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Manchester Gay Pride critique // transexual trainwreck // philosophy of science [moved from AF forum]

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Spikymike
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Aug 25 2008 17:14
Manchester Gay Pride critique // transexual trainwreck // philosophy of science [moved from AF forum]

The annual Gay Pride parade in Manchester is , and has been for some years, a pretty appalling spectacle of all that's worst about capitalist equality, sponsored by an alliance of the local state, big business and the local pink pound.

It has justifiably come under attack before from radicals and this year an enthusiastic group of young gay and lesbian radicals had another go, disrupting the opening ceremony and less succesfully intervening on the parade itself. (See Indimedia - North)

Better this year though was an attempt to articulate some of that criticism by the AF with it's special bulletin 'What's Wrong With Angry'. (See AF Web site).

This was about the only political criticism around at all and may well have an impact because of that. The parade organisers do there best to cut out any attempt to politicise anything around the issues of sexuality and social conformism.

Although I thought the bulletin was good and I helped give it out on the parade, I thought there were still some tensions between the different articles themes of, on the one hand 'liberation' versus 'equality' and on the other, the continuing oppression and discrimination of gays and lesbians here and in other countries. Was there also a hint of 'moralising' in the attack on 'gay marriage' given the many hetresexual anarchists who marry under various pressures?

Also who was the target of this bulletin, given that for many gay and lesbian workers capitalist equality is all they have ever aspired to anyway. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since the heady days of the Gay Liberation Front, but perhaps there is a minority, bigger than our tiny handful of protestors, who are searching for a more radical critique?

There is probably more that can be written to demonstrate how capitalist consumerism and state organisations (and indeed trade unions) seek to use the promotion of gay and lesbian equality as a camouflage for their general exploitation and oppresion of all workers.

I think the tactic of joining the parade with critical banners etc was misplaced , as inevitably any criticism was swamped, but hopefully other interventions were more worthwhile. (Probably as pointless was the post parade 'attack' on the handful of christian nutters still protesting, given they were generally viewed as such by all the other thousands of spectators).

I'd be interested in knowing what other AF and other pro-revolutionaries thought of this particular bulletin and the more general question of the scope for political intervention in the Gay and Lesbian scene as opposed to more general pro revolutionary intervention in other struggles.

edgewaters
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Aug 26 2008 03:36
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I'd be interested in knowing what other AF and other pro-revolutionaries thought of this particular bulletin and the more general question of the scope for political intervention in the Gay and Lesbian scene

Haven't you answered your own question? : " ... for many gay and lesbian workers capitalist equality is all they have ever aspired to anyway ..."

My experience is that the gay community's political stance is predominantly simple social liberalism - they are not particularly more radical than any other segment of society. Things may have been different once, but that seems to be the contemporary reality. Additionally, the gay community fosters an illusion of common interest just like nationalist self-determination movements - but without even a hint of the things which somewhat mitigate that in the latter, like a desire for local autonomy or alternate modes of production, a critique of global exploitation, etc

Any political intervention should recognize that the gay community is not particularly any different from any other community of workers in terms of class struggle, despite appearances. Social liberalism, despite adopting a critical stance when useful, is not truly a criticism of capitalism, only a mechanism by which it is reconstituted and new forms of reactionary elements are generated. There may be a minority who are looking for a more radical answer - but I'd hazard a guess, probably not signifigantly more than any other community.

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Aug 26 2008 10:31

Not got much time to respond to this right now, but briefly:

Weeler wrote:
Would anarchists show up at any other cultural event and criticise it for not challenging capitalism, or is it that the AF had some idea of the gay community as a revolutionary fracture within society?

Ask leading questions much?

The criticisms being made of pride by a number of groups within the queer "community" (ech, I hate that word) were a fair bit more complex than that and related to groups like Stonewall working with the council to exclude transgender people, working class queers (£20 to set foot in the village during Pride, for fucks sake) and radical elements of the queer community. The intervention suffered from being somewhat disorganised and incoherent, due to it's ad hoc nature, but I still think it's worth commenting on this kind of stuff and a few people seemed up for a more coherent campaign on this.

