I have left the ICC (Devrim)

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mciver
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Dec 9 2011 12:25

Rodman Post 31

Quote:
mciver wrote:
Devrim's is probably correct in his prediction, that he and 'Controversies' -- if this is his new group -- will be eventually denounced in public as "... more dangerous parasites, as they don't act like parasites."
What he said was:

Devrim wrote:
I somewhat doubt it. They seem to have lost the enthusiasm for public denunciations in their press these days. That doesn't mean that they won't do it internally.

Last year Rodman agreed with the ICC's notion of 'parasites and adventurers' -- http://libcom.org/forums/theory/racketeerism-parasitism-27072010?page=5 (McIver Post 177)

Agree with syndicalist and others, Devrim will talk when he wants to. Hopefully his typewriter (and internal bulletins) are safely stashed away, as Badenov warns.

Although Devrim is correct when he says that the apparat seems to have lost the enthusiasm for public denunciations, this ignores that The Theses on Parasitism remain uploaded on the ICC site, reminding the world what the ICC really stands for, and that's as current and public as you'll get:

Quote:
... The struggle against parasitism constitutes one of the essential responsibilities of the communist left.... Today it is one of the basic components in the preparation of the party of tomorrow, ... According to the proverb, the most beautiful flowers grow from manure. Science teaches that many parasitic organisms like it just as well. And in its own domain, political parasitism follows the laws of biology, making its honey from society’s putrefaction.

http://en.internationalism.org/ir/94_parasitism

The need for future fumigation and extermination remains as strong as ever. Maybe Tovarisch Rodman will be right in there, providing a helping hand in the end days.

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Noa Rodman
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Dec 9 2011 14:13
Quote:
Last year Rodman agreed with the ICC's notion of 'parasites and adventurers'

I'm not sure that I did. I remember being the only one to bother formulating an argument against it (and the notion of rackerteerism), for which I was called dismissive (while I, again probably alone, gave a detailed overview of Palinorc's article on rackets). "You" on the other hand (I don't want to personalize like that, but getting rid of chestnuts and such smile ) have called me a parasite and, also the presence of the ICC here (with my anti-racket glasses on I could read that as a call to ban them, or virtual murder, as you would phrase it), so you seem to have no problem using the notion of parasitism yourself. The only problem seems to be when the ICC uses it.

action_now
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Dec 11 2011 13:35

wow. says it all really.

bzfgt
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Dec 11 2011 16:53

What says what all?

S. Artesian
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Dec 12 2011 14:53
Quote:

... The struggle against parasitism constitutes one of the essential responsibilities of the communist left.... Today it is one of the basic components in the preparation of the party of tomorrow, ... According to the proverb, the most beautiful flowers grow from manure. Science teaches that many parasitic organisms like it just as well. And in its own domain, political parasitism follows the laws of biology, making its honey from society’s putrefaction.

That's on their website? What stupidity. Proverbs? Marxists referring to proverbs? And "Science teaches.."? What a pile of......

Anyway, one more reason not to read anything by the ICC. They should be ashamed of themselves. They sound like strutting little left-Stalins.

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Alf
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Dec 12 2011 15:48

Deleted post

vanilla.ice.baby
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Dec 13 2011 21:48

The announcement that shook the world.

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Leutha
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Dec 17 2011 11:05

It has even been suggested that Devrim's departure from the ICC has led to their deletion from Wikipedia!

I am in the process of canibalising a superstitious "advent calendar" so that it now will provide suitable quotes - on a day by day basis - from the parasitism text mentioned above. This will help me psychologically prepare for Devrim's revelations.

My first is:

Quote:
According to the proverb, the most beautiful flowers grow from manure. Science teaches that many parasitic organisms like it just as well.

I would be grateful for any suggestions from this forum of quotes I could add to make the experience truly engaging

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Red Marriott
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Dec 17 2011 20:03
Leutha wrote:
I am in the process of canibalising a superstitious "advent calendar" so that it now will provide suitable quotes - on a day by day basis - from the parasitism text mentioned above.

Please post a copy in the library (pref. 'cut out & keep').

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Devrim
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Dec 18 2011 14:37
syndicalist wrote:
who really cares? i mean, he'll talk when he wants to.

As I said originially, I would talk in the New Year, which I think implies January.

syndicalist wrote:
jeezuz. maybe all he did was forget some obscure line from some marxist tome. or bordiga forgot to wipe the dog-crap off his shoe when he entered a comrades house or something like that.

This sort of thing would hardly happen in Turkey would it.

