I have left the ICC (Devrim)

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Devrim
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Jul 8 2011 00:19
I have left the ICC (Devrim)

Just as a point of information, I am no longer a member of the ICC. I don’t intend to comment on this at the moment. A couple of years ago when some people left the ICC in Turkey, we decided not to coment on it for six months in order to allow people to calm down a little about something that they were, at the time, very angry about. To us it seemed a much more sensible approach to adopt than that of mutual slagings of and recriminations that have charecterised the communist left in the past years. When the six months had passed it all seemed a lot less important than it did at the time. I don’t think that I will have nothing to say about it come the new year, but to me in principle the approach that we took at the time seemed to be a good one, and I don’t see amy reason to depart from it. After all, it is not as if the working class is clinging to every word that the communist left says, and need to understand why I left immediately.

Devrim

Battlescarred
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Jul 8 2011 07:34

I respect your silence on this. I hope you continue to contribute to libcom to which you have made many valuable contributions.

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Serge Forward
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Jul 8 2011 08:59

I didn't even know you were in the ICC embarrassed Mind you, I've not been on here for quite a while, so whaddo I know? Anyway, all the best to you feller.

I'm sure our Devrim will stick around, Battledscarred.

Cassady
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Jul 8 2011 11:26

The ICC will undoubtedly be a weaker and less appealing organisation without the voice and presence of Devrim. Together with other younger members he gave many of us hope that there might be some attempt by the ICC to come to grips with the sectarianism and monolithism which has dominated the orgaisation for 30 odd years. He always was a rational and sane voice inside the ICC and he didn't seem to have a sectarian bone in his body.

posi
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Jul 8 2011 12:28

I would second that.

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Arbeiten
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Jul 8 2011 15:43

Wow, the 6 months silence approach is a really mature way to deal with this sort of thing. That should become communist dogma. I might try it in my everyday life as well!

Edit: I'm not being sarcastic

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Devrim
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Jul 11 2011 07:17
Serge Forward wrote:
I didn't even know you were in the ICC embarrassed Mind you, I've not been on here for quite a while, so whaddo I know? Anyway, all the best to you feller.

Yes, for about two and a half years.

Devrim

LBird
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Jul 11 2011 08:00
Devrim wrote:
I have left the ICC

Well, I hope you don't leave us here on LibCom, mate.

You're one of the most non-sectarian, rational and influential posters here.

You're also a fine model for us argumentative loonies to try to emulate.

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jef costello
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Jul 11 2011 20:39

Sounds like a very sensible way to handle a departure, I'll be interested to see the reasons when they do emerge.

mciver
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Dec 6 2011 00:28

Android, Post 176 from Devrim thread http://libcom.org/forums/feedback-content/locking-topics-banning-people-26112011?page=5

Quote:
mciver wrote:
I say this because nobody will believe that one fine morning four years ago you [Devrim] suddenly applied for ICC membership and got it that afternoon. For at least a few months before, you must have been something like a 'candidate member', and prior to that something like a 'sympathiser' or 'contact'. So that takes us well into around 5 years of membership negotiations with the ICC

Wrong. The group Devrim was a member of before the ICC, EKS (Internationalist Communist Left) joined the ICC. So there was not a period of being a 'contact' or 'candidate member'.
It is a pity isn't it how facts can inconvenience a rant?

Your lippy tone denotes a left-com groupie or a zealot from another left com sect. It doesn't matter which. And a rash ignoramus to boot, as will be shown below.

Devrim himself states: "I was only in the ICC for four years" http://libcom.org/forums/feedback-content/locking-topics-banning-people-26112011?page=5 (Post 165). From this, we deduce his membership started in the summer of 2007. But the existing facts confirm that the EKS was not 'integrated' at the same time as Devrim.

At around the time (July 2007), Alf posted on Libcom, mentioning the EKS:

Quote:
There will be an article in the next WR. A comrade from Brazil was integrated at the ICC congress in May, making a 'nucleus' of a section rather than a section. At the same time we will continue working with OPOP (who participated at our congress, along with the Korean SPA, the Turkish EKS and, in writing, the Philippine group Internaysialismo) and other groups in Brazil.

http://libcom.org/forums/news/new-icc-section-brazil

This confirms that the Turkish racket EKS was in discussions (towards 'integration') with the ICC already in 2007, around the same time that Devrim claims his ICC membership started.