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Aug 26 2008 11:39

I appreciate Mike what you're saying and perhaps in some areas the bulletin does fall short, but what we had was four sides of A4 paper, not a theoretical journal, so within the obvious limittations I think the bulletin is fine. That's not so gloss over the obvious omission of something that provides a direct answer to the problems LGBTQ individuals face and a clear message that capitalism can never accomodate liberation of LGBTQ peoples. This is something we can and will work on.

As for our intervention in Pride, the main parade was never meant as some sort of climax event where by Anarchists, Queers and our likeminded comrades would make some huge impact that would rock the foundations of Pride, what is was though was a refreshing reminder to the Pride organisers (and i daresay much more importantly, tro the actual Pride attendees themselves) that Pride does have a meaning outside of getting pissed and having a good time, I therefore think what occured on Saturday was very successful, I honestly never spoke to a single person that day who failed to agree with our points about Pride being a protest.

The Pride march was preluded by a fantastic intervention at the opening ceremony as well as myself and other anarcho activists attempting to gain entry to pride on the friday and recording what the responce of the stewards were. Then our activism continued after the march on the sunday night when several comrades did a distribution of a wide variety of anti-marketisation propaganda outside of the villiage.

I take on board what you say, but hope you'll keep in mind that with the limitations we had regarding what we could actually do on the march, (much of which we distincivly challenged and broke the 'rules' anyways), I think our intervention went well and what come from it was not only something to think about for many Pride attendees and viewers, but great propaganda for many non-Pride goers to watch and enjoy. It's a great foundation for next years intervention, but I assure you this is not simply reactive politics, but something that local Manchester Queer activists(and beyond no doubt) will be taking a completely proactive apprach to.

Ste Monaghan
www.afed.org.uk

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 26 2008 12:42

weeler, no need to be a dick about it. however, the idea that pride should be a protest for anything more than bourgeois equality does seem to rely on the idea there is something inherently revolutionary about (some) sexuality. i mean the fact pride is mostly "getting pissed and having a good time" suggests it's succeeded insofar as it was a protest for this equality (not that prejudice/discrimination no longer exists, but that it's now pride being protested by fringe religious nuts rather than having to protest against capital and the state).

of course it's true you can't have gay liberation under capitalism, because you can't have liberation under capitalism. but surely pride was never about demanding communism? and i see no reason why it should be unless you think who you like to fuck has a bearing on overthrowing capital? Reich/Brinton have a lot to answer for...

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 26 2008 13:11

yeah, and i largely share your criticisms. i'm not sure how an antagonistic relationship to capital can be rooted in who you fuck (as opposed to an antagonistic relationship to religious/'family values' sections of the bourgeoisie, and thus pushing for bourgeois equality at best). like i said above, this seems to be related to the 60s Reich/Brinton argument that capital requires sexual repression, but i think this has been falsified by subsequent developments, of which the 'recuperation' of pride is an example.

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Aug 26 2008 14:30

there is nothing revolutionary about who or where you fuck, so why anyone would expect anything revolutionary from Gay Pride is beyond me. Go on gay pride, piss off homophobes, but don't go whinging about how everyone has sold out to capitalism man, when the fact is the struggle for gay rights was never a struggle against capitalism but a struggle to simply not be persecuted for your sexuality.

The whole anti gay marriage shit is a fucking joke, and i'm shocked that the AF let such shit be published under their name, infact i'd say it's insulting, patronising wank by people trying to crudely hitch their shit lifestylist brand of 'anarchist' politics onto some percieved inherent radicalism of the 'gay community'. I mean what the fuck are these 'queer values' that are wanked on about? The hedonism of gay sauna's and rampant promiscuity, oh how radical, imagine just how antagonistic that is to consumer capitalism, oh wait the free and footlooseness aspects of 'gay culture' (read mostly male gay culture btw) are infact the pinnacle of a capitalism.

And no i'm no moralising about any of this, simply pointing out that it is in no way a threat to capitalism or the rampant atomised commodity culture.

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Aug 26 2008 14:58

What are people complaining about? Our intervention is completely consistant with our core principles where AF members make a class critique within a specific arena of oppression. This kind of action has always been part of the A(C)F's way of working - that at the same time as recognising that capitalism is at the basis of oppression, we also recognise also that sexism, racism and anti-gay predjudice are real oppressions that have to be actively contested in a pre-revolutionary and even post-revolutionary world (as we adjust to life after capitalism and the state).

