on ira and inla activity. why create enemies when there may well be alternative measures communities in the six counties can take which i haven't thought of and that may prove both more acceptable and effective?

AlexA
Offline
Joined: 16-09-03
May 11 2004 13:18
Buy! Consume! Obey! wrote:
i've yet to meet anyone on a bloody sunday march NOT a republican!
Quote:
why is it the only place i've met organise! members was on this year's bloody sunday march in derry?

So that's not entirely accurate...

Please could people try to be a bit more civil - I'm sure people wouldn't be talking to each other in this way face-to-face. Our movement's fragmented enough as it is!

Buy! Consume! Obey!
Offline
Joined: 29-12-03
May 11 2004 13:42
alexa wrote:
Buy! Consume! Obey! wrote:
i've yet to meet anyone on a bloody sunday march NOT a republican!
Quote:
why is it the only place i've met organise! members was on this year's bloody sunday march in derry?

So that's not entirely accurate...

er... i don't see a dichotomy, tbh.

nastyned
Offline
Joined: 30-09-03
May 11 2004 13:52

1. You saw Organise members on a bloody sunday march

2. Organise members are not republicans

Therefore not everyone on the bloody sunday march is a republican.

Ed's picture
Ed
Offline
Joined: 1-10-03
May 11 2004 14:31
Quote:
Ed wrote:

the Israeli working class are tied to Zionism

as the vast majority of the israeli working class moved to israel because they were zionists is that any great surprise?

You're not addressing my point. The Israeli working class embrace Zionism and the Palestinian working class embrace Islamic fundamentalism or Palestinian Nationalism. Should we, as Anarchists, be embracing these reactionary ideologies in an attempt to gain support from the Israeli and Palestinian working classes?

As for dealing with crime in our communities, I'd say that I wasn't in favour of unaccountable, paramilitary groups (like the IRA etc) handing out beatings coz they're not doing it to protect the w/c, they're doing it to protect their own interests. Of course I don't think we should go to the cops (even if we did, they never do anything anyway!!!) but some group of fuckers unaccountable to the community handing out beatings ain't the way to go about things.

In some cases, yeah, a chat over a cup of tea with the criminal + their family with various community members present might do some good. You know, people who feel close bonds of attachment to their communities are less likely to fuck their community about. Obviously this won't work in every situation, and yeah, in some cases where you have persistant, violent anti-social gobshites (smack/crack dealers, gangsters, rapists etc) we may have to arrange accidents for them or find some way of getting rid of them. But all actions have to be deeply rooted in the community.

That's a quicky, I'm off. Take care all! Glad we're all playing a bit nicer now! red n black star Mr. T red n black star

cantdocartwheels's picture
cantdocartwheels
Offline
Joined: 15-03-04
May 15 2004 04:38
PaulMarsh wrote:

In my neighbourhood I have recently heard of a series of car break ins outside a local boxing gym. Whilst people train inside, some local kids rob from their cars. As one of the professional fighters at the gym said to me - "We have chased them twice, the next time we will beat them up very, very severely"

I for one won't shed any tears if this happens, and I doubt many working class people would.

maybe i'm missing somethin here, but how does that make any sense?

john

PaulMarsh's picture
PaulMarsh
Offline
Joined: 26-09-03
May 15 2004 06:18
cantdocartwheels wrote:
PaulMarsh wrote:

In my neighbourhood I have recently heard of a series of car break ins outside a local boxing gym. Whilst people train inside, some local kids rob from their cars. As one of the professional fighters at the gym said to me - "We have chased them twice, the next time we will beat them up very, very severely"

I for one won't shed any tears if this happens, and I doubt many working class people would.

maybe i'm missing somethin here, but how does that make any sense?

john

Yes.

Is it a no on the links issue revol?

cantdocartwheels's picture
cantdocartwheels
Offline
Joined: 15-03-04
May 15 2004 10:05
PaulMarsh wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
PaulMarsh wrote:

In my neighbourhood I have recently heard of a series of car break ins outside a local boxing gym. Whilst people train inside, some local kids rob from their cars. As one of the professional fighters at the gym said to me - "We have chased them twice, the next time we will beat them up very, very severely"

I for one won't shed any tears if this happens, and I doubt many working class people would.

maybe i'm missing somethin here, but how does that make any sense?

john

Yes.

Seriously, i'd like to see how a bunch of macho boxer assholes going round and beating up a bunch of kids for breaking into their cars has anything to do with class struggle?

john

PaulMarsh's picture
PaulMarsh
Offline
Joined: 26-09-03
May 15 2004 12:57
Quote:

Seriously, i'd like to see how a bunch of macho boxer assholes going round and beating up a bunch of kids for breaking into their cars has anything to do with class struggle?

john

Er ......the fact they are all working class, and they are the victims of anti-social crime.

knightrose
Offline
Joined: 8-11-03
May 16 2004 13:53

Just had a look at this discussion for the first time in ages.

eek

I notice that I forgot to link to the Organise site from manc AF. If someone would send me the link, it'll get done pronto(ish)

cantdocartwheels's picture
cantdocartwheels
Offline
Joined: 15-03-04
May 18 2004 17:42
PaulMarsh wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
Seriously, i'd like to see how a bunch of macho boxer assholes going round and beating up a bunch of kids for breaking into their cars has anything to do with class struggle?

john

Er ......the fact they are all working class, and they are the victims of anti-social crime.

yeah, but so are the kids

i don't see how beating up a bunch of kids (who I would suspect would be from a lower social background than the professional boxers) is going to help anyone

i'm just confused as to what you think would be gained by professional working class picking on unskilled working class for stealing...and yes there is a major difference

i mean, its stealing for crying outloud, while petty theft is useless and misdirected, it exemplifies class struggle, to crack down on it with such extreme measures is hardly likely to make people respect the anarchist movement, it makes us look like a bunch of liberals...no offence intended

john