Finally the EKS joined the ICC in February 2009, after a 'long term process' of integration started at the congress Alf refers to, or before:

(From Enternasyonalist Komünist Sol dissolves to join the International Communist Current)

Quote:
In the first issue of Dünya Devrimi, dated September 2008 we have written: "...the reason we have chosen the name Dünya Devrimi is that we have organizationally entered a direction regarding our international future. Based on our conclusions that a communist organization can't exist on a national or regional level and that communist militants functioning in a locality has to be a part of an internationally centralized communist organization, we have been discussing the platform of the International Communist Current which at the moment has sections in fourteen countries and with whom we have already been working together and in solidarity with, with the perspective of forming a section of this organization in Turkey. Just as there is no room for impatience in any activity of revolutionaries, there is no room for impatience in this process of discussion, clarification and integration into the ICC. An integration made in a hasty and artificial way rather than a solid and organic way would not do any good and we continue the process of integration which we knew to have been a long term process with patience and the purpose of developing real clarity. On the other hand, we are clarifying within this process as well and we feel it would be helpful to draw our activities closer to those of an organization whose political principles as well as conception of an internationally centralized organization we share. For this reason we have found giving the name of ICC papers World Revolution in England, Revolución Mundial in Mexico, Weltrevolution in Germany and Switzerland and Wereld Revolutie in Netherlands to our publication. Also in this context we have found the opportunity to anounce that we are working in order to be integrated into the ICC."
We want to inform our readers with great happiness that as a result of deep discussions held with patience we have been integrated into the International Communist Current and formed the section of the International Communist Current in Turkey named Dünya Devrimi by dissolving our previous group, Enternasyonalist Komünist Sol. Thus Dünya Devrimi is no longer the publication brought out by a small number of militants in one country but is the publication of an organization centralized on the international level.

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2009/03/eks

Sensing cheery undercurrents from moles, Alf proclaimed on Libcom: "... the EKS certainly corresponded to the emergence of new elements. The ICC was basically a product of the 68 upsurge. The EKS is a much newer phenomenon and it's by no means the only one. Does that express something beyond each small group, is it the product of an underlying trend which by its very nature won't often be plainly visible?"

Alf, Feb 16, 2009 Post 85, http://libcom.org/forums/news/eks-dissolved-itself-joined-icc-12022009?page=2 (there were some scathing posts by posters Jura and Mikus, deflating the bombastic and ridiculous self-congratulations of the ICC).

So if there was a 'long term process' of EKS dissolution and integration into the ICC ending in 2009, why not for Devrim, who had joined before, by his own admission, in 2007, not in 2009 as Android would claim? So where does this leave Android's assertion that "... there was not a period of being a 'contact' or 'candidate member'". From the available facts, there must have been. Was the android lying? But how can they lie? Seizing up yes. Maybe a case of sitting too long on the brain chip.

Despite all the above, the earth-shattering factoid about Devrim's time in the ICC (4 or around 5 years?) has no bearing whatsoever on the issue of locking topics or banning people, on the original thread. What does it matter that Devrim was in his clink for 4 years, not 5? Was the shorter delirium beneficial? Unlikely. In any case, my original question was if Devrim could honestly point out one example of a factually untrue thing -- or lie, more to the point -- 'ranted' against the ICC, not about himself. If incorrect facts have been revealed against the ICC, I will correct them after I confirm their inaccuracy. And lies? This ball is on the apparat's court.

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Devrim
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Dec 6 2011 01:26
mciver wrote:
Your lippy tone denotes a left-com groupie or a zealot from another left com sect. It doesn't matter which. And a rash ignoramus to boot, as will be shown below.

Actually he is not.

mciver wrote:
Devrim himself states: "I was only in the ICC for four years" http://libcom.org/forums/feedback-content/locking-topics-banning-people-26112011?page=5 (Post 165). From this, we deduce his membership started in the summer of 2007. But the existing facts confirm that the EKS was not 'integrated' at the same time as Devrim.