AF Aims and Principles, point 3.

Quote:
We believe that fighting racism and sexism is as important as other aspects of the class struggle. Anarchist-Communism cannot be achieved while sexism and racism still exist. In order to be effective in their struggle against their oppression both within society and within the working class, women, lesbians and gays, and black people may at times need to organise independently. However, this should be as working class people as cross-class movements hide real class differences and achieve little for them. Full emancipation cannot be achieved without the abolition of capitalism.

http://www.afed.org.uk/aims.html

The result of this intervention has encouraged more LGBTQ to take a class struggle perspective - so a job well done.

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Aug 26 2008 15:02
little_brother wrote:
What are people complaining about? Our intervention is completely consistant with our core principles where AF members make a class critique within a specific arena of oppression. This kind of action has always been part of the A(C)F's way of working - that at the same time as recognising that capitalism is at the basis of oppression, we also recognise also that sexism, racism and anti-gay predjudice are real oppressions that have to be actively contested in a pre-revolutionary and even post-revolutionary world (as we adjust to life after capitalism and the state).

AF Aims and Principles, point 3.

Quote:
We believe that fighting racism and sexism is as important as other aspects of the class struggle. Anarchist-Communism cannot be achieved while sexism and racism still exist. In order to be effective in their struggle against their oppression both within society and within the working class, women, lesbians and gays, and black people may at times need to organise independently. However, this should be as working class people as cross-class movements hide real class differences and achieve little for them. Full emancipation cannot be achieved without the abolition of capitalism.

http://www.afed.org.uk/aims.html

The result of this intervention has encouraged more LGBTQ to take a class struggle perspective - so a job well done.

People are complaining because the bulletin had alot of shit in it that betrayed a really shit understanding of capitalism and a lot of patronsing assumptions about the 'gay community'.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 26 2008 15:09
little_brother wrote:
at the same time as recognising that capitalism is at the basis of oppression, we also recognise also that sexism, racism and anti-gay predjudice are real oppressions that have to be actively contested

i don't disagree with this, but under capitalism these struggles are struggles for bourgeois equality (preferable to bourgeois inequality). as revol mentioned, the bulletin seems to assume 'the gay community' has some kind of betrayed revolutionary agency beyond this, which is what's attracting the criticism.

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little_brother
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Aug 26 2008 15:26

This might depend on whether the perception here is that AF comrades are parachuting in on an issue, or whether they are part of a community that is being contested from the inside (against cross class alliances). This would also answer the point about whether this might be patronising or not. For AF the act of contesting oppressions (with an eye on total emancipation) is revolutionary, in the same way that the feminism or civil rights movement can be seen to have a revolutionary element, obviously recognising that capitalism is at the root of maintaining oppressions (if not the original source/cause of them - we can't forget the church here). The social revolution is a lot more that getting rid of capitalism, its about transforming our lives with the promise of ultimate freedom.

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Aug 26 2008 15:36
little_brother wrote:
This might depend on whether the perception here is that AF comrades are parachuting in on an issue, or whether they are part of a community that is being contested from the inside (against cross class alliances). This would also answer the point about whether this might be patronising or not. For AF the act of contesting oppressions (with an eye on total emancipation) is revolutionary, in the same way that the feminism or civil rights movement can be seen to have a revolutionary element, obviously recognising that capitalism is at the root of maintaining oppressions (if not the original source/cause of them - we can't forget the church here). The social revolution is a lot more that getting rid of capitalism, its about transforming our lives with the promise of ultimate freedom.

"Ultimate Freedom" lolz!!!111!!1

Seriously though the whole analysis of capitalism and the 'gay community' is a joke in that bulletin and it doesn't change one iota if it's wrriten by gays or straights. the whole point is thta there is no 'gay community' beyond a temporal common interest in resisting homophobia and even this temporal interest is inevitably fractured along a multitude of lines, infact as this temporal 'community' gets closer to it's goal of sexual equality it begins to negate itself. This is what we are seeing in the major western cities Gay Prides.