Leutha wrote:
I am in the process of canibalising a superstitious "advent calendar" so that it now will provide suitable quotes - on a day by day basis - from the parasitism text mentioned above. This will help me psychologically prepare for Devrim's revelations.

I'd forgotten how funny you are.

Devrim

Ocuspocus
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Dec 27 2011 01:01

Hi McIver,

All your posts help me a lot in my thoughts : on the Russian revolution, the role of the Bolsheviks, the organisational practices, etc. Then, if it is possible, I would like to receive your political contributions. Thank you in advance. You can send your political material to me at this address e-mail : ethicsandproletarianmorality@gmail.com

Ocuspocus

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Dec 27 2011 17:43

Hi Devrim,

For your own political balancesheet in January, here what I found on Internet. It is a 40 years political balancesheet of the communist left :

Marx teaches us that one cannot judge men on the basis of what they say about themselves, but on the basis of what they do : “Just as one does not judge an individual by what he thinks about himself, so one cannot judge such a period of transformation by its consciousness, but, on the contrary, this consciousness must be explained from the contradictions of material life, from the conflict existing between the social forces of production and the relations of production” [25]. Therefore an examination of the material facts and organizational acts in the press of these groups (ICC, PCI and ICT) is much more telling than all the discourses they evoke about themselves :

1) The Italian Fraction analyzed very correctly that “the history of Lenin is the history of the fractions”. One could paraphrase this formula of Bilan by saying that “the history of the present groups of the Communist Left is the history of the absence of fractions”. Even if the three largest organizations who constitute it (the ICC, the PCI and the ICT) all lay loudly claim to the heritage of Lenin, notably at the organizational level, none of these groups has officially recognized and lived in good intelligence with a tendency or a fraction in the course of the past forty years. Worse, virtually all important divergences who saw the daylight have systematically exploded into ever more serious and exacerbated crises ... whereas in the course of half of such a period of existence (1903 -1921) the Bolsheviks have been traversed by a multitude of tendencies and fractions, who have positively animated their political life because they freely disposed of the material means to defend their positions within the party and publicly, including its own organizational structures.

2) Likewise, in forty years of existence none of the three actual groups has published the smallest pamphlet or the smallest work developing a position that differs from the one officially defended, whereas in the course of half of this period the Bolsheviks have made appear a multitude [26].

3) In reality there have been much more expression of internal debates and divergences with the ’direct ancestors’ that the ICP, the ICT or the ICC lay claim to [27] than in the midst of these three latter organizations ... and this despite the fact that these ’ancestors’ existence was four to five times shorter ! Moreover, the debates within these past groups did not have the systematically dramatic turns and twists they have had during the last three decades. This can also be verified by everyone because their publications are becoming integrally available on the Web.

4) The appearance of internal debates and divergences of the three principal organizations of the present Communist Left is either nonexistent or almost negligible. The sole rare examples date from the first years of their existence or just from the moment of the rupture with their dissidents. In the course of its forty years of existence the ICP (1943 – 1983) has only published echoes of its internal discussions after the split of militants with divergences. It is exactly the same with the ICC : For almost thirty years all diverging texts were published at the moment of the departure of its dissidents, or just afterward. This totally breaks with the tradition of the workers’ movement who has published tens of debates, still more diverging positions, whereas these latter organizations have existed for a very much shorter span of time !

5) Traditionally the emergence of divergences have always been considered as part and parcel of a normal process in the course of a debate. The Bolsheviks were able to demonstrate this in practice. This is what the principal groups of the Communist Left have not known to demonstrate since 1968 : whereas only multiple tendencies could have emerged naturally in the course of these past forty years, not one of them has been officially recognized in any group of this current ... whereas in half of such a period the Bolshevik party recognized tens of them !

6) In 18 years of existence the Bolsheviks have been able to represent a really attractive pole by aggregating the best of the new forces and generations of revolutionaries (varying from the group of Trotsky to elements coming from anarchism for example), whereas the three principal groups within the Communist Left are less numerous today than at their ’glorious hour’ (at the end of the seventies and the beginning of the eighties) and are smaller than at the moment of their constitution.

7) During the first years of the Russian revolution, the Pravda always had a column on its front page devoted to the expression of diverging opinions. When have we seen such a practice with the principal groups of the Communist Left ? Even at crucial moments, like the insurrection in 1917 or the Brest-Litosvk treaties (1918), and even faced with serious accusations like betraying the interests of the revolution (the Workers’ Opposition) the Bolsheviks have published and debated on these critiques : they have always given all the material means to their militants in divergence to be able to freely express their opinions, including a press and an organizational structure of their own. In other words, the Bolsheviks have conducted the only possible politics : a really free and controversial discussion in order to resolve the debates politically by gaining height, by deepening their political understanding.

