FAO technocrats and technocracy sympathisers
May 31 2009 23:53
First of all, i'd like to take this opportunity to introduce myself, i self describe as a socialist technocrat (hence the name) but am strongly influenced by trotsky's 4th international ideologically.
Some people may know me from revleft under the moniker 'ulster socialist'. I, with the assistance of members from the network of European technocrats have started a cross tendency forum for the furtherance of technocratic interests under the name of ACT or anarchist and communist technocrats.
Its purpose is not to replace leftist fora such as this, but to bring together and strengthen all followers of traditional leftist philosophies with that of the technocracy movement.
Please feel free to contribute however you can, there are also a number of moderation positions which i would like to get filled.
Here is the link-
Jun 2 2009 17:19
#2
On noes it's Skynet's bitches!
Jun 5 2009 21:08
#3
Quote:
On noes it's Skynet's bitches!
I did not register here for a flame war.
If you don't have anything constructive or civil to say, i'd rather you kept it to yourself.
How about this- if you think technocracy is wrong, why not say why rather than posting baseless ad hominem and making yourself look like an ignorant jackass?
Jun 5 2009 22:52
#4
Our turf, why dont you step up.
Jun 6 2009 09:49
#5
Quote:
If you don't have anything constructive or civil to say, i'd rather you kept it to yourself.
...
~J.
Jun 6 2009 16:18
#6
What do you mean by "technocrat" and "technocracy"?
Jun 6 2009 22:50
#7
@ treeofjudas, respect to you for being the first to respond with an open mind.
Technocracy is a specific forum of abundancy planning that advocates replacing the price system of capitalism with energy accounting and the exchange of energy vouchers for labour. Since everyone receives the same amount of 'energy credit' it effectively eliminates class society.
The word 'technocracy' effectively means the ruled of the skilled, but that is not to imply it is an elitist or class based system since by skilled it actually pertains to the broader section of the working population. It does advocate the automation of labour, but only as a means to free up people from menial work and allocate them to more productive industries like the sciences and arts. Things like customer service and menial productive work by humans would effectively be done away with; the same for any other work area that can possibly be automated.
If you would like to know more, please register at our forum.
Jun 6 2009 22:51
#8
weeler wrote:
Our turf, why dont you step up.
I am not the one posting in hostility; i beleive the burden is all yours.
Jun 7 2009 00:29
#9
Quote:
Technocracy is a specific forum of abundancy planning that advocates replacing the price system of capitalism with energy accounting and the exchange of energy vouchers for labour.
So technocracy is just planned capitalism where energy is used as currency? Why the fuck would that be an improvement on the present situation? And how the hell would providing everyone equal credit eliminate class society, whatever currency that credit was in?
Go peddle your half-baked trotskyite cyber-punk utopianism elsewhere.
~J.
Jun 7 2009 04:23
#10
weeler wrote:
Our turf, why dont you step up.
HAJIME!!!
Jun 7 2009 10:13
#11
BigLittleJ wrote:
Quote:
Technocracy is a specific forum of abundancy planning that advocates replacing the price system of capitalism with energy accounting and the exchange of energy vouchers for labour.So technocracy is just planned capitalism where energy is used as currency? Why the fuck would that be an improvement on the present situation? And how the hell would providing everyone equal credit eliminate class society, whatever currency that credit was in?
Go peddle your half-baked trotskyite cyber-punk utopianism elsewhere.
~J.
Cyberpunk and utopianism are diametric opposites.
Jun 7 2009 12:57
#12
Cyberpunk is, usually, quite dystopic. Maybe transhumanism is an accusation closer to the truth.
Jun 7 2009 15:19
#13
Cyberpunk is always dytopian; it's high tech, low life.
I believe in tranhumanism but I've no desire for a technocracy, nor would it be necessary.
This would be techno-progressivism, a lot of bureaucracy and a load of liberal 'social change' nonsense.
Jun 7 2009 15:27
#14
Hi you all.
It should be noted that the person from the ACT Forum is doing some original research that is in no way connected to ideas about Technocracy technate design or the general ideas connected.
