Class War split, Aufheben/theory
Sep 24 2004 12:32
Here's a link to an article in reply to Aufheben, containing analysis and theory, including testimony from prisoners.
Well, what do you think?
Sep 24 2004 14:12
#2
True Aufheben are irrelevant, just like the IWCA but that has been the dominant discussion on these boards recently. The debate with them was because it clarifies our and their politics, I am ok with it...
I put it on the AF board for a few reasons; to counter the argument that Class War has no theory, and the following is speculation only, but if there were members of the AF who thought like Aufheben, or a bit like them, then this was a challenge to them... as I've heard 'anarchists' come up with criticisms of Class War not disimilar to Aufheben.
Sep 25 2004 08:48
#3
...Here's a link to an article...
Hi gangster,
Were's the link?
In what way are the AF's ideas and theories like Aufheben? (or even a bit like them). There are fundamental differences — Aufheben are Marxists.
Sep 25 2004 21:58
#4
Year zero - whoops! Here's the link;
http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/animal.html
I never said that the Af and Aufheben had similar politics - i said if (emphasis on 'if' ) there were AF members who thought like Aufheben...
Sep 26 2004 05:49
#5
gangster wrote:
Year zero - whoops! Here's the link;http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/animal.html
.
I used to take them seriously till I read their dogmatic text (aufheben 10 ?) on the naZionist conflict with the Palestinians.
Sep 26 2004 09:50
#6
I used to take Aufheben seriously til i met one of them! Seeing what a dogmatic Marxist prick he was I stared reading Aufheben a bit more critically and thought there is often good stuff in it their Marxist ideology does make them come up with crap at times.
And back to CW and Aufheben I think Aufheben published an article when CW voted to fold that was basically a sectarian gloat. But then what do you expect from Marxists pricks?
Sep 26 2004 09:57
#7
Cheers for the link gangster. Sorry, I didn't mean to distort your question.
There's a lot of text to get through, then the replies to the replies...
I liked the ideas in some of the issues of Aufheben and they may well have influenced my political outlook as have some theories of the 'ultra-left' etc.
I like the idea of taking the best of any set of ideas and scrapping the rubbish, from Marxism and anarchism.
Sep 26 2004 19:11
#8
Hi everybody - You'd be surprised at how many people there are who think Aufheben are elitist... Even from those you wouldn't expect.
Sep 27 2004 00:26
#9
I just read that CW article, tell me that's not for real? How many years did it take to come up with that? Is it deliberately badly written and badly argued for proletarian credibility?
BTW, Aufheben's not elitist. Just 'cos yous can't understand all of it doesn't make it elitist. It's not setting itself up as a revolutionary organisation, it's just an analysis which may help some people deploy their energies in more revolutionary directions. Class War is a screaming demand for journals like Aufheben.
Anyway, fuck all that theory pish, anybody up for liberating Ireland with an enormous pot of bovril? Wankers.
Sep 27 2004 02:55
#10
wheres the link?
and what was dogmatic about their nationalism piece?
i thought it was a fucking half decent attempt to put the israel palestine issue into somesort of class context rather than niavely gob off about anti imperialism.
oh well i suppouse the bastards did go and muddy the waters with that mad class analysis nonsense, completely irresponsible when theres perfectly good one dimensional national liberation struggles to be supported. 
Quote:
naZionist conflict with the Palestinians
just noticed that, im no defender of zionism but to equate it to nazism is fucking stupid and adds nothing in the way of understanding the situation.
Sep 27 2004 02:57
#11
Quote:
wheres the link?
It's five posts down you tube.
Sep 30 2004 22:21
#12
Wayne wrote:
I just read that CW article, tell me that's not for real? How many years did it take to come up with that? Is it deliberately badly written and badly argued for proletarian credibility?
BTW, Aufheben's not elitist. Just 'cos yous can't understand all of it doesn't make it elitist. It's not setting itself up as a revolutionary organisation, it's just an analysis which may help some people deploy their energies in more revolutionary directions. Class War is a screaming demand for journals like Aufheben.
The article was written as a letter, Aufheben autonomously put it on the web. I agree it doesn't flow but we are not full time paid professionals... As for proletarian cred, the theory contained within has got it even if the language used hasn't... AS for Aufhebens' elitism, the evidence is contained in the article, we just disagree as to its presence... As for 'understanding' all of it, that's just a ridiculous thing to say...
Oct 16 2004 11:13
#13
WHat a fucking ridiculoous article, i mean the whole things is badly argued and full of assumptions and inaccuracies. Dismissing a lot of aufehebens comments as ''right wing propaganda'', without even making an effort to prove it, but the worst line is probably
''I can picture an activist trying to interest my mother in the Aufheben magazine, and she would politely say "take it back to your University where it belongs"
The 2 main problems with this are that
1) No-one in their right mind goes around selling copies of aufheben. Its designed for people who already have developed class struggle politics, thats the whole fucking point of it.
2) I hate to break your fantasy bubble here but far less than 1% of grannies read Class War either
john
Oct 21 2004 16:53
#14
Deleted cos of Error logging in
Oct 21 2004 16:58
#15
cantdocartwheels wrote:
WHat a fucking ridiculoous article, i mean the whole things is badly argued and full of assumptions and inaccuracies. Dismissing a lot of aufehebens comments as ''right wing propaganda'', without even making an effort to prove it, but the worst line is probably
''I can picture an activist trying to interest my mother in the Aufheben magazine, and she would politely say "take it back to your University where it belongs"
The 2 main problems with this are that
1) No-one in their right mind goes around selling copies of aufheben. Its designed for people who already have developed class struggle politics, thats the whole fucking point of it.
2) I hate to break your fantasy bubble here but far less than 1% of grannies read Class War either Mr. Green
john
Way to miss the point dogbreath.... Yeah, it wasn't written perfectly but the points it makes are valid ones... you can't critisize Class War for being popular - IF YOU YOURSELF HAVE UNPOPULAR forms of propaganda... (the arguments not reciprocally applied).... As for your point 2 it is truly bizarre, first you construct a straw man, and then burn him. Your intellectual prowess impresses me (not). We did say we had an effective form of propaganda for prisoners though, which Aufheben DOESN'T....
Oct 21 2004 21:16
#16
Quote:
Your intellectual prowess impresses me (not).
ur wit likewise impresses me (not). Fuck sake stop watching those fucking Olsen twins movies and u might be able to formulate a wittier response, perhaps u should check out Aufheben's article "The revol68,Wayne Tendency and the F word as revolutionary modus operandi."
Oct 24 2004 20:09
#17
revol68 wrote:
Quote:
Your intellectual prowess impresses me (not).ur wit likewise impresses me (not). Fuck sake stop watching those fucking Olsen twins movies and u might be able to formulate a wittier response, perhaps u should check out Aufheben's article "The revol68,Wayne Tendency and the F word as revolutionary modus operandi."
Durrrr.... What's that word.... oh yes here it is BOLLOCKS 
I think Aufeheben are absoloutely fucking irrelevant, and you would be better served doing something useful with your time rather than debating with them. The washing up?
I also fail to see why you put this on the AF board.