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Aug 26 2008 15:40
little_brother wrote:
This might depend on whether the perception here is that AF comrades are parachuting in on an issue, or whether they are part of a community that is being contested from the inside (against cross class alliances).

to an extent, and i confess i'm ignorant of specific oppressions suffered by gay workers (other than presumably homophobia, which i've not come accross living in liberal hippy brighton). although the impression i got from the bulletin was that pride was selling out some gay revolutionary subject, which is where i'd disagree. i don't think struggles for equality (or for that matter many workplace disputes) are revolutionary because they pose no fundamental threat to capital. but i do think they're often necessary as they impact on our every day lives as workers under capitalism.

if your point is that liberation and (bourgeois) equality are not the same thing, and that some gay workers are targetting anarchist-communist propaganda at others then i agree that's not a bad thing. but like i say that's not really the impression i got, but then i'm not really the target market.

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Aug 26 2008 15:53

also transgender is a pile of shite, that rather than actually deconstructing gender essentialism generally only reinforces it.

"oh i feel like a man etc", I mean what the fuck does that even mean, that you like sports, drinking and hanging out in the pub rather than shopping for shoes? Big deal, doesn't mean you need fucking hormones to shrink your tits and grow a tache.

"I'm in the wrong body etc etc" brilliant, sexual and social pressure and repression has led you to believe that somehow magically you are in the wrong body, and instead of trying to understand how such self loathing could come about (as we would with cosmetic surgery) and how it's driven by capitalism we'll instead embrace it as a basis for politcal activity.

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Aug 26 2008 15:50
madashell wrote:
...and related to groups like Stonewall working with the council to exclude transgender people, working class queers (£20 to set foot in the village during Pride, for fucks sake) and radical elements of the queer community.

I presume they had entertainment, and whatever. It would imagine that £20 is quite cheap for a day's entertainment by UK standards. It wouldn't get you in to a top football match, would it? Maybe excluding the very poor, but not really excluding the working class.

Devrim

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Aug 26 2008 15:52

Well it seems to have struck a chord in Bradford... http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/08/407559.html
and brought up record of previous intervention http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/08/407474.html?c=on#c202794
Well yes, fracture would be a feature of anti-capitalist intervention if people start recognising and acting on class divisions. Where in the bulletin does it say that that a cross-class community should be maintained?

Thrashing_chomsky
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Aug 26 2008 15:55

[url=Enter URL here]http://gaymafiawatch.wordpress.com[/url]

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Aug 26 2008 16:05
little_brother wrote:
Where in the bulletin does it say that that a cross-class community should be maintained?

i don't think anyone's saying it does. as i've said, the impression it gave me is that there's something inherently subversive about fucking in certain ways which means Pride should be more anticapitalist than get-pissed-and-party. In this respect i don't see why pride is anymore ripe for intervention than any other cultural event participated in by working class people - if you don't think it is, but some members were simply issuing propaganda targetted at their own 'community' then ok, but demanding pride be a protest seems to me to go beyond this. Would you leaflet the notting hill carnival saying it shouldn't be a party but a protest against state racism? Or that attending a football match should be a protest against the commodification of communal activity?

i'm not claiming the AF are being class collaborationists or anything.

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Aug 26 2008 16:20

Seems much of this discussion has degenerated into either dislike for the word 'community', in which case it's mere semantics. Get over it. Or more curiously blunt Queer/Transphobia, take this cunt below:

revol68 wrote:
also transgender is a pile of shite, that rather than actually deconstructing gender essentialism generally only reinforces it.

"oh i feel like a man etc", I mean what the fuck does that even mean, that you like sports, drinking and hanging out in the pub rather than shopping for shoes? Big deal, doesn't mean you need fucking hormones to shrink your tits and grow a tache.

"I'm in the wrong body etc etc" brilliant, sexual and social pressure and repression has led you to believe that somehow magically you are in the wrong body, and instead of trying to understand how such self loathing could come about (as we would with cosmetic surgery) and how it's driven by capitalism we'll instead embrace it as a basis for politcal activity.

I've never read anything so offensive. Ever.

Can we please keep to constructive political discussion without resorting to such vile discrimmination, the likes of which you'd expect from the BNP.