''''''''''''''''Quote:
Technocracy is a specific forum of abundancy planning that advocates replacing the price system of capitalism with energy accounting and the exchange of energy vouchers for labour. ----------------------------
Not so much... at all. There is no connection to the labor theory of value... which Adam Smith loved so much and the ideas about Technocracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_and_thermodynamics
Mostly people like the Ulster Socialist are profoundly ignorant of any kind of history as to what a Technocracy, as formulated by the Technocracy movement is http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/History%20&%20Purpose-r.htm and for some reason want to associate it with dead letter movements connected with labor values and Communism and Socialism.... but that is the internet for you... full of 3rd and 4th. rate.... and that is being kind,... 'thinkers'.
Also his statement that '''''Since everyone receives the same amount of 'energy credit' it effectively eliminates class society.''''''''''''''''''''''
Again no connection to reality. A Price System is the system used in socialism and what passed for communism, and as said 'labor' is an antique idea now. Energy accounting forms the basis of this idea.
Noted also.... there are no 'energy credit's in the system developed by scientists to replace the Price System. ... so that is misconstruing also the concept. Energy accounting is not a credit or debit system.
Also saying that ''''''''''The word 'technocracy' effectively means the ruled of the skilled'''''''''''''''''' is bullshit...
The actual concept is connected with a form of 'administration by science' , so they have that wrong also. It is not another people oligarchy concept of rulers and ruled.
Anyway, you also may notice that outside the cult of people on NET... Network of European Technocrats and Act.... there is no support for the mixed up and disconnected thoughts expressed by those people, that have basically mostly nothing to do with actual concepts connected to technocracy design as a form of government as developed by the Technical Alliance.
Here is a place to learn some actual information about this concept if any here may be interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_(bureaucratic) - and the actual ideas are interesting, but not connected to the ACT forum in any way.
Jun 7 2009 18:03
#15
Gregg Howards wrote:
'labor' is an antique idea now.
but that is the internet for you... full of 3rd and 4th. rate.... and that is being kind,... 'thinkers'.
You said it, bub!
Technocracy, with or sans a prefix, is a load of shite. End of story.
Jun 7 2009 18:33
#16
Pardon. That is not what I said. Technocracy design as an idea is brilliant.
It just is not connected to what the poster was describing in any way .. shape .. or form.
More information as to the actual movement that was hugely popular in the 30's United States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_movement
Jun 7 2009 18:49
#17
So "ACT" or "anarchist and communist technocrats" are in favour of a "a form of government in which scientists and technical experts are in administrative or decision making management positions", you go on to quote an embyonic organisation of industrialist capitalists who liked the idea in the USA in the 1930s - you don't hold an interest in opposition to statism and capitalism.
Your group of 31 wannabe dictators are neither anarchist nor communist - so just piss off - middle class twats!
Jun 7 2009 18:52
#18
Socialist Technocrat wrote:
Cyberpunk and utopianism are diametric opposites.
Oh, that showed me. Clearly my argument is reduced to shambles by this devastating attack. Touche, my friend.
~J.
Jun 7 2009 19:33
#19
It was me that said that.
Gregg, that's not what you said? There was two verbatim quotes from yourself, either you've popped some pills post the message and can't remember or you're not keeping up.
Technocracy is a load of shite, whether some mentalist from Ulster attaches himself to it or not.
Jun 7 2009 19:59
#20
BigLittleJ wrote:
So technocracy is just planned capitalism where energy is used as currency? Why the fuck would that be an improvement on the present situation?
Because technocracy does not advocate the private ownership of means of production. That is one major way it differs from capitalism. Technocracy advocates egalitarianism.
This video articulates the energy accounting system better than i can. Please watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogat7OIaMkQ&feature=channel
BigLittleJ wrote:
And how the hell would providing everyone equal credit eliminate class society, whatever currency that credit was in?
Energy accounting and money are not equal, please watch the above link.
BigLittleJ wrote:
Go peddle your half-baked trotskyite cyber-punk utopianism elsewhere.~J.
If Marx had listened to the ones who told him to peddle his half baked egalitarian nonsense elsewhere what would have happened?
I won't leave because you tell me to.
Jaque wrote:
Your group of 31 wannabe dictators are neither anarchist nor communist -
Well i can't speak on behalf of the other 30 members, but you're more than welcome to register and tell them why you beleive that. I personally think youre wrong but obviously you havent built a case to back up your opinion.
Saying we arent opposed to statism or capitalism isnt a case because this is a craven falsehood. Technocracy replaces the nation state with a 'technate' which is an entirely different concept. Scientists and engineers will not constitute an elite society but equally cultural conditioning would be altered in that humans engaging in menial unskilled labour would be regarded for what it is- backward, alienating, brutal and inefficient.