At around the time (July 2007), Alf posted on Libcom, mentioning the EKS:

Quote:
There will be an article in the next WR. A comrade from Brazil was integrated at the ICC congress in May, making a 'nucleus' of a section rather than a section. At the same time we will continue working with OPOP (who participated at our congress, along with the Korean SPA, the Turkish EKS and, in writing, the Philippine group Internaysialismo) and other groups in Brazil.

http://libcom.org/forums/news/new-icc-section-brazil

It is my mistake. I wasn't in the ICC for four year. I joined when everybody else in the Turkish section did. Was it only two years. It feels like so much longer.

mciver wrote:
Despite all the above, the earth-shattering factoid about Devrim's time in the ICC (4 or around 5 years?) has no bearing whatsoever on the issue of locking topics or banning people, on the original thread. What does it matter that Devrim was in his clink for 4 years, not 5? Was the shorter delirium beneficial?

As I have said it was two years. When I was writing the other post I just thought that I joined at one international congress and left after another, so it must have been an even number of years, not an odd one like five.

Quote:
Unlikely. In any case, my original question was if Devrim could honestly point out one example of a factually untrue thing -- or lie, more to the point -- 'ranted' against the ICC, not about himself. If incorrect facts have been revealed against the ICC, I will correct them after I confirm their inaccuracy. And lies? This ball is on the apparat's court.

But it was never a question of lies. The whole point was about inaccuracies, and whether they should be deleted.

Devrim

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sabot
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Dec 6 2011 01:29

So whats next for Devrim?

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Tojiah
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Dec 6 2011 05:28

Apparently, immunity from stalking by butt-hurt former ICCers is not one of the benefits of retirement. roll eyes

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Juan Conatz
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Dec 6 2011 02:56

I think this borders online stalking.

bastarx
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Dec 6 2011 04:53

I agree with Juan, despite him obviously being a Chekist smile

Caiman del Barrio
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Dec 6 2011 16:09
Devrim wrote:
I wasn't in the ICC for four year. I joined when everybody else in the Turkish section did. Was it only two years. It feels like so much longer.

I can imagine... groucho

Yorkie Bar
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Dec 6 2011 16:50

What I want to know is how long until Devrim stops dropping hints and gives us the inside scoop on the break up!

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Tojiah
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Dec 6 2011 17:00

He already said he'll talk about it in the new year. You lot can stop pissing your pants in anticipation, now.

S. Artesian
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Dec 7 2011 00:38
Tojiah wrote:
He already said he'll talk about it in the new year. You lot can stop pissing your pants in anticipation, now.

Word.

bastarx
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Dec 7 2011 03:49

McIver on the other thread wrote:

Quote:
I was also impressed with your agile psychological perception of 'vendetta', against a harassed and charitable organisation 'which rarely has members post here', as you acutely observe. A brief calculation on the threads dedicated to the ICC show around 1,200 threads, some with hundreds of posts. All in all, a few thousand posts, by members of the ICC (Alf, Beltov, Ernie, various acolytes, etc), and also about the ICC. A very small proportion of these are by McIver, and only from 2009. I thought this proved your ample arithmetic skills, your careful attention to detail and sensitive grasp of proportions and realities. I also thought your effigy to be artistically awesome, wriggling worms reminding one of Lovecraft, Heinz spaghetti and an unblocked constipation. A budding Tojiah-Hirst?

1200 threads about the ICC? They wish they'd gotten that much attention here.

Seems like his ability to count is similar to his ability to build a fucking bridge already.

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Tojiah
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Dec 7 2011 04:00
Peter wrote:
1200 threads about the ICC? They wish they'd gotten that much attention here.

Seems like his ability to count is similar to his ability to build a fucking bridge already.

There are thereabouts threads - 1071 forum topics, 53 library pieces, 21 news stories, 17 posts in history, 17 polls and 13 blog posts - in which the ICC is mentioned. The search function doesn't distinguish between what is mentioned in the OP and what is mentioned in one of the responses, though. Also, searching for "SWP" or "dogs" gives you the same order of magnitude in threads. Sooooooo.......

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jesuithitsquad
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Dec 7 2011 05:39

.

mciver
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Dec 7 2011 12:32

Devrim Post 165 http://libcom.org/forums/feedback-content/locking-topics-banning-people-26112011?page=5

Quote:
I somewhat doubt it. They seem to have lost the enthusiasm for public denunciations in their press these days. That doesn't mean that they won't do it internally. A good example could be the 'contraversies'. In public we haven't been treated to a denunciation, but within the ICC, they still refer to them as a "parasitic group", In fact they are considered to be 'more dangerous than the old parasites as they don't act like parasites'.