As for the last post, i quite agree 'Joseph K' there does seem a curious dichotomy in us arguing Pride should be a protest, and the fact that Pride has always been a cross-class advocation of LGBT[Q] rights within a framework dominated by capitalism. However using Pride as a platform to propagandise is nothing new and a tactic that surely isn't questionable in the slightest. What we were doing was reminding LGBTQ peoples:
1) What Pride has degenerated into
2) The increasing marketisation of Pride
3) The inadequacy of much of the existing LGBT rights orginisations, their tactics, their politics and their demands
4) What Pride was established to be and how liberation rather than 'gay equalty' is the only answer to remedy the homophobia/transphobia and other discrimmination we as a community face.

What was were explicity NOT doing was saying 'let's save Pride!' not were we suggesting that Pride has ever been a great protest that would save the LGBTQ community. We were suggesting that Prides commercialisation is representitive of the inadequacies of current LGBT priority campaigns and has been allowed to occur as a direct consequence of such wet demands as 'equal marriage' and such.

Can i also add that much of what has been said here is constructive debate, but some users have resorted instantly to blunt sectarian remarks, overt discrimmination or simple argumentitive slurs. Can we keeep debate constructive please?

Ste Monaghan
www.afed.org.uk

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Aug 26 2008 16:26

revol, the random anti-essentialist transgender argument is off-topic, start a thread if you want to have that one out again.

leaving work now, will try and reply to the rest later.

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Aug 26 2008 16:32

you've never read anything so offensive, really?

How about this, transgender is not a valid politics, it's essentially a pathology perfectly in keeping with the commodified post modern culture of western capitalism, in which all values, judgements and analysis must never encrouch on the holy sanctity of the grand moral imperative of "I want".

I mean why is it as radicals we are suppoused to analysis patriarchy, capitalism and racism when examining how men and women are unhappy in their bodies and feel compelled towards cosmestic surgery, skin whitening/bleaching or whatever yet if someone says they 'are in the wrong body' or simply 'want to be a man/woman' we are suppoused to suspend all critical analysis and just demand their right to invasive surgery and strong hormones?

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Aug 26 2008 16:34
Joseph K. wrote:
revol, the random anti-essentialist transgender argument is off-topic, start a thread if you want to have that one out again.

leaving work now, will try and reply to the rest later.

sorry how is it off topic when the topic is about the bulletin and the bulletin argues for transgender politics, just as it argues against gay marriage? It's as on topic as anything else in this thread.

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Aug 26 2008 16:47

I'm not entering into debate with you about this because to be quite frank you're not worth my time, don't marr this thread with your dogshit politics.

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Aug 26 2008 16:57
Anarchyisorder wrote:
I'm not entering into debate with you about this because to be quite frank you're not worth my time, don't marr this thread with your dogshit politics.

what you mean you don't actually have an answer, do you?

Don't get me wrong I'll stand up for the rights of any transgender person to be free from bullying, persecution or whatever but I have real problems with transgender as a politics, just as I would someone with breast implants, I wouldn't however base a political stance on the right of people to have breast implants.

Outside of augmented biological essentialism the only arguments I've came across are those that say transgenderism is essentially another form of body modification requiring no apriori grounding (ie i'm trapped in the wrong body) ala piercing or tatoo's and but that is quite a rare position and again simply dodges any analysis, again in the way mostof us wouldn't simply accept with cosmetic surgery or skin bleaching.

knightrose
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Aug 26 2008 17:30
Devrim wrote:
I presume they had entertainment, and whatever. It would imagine that £20 is quite cheap for a day's entertainment by UK standards. It wouldn't get you in to a top football match, would it? Maybe excluding the very poor, but not really excluding the working class.

But it did a pretty good job of excluding young queer kids in Manchester. It wouldn't even get you into a lot of league 2 football matches these days - and strangely they are struggling for supporters.

As far as I know, it's the only Pride in the country that charges admission.

Spikymike
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Aug 26 2008 17:40

I suppose at the end of the day an intervention which does target those gay and lesbian activists who feel a need to challenge capitalism and social and sexual conformism must be userful. I think this bulleting for all it's faults will have engendered some useful discussion amongst these people (and potentially pro-revolutionaries here also).

The bulletin could perhaps have made a more direct attack on those organisations seeking to justify/cover their exploitative roles ie the army, police, banks, local Councils, trade unions etc with their 'equality' agenda and presense on the parade.

Well it is a learning experience so perhaps some calmer debate here will help inform future efforts.