Speaking as a worker condemned to wage slavery, i have a vested interest in the elimination of capitalism but moreover the elimination of the wastage of non utilised extraneous labour (ie automation).
Jaque wrote:
so just piss off - middle class twats!
You should be extremely careful when you attack someone on the basis of their economic conditioning- You don't know me and i can assure you i'm not middle class in the least so i find it highly ignorant to be dismissed in such a way.
Jun 7 2009 20:06
#21
wikipedia wrote:
Technocrats believe that politicians and businessmen could not manage a complex, rapidly advancing industrial society. The technocrats proposed replacing politicians with scientists and engineers who had the technical expertise to manage the economy. This would allow social and economic institutions to reap the full benefits technological progress had made possible.
Holy shit, this stuff is even more preposterous than the garbage the first guy was suggesting.
~J.
Jun 7 2009 20:11
#22
Quote:
It was me that said that.
Whoops, sorry. Popped too many pills today.
~J.
Jun 7 2009 20:45
#23
BigLittleJ wrote:
wikipedia wrote:
Technocrats believe that politicians and businessmen could not manage a complex, rapidly advancing industrial society. The technocrats proposed replacing politicians with scientists and engineers who had the technical expertise to manage the economy. This would allow social and economic institutions to reap the full benefits technological progress had made possible.Holy shit, this stuff is even more preposterous than the garbage the first guy was suggesting.
~J.
Most leftists are sensible enough to take wikipedia articles with an extra large mountain of salt.
Why not debate with actual technocrats rather than believe something that was probably written by a right wing hack?
Jun 7 2009 21:11
#24
Socialist Technocrat wrote:
Quote:
On noes it's Skynet's bitches!I did not register here for a flame war.
which does beg the question of why you did register here - or rather why you thought this site would be a good place to peddle "technocracy"?
Jun 7 2009 21:20
#25
Obviously this is a troll site of people that enjoy clacking their keys and have very little interest in following information that their noses do not lead them to, which they think they already know.
Any one with a brain can absorb new information... but this site apparently is troll city.
If there is any real interest in the subject though here is more info. http://www.eoearth.org/article/Biophysical_economics
Jun 7 2009 21:23
#26
Gregg Howards wrote:
Obviously this is a troll site of people that enjoy clacking their keys and have very little interest in following information that their noses do not lead them to, which they think they already know.Any one with a brain can absorb new information... but this site apparently is troll city.
If there is any real interest in the subject though here is more info. http://www.eoearth.org/article/Biophysical_economics
You seem very sure of yourself. You should so talk to NoXion and Serpent on the matter.
Jun 7 2009 21:33
#27
Socialist Technocrat wrote:
Technocracy advocates egalitarianism.
Socialist Technocrat wrote:
The word 'technocracy' effectively means the ruled (sic!) of the skilled
your logic is compelling.
Jun 7 2009 21:36
#28
john wrote:
Socialist Technocrat wrote:
Quote:
On noes it's Skynet's bitches!I did not register here for a flame war.
which does beg the question of why you did register here - or rather why you thought this site would be a good place to peddle "technocracy"?
Technocracy provides a management form for post scarcity economics.
It does not advocate class, social chauvinism or reward/punishment on the basis of social position.
If you think of socialism as a 'dvd player', then technocracy is the 'instruction manual' that comes with it.
Jun 7 2009 21:36
#29
Vlad336 wrote:
Socialist Technocrat wrote:
Technocracy advocates egalitarianism.Socialist Technocrat wrote:
The word 'technocracy' effectively means the ruled (sic!) of the skilledyour logic is compelling.
The working class =skilled
bourgeioise=/= skilled.
Jun 7 2009 21:41
#30
Socialist Technocrat wrote:
john wrote:
Socialist Technocrat wrote:
Quote:
On noes it's Skynet's bitches!I did not register here for a flame war.
which does beg the question of why you did register here - or rather why you thought this site would be a good place to peddle "technocracy"?
Technocracy provides a management form for post scarcity economics.
It does not advocate class, social chauvinism or reward/punishment on the basis of social position.
If you think of socialism as a 'dvd player', then technocracy is the 'instruction manual' that comes with it.
Have you ever read Trotsky? You'd love him.
oh jesus.