From the above it would seem that Devrim has moved to 'Controversies' (as his 'we' and 'them' suggests). This is a 'forum for the internationalist communist left' -- http://leftcommunism.org/?lang=en Devrim's is probably correct in his prediction, that he and 'Controversies' -- if this is his new group -- will be eventually denounced in public as "... more dangerous parasites, as they don't act like parasites." After all, the Theses on Parasitism remain as they were uploaded in 1998 on the ICC site, without any critical preface.

This said, the purulent Lenin myth survives in this ex-ICC outfit. Thus it doesn't seem to carry antibodies against evolving into another (microscopic) left communist racket.

S. Artesian
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Dec 7 2011 15:52

Why doesn't everybody just cool their jets until Devrim actually provides the information. If you want to speculate, try purchasing the sovereign debt of Italy.

Android
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Dec 7 2011 16:45

I agree with S. Artesian's advice.

mciver wrote:
From the above it would seem that Devrim has moved to 'Controversies' (as his 'we' and 'them' suggests). This is a 'forum for the internationalist communist left' -- http://leftcommunism.org/?lang=en Devrim's is probably correct in his prediction, that he and 'Controversies' -- if this is his new group -- will be eventually denounced in public as "... more dangerous parasites, as they don't act like parasites." After all, the Theses on Parasitism remain as they were uploaded in 1998 on the ICC site, without any critical preface.

I think you are reading way too much into Devrim's use of 'we' and 'them'. By 'we' I understood him to mean those who read the ICC's website and publications and by 'them' the ICC since he has left and is no longer a member.

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Devrim
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Dec 7 2011 21:17
mciver wrote:
Devrim Post 165 http://libcom.org/forums/feedback-content/locking-topics-banning-people-26112011?page=5
Quote:
I somewhat doubt it. They seem to have lost the enthusiasm for public denunciations in their press these days. That doesn't mean that they won't do it internally. A good example could be the 'contraversies'. In public we haven't been treated to a denunciation, but within the ICC, they still refer to them as a "parasitic group", In fact they are considered to be 'more dangerous than the old parasites as they don't act like parasites'.

From the above it would seem that Devrim has moved to 'Controversies' (as his 'we' and 'them' suggests). This is a 'forum for the internationalist communist left' -- http://leftcommunism.org/?lang=en Devrim's is probably correct in his prediction, that he and 'Controversies' -- if this is his new group -- will be eventually denounced in public as "... more dangerous parasites, as they don't act like parasites." After all, the Theses on Parasitism remain as they were uploaded in 1998 on the ICC site, without any critical preface.

Er...no, I have never even met them.

Android wrote:
I think you are reading way too much into Devrim's use of 'we' and 'them'. By 'we' I understood him to mean those who read the ICC's website and publications and by 'them' the ICC since he has left and is no longer a member.

You are right on the 'we' the 'them' actually meant 'Contraversies'. Maybe I expressed it badly. I thought it was clear though.

Devrim

Boris Badenov
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Dec 7 2011 22:08
S. Artesian wrote:
If you want to speculate, try purchasing the sovereign debt of Italy.

ZING!

If Devrim has any typewriters he wants to put away for safety, he should probably do so soonish. black bloc

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Arbeiten
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Dec 8 2011 01:04
Boris Badenov wrote:
S. Artesian wrote:
If you want to speculate, try purchasing the sovereign debt of Italy.

ZING!

If Devrim has any typewriters he wants to put away for safety, he should probably do so soonish. black bloc

LOL laugh out loud

syndicalist
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Dec 8 2011 01:33

who really cares? i mean, he'll talk when he wants to. jeezuz. maybe all he did was forget some obscure line from some marxist tome. or bordiga forgot to wipe the dog-crap off his shoe when he entered a comrades house or something like that.

nastyned
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Dec 8 2011 20:24

That Devrim has become a parasitic element is a matter of vital importance for the proletarian political milieu, and I'm sure the world proletariat in general. Probably.

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Noa Rodman
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Dec 8 2011 20:50
mciver wrote:
Devrim's is probably correct in his prediction, that he and 'Controversies' -- if this is his new group -- will be eventually denounced in public as "... more dangerous parasites, as they don't act like parasites."

What he said was:

Devrim wrote:
I somewhat doubt it. They seem to have lost the enthusiasm for public denunciations in their press these days. That doesn't mean that they won't do it internally.