Revol is entitled to raise his points here but as usual start his arguments in his customary 'Mr Angry' manner and just gets everyon'e backs up.

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Aug 26 2008 17:47
Spikymike wrote:

Revol is entitled to raise his points here but as usual start his arguments in his customary 'Mr Angry' manner and just gets everyon'e backs up.

To which I can only retort "What's wrong with angry?". grin

It's a bit rich for people to complain about tone when they've been handing out a bulletin equating gay marriages with joining the NF.

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Aug 26 2008 18:03

I suppose I deserved that come back but the context in which 'angry' is expressed are different I think.

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Aug 26 2008 18:04
revol68 wrote:
Joseph K. wrote:
revol, the random anti-essentialist transgender argument is off-topic, start a thread if you want to have that one out again.

leaving work now, will try and reply to the rest later.

sorry how is it off topic when the topic is about the bulletin and the bulletin argues for transgender politics, just as it argues against gay marriage? It's as on topic as anything else in this thread.

the argument 'for transgender politics' is simply that "instead of Stonewall being a trade mark it should be a battle cry for everyone fighting against homophobia,
and that means transgender people too!" - that doesn't imply an endorsement of essentialist gender politics any more than you saying "I'll stand up for the rights of any transgender person to be free from bullying, persecution or whatever" does. fwiw i largely agree with your argument.

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Aug 26 2008 18:07
Joseph K. wrote:
revol68 wrote:
Joseph K. wrote:
revol, the random anti-essentialist transgender argument is off-topic, start a thread if you want to have that one out again.

leaving work now, will try and reply to the rest later.

sorry how is it off topic when the topic is about the bulletin and the bulletin argues for transgender politics, just as it argues against gay marriage? It's as on topic as anything else in this thread.

the argument 'for transgender politics' is simply that "instead of Stonewall being a trade mark it should be a battle cry for everyone fighting against homophobia,
and that means transgender people too!" - that doesn't imply an endorsement of essentialist gender politics any more than you saying "I'll stand up for the rights of any transgender person to be free from bullying, persecution or whatever" does. fwiw i largely agree with your argument.

but transphobia and homophobia aren't the same and they are criticising Stonewall for not taking up transphobia in itself.

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Aug 26 2008 18:23
Anarchyisorder wrote:
However using Pride as a platform to propagandise is nothing new and a tactic that surely isn't questionable in the slightest. What we were doing was reminding LGBTQ peoples:
1) What Pride has degenerated into
2) The increasing marketisation of Pride
3) The inadequacy of much of the existing LGBT rights orginisations, their tactics, their politics and their demands
4) What Pride was established to be and how liberation rather than 'gay equalty' is the only answer to remedy the homophobia/transphobia and other discrimmination we as a community face.

What was were explicity NOT doing was saying 'let's save Pride!' not were we suggesting that Pride has ever been a great protest that would save the LGBTQ community. We were suggesting that Prides commercialisation is representitive of the inadequacies of current LGBT priority campaigns and has been allowed to occur as a direct consequence of such wet demands as 'equal marriage' and such.

i'd argue the commercialisation of pride represents the success of gay rights insofar as it has only ever been a demand for bourgeois equality. now this isn't a bad thing relative to bourgeois inequality, but now the state has largely granted all workers the right to be exploited equally whoever you like to fuck, and capital has embraced 'the gay community' as yet another demographic, that battle seems to me to have largely been won. like i say i agree freedom (in libertarian communist terms) is more than, in fact opposed to such equality-as-abstract-labour, but i'm not sure what this entails in concrete terms, beyond engagement in class struggle as a means of practically overcoming prejudice through collective action.

basically i don't know how a specifically anarchist/communist queer politics can go beyond this politics of equality; insofar as the actual achievement of such equality would render the queer bit moot, all i can see is pointing out how reality falls short of our supposed equal society, calling the bourgeoisie on their hypocrisy (much of the bulletin does just this; stonewall's silence on transphobia, criminalisation of homosexuality abroad...) i mean there may well be issues that effect gay workers differently to others which may require particular responses, but i'm not sure what these are and i'm none the wiser for reading the bulletin. of course i'm happy to be corrected if i've misunderstood anything through ignorance.

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