The contrast between the subjective claiming of Bolshevism by these three organizations and their objective practice is total. Therefore their claim to Lenin at this level is abusive.

This balance sheet is without appeal because it is founded on material and objective elements that anyone can easily verify. There is no need to know the details and secrets of their disappointments and their multiple splits. Simply taking notice of their respective press publications amply suffices. With evidence all these facts show that the organizational visions and practices of the three largest groups of the Communist Left are marked by the heritage of the counter-revolution. They formally contradict all the virulent denials of some [28].

With this kind of political visions and organizational practices it is not surprising that the disagreements that have emerged within these three organizations have almost systematically ended with departures, organizational crises and conflicts, and ostracism of the dissidents who have tried in vain to put their finger on these contradictions and understand them. Unfortunately this is the image the Communist Left displays since more than three decades [29].

-----

[25] Karl Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy, Preface (1859).

[26] The only exception that approaches this somewhat is the old ICC pamphlet on The period of transition (1981). It is very significant that (a) all the texts date from the 1970s as this organization was in a phase of constitution and regrouping ; (b) a follow up has never been published ; (c) the ICC has never indicated to have continued this debate ; (d) that this pamphlet is not devoted to the defense of a diverging position, but is a simple collection of diverse positions ... In other words, this seeming exception (which was very laudable and incisive at the time) fully confirms the desert like state of real controversies within and between the groups of the Communist Left.

[27] Il Comunista, Bilan, Internationalisme, Communisme or L’ouvrier communiste.

[28] In order to have a small overview of the edifying character of these denials, the reader could usefully read the first part of the ICC’s pamphlet with the significant title : The so-called paranoia of the ICC (La prétendue paranoïa du CCI, I, 1995).

[29] The political and organizational crisis of the Communist Left affects the whole of its components, even if it does not manifest itself in the same way and with the same intensity with all its parts.

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playinghob
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Dec 27 2011 21:04

Have you read Understanding the Times: The Collision of Today's Competing World Views by David Noebel?

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shug
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Dec 27 2011 22:06

Er, nope. Wiki he say: "David A. Noebel is an American religious leader and writer. He is the former director of Summit Ministries, in Manitou Springs, Colorado in the United States. Since the 1960s, he has written widely on the relationship between religion and popular culture, and is an outspoken critic of secular humanism, which he describes as unscientific and a religion."

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playinghob
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Dec 27 2011 22:35

I don't know who Ocuspocus is Shrug but his/her email address led me to ethics and proletarian morality and Worldview and Summit ministries. Who write on proletarian morality: "The Killing fields of Cambodia, the Soviet Union and the Ukraine, as well as mass murders in China were the practical results of proletariat or class morality". Noebel, also wrote along with Fred Scharz, a updated version of Scharz's You Can Still Trust a Communist.... To be a Communist, published by the Christian Anti- Communist Crusade. He is a staunch anti-communist, including their "fellow travellers" or "useful idiots". What's all this got to do with Ocuspocus's post???. Dunno really, just smelt an anti-communist/religious right rat here (Or maybe a disgruntled left-communist with an axe grinding identity crisis). Maybe I've just had too much port and mince pies!

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Railyon
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Dec 27 2011 22:51

Sorry if this is an ignorant question (which I realize it is), but why is this (devrim leaving the ICC) such a big deal again?

Ocuspocus
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Dec 28 2011 01:05

What a charming reception on this list of discussion ! The address e-mail is a private joke concerning the ICC (his 'framework text' on ethics and proletarian morality : http://en.internationalism.org/ir/127/marxism-and-ethics).

As I am obviously not welcome, I do not want to disturb you. I wanted simply to make contact with Juan McIver and to announce a text which could interest Devrim. That's all !

bzfgt
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Dec 28 2011 04:19
Railyon wrote:
Sorry if this is an ignorant question (which I realize it is), but why is this (devrim leaving the ICC) such a big deal again?

Four more days...

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Juan Conatz
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Dec 28 2011 05:05
Railyon wrote:
Sorry if this is an ignorant question (which I realize it is), but why is this (devrim leaving the ICC) such a big deal again?

Because the ICC has long been a controversial topic on libcom and Devrim is a respected poster with experience in working class struggles and groups in the UK prior to many of the posters here.

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Railyon
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Dec 28 2011 10:38
Juan Conatz wrote:
Because the ICC has long been a controversial topic on libcom and Devrim is a respected poster with experience in working class struggles and groups in the UK prior to many of the posters here.

I still don't quite get the importance of this (on a structural level, like, how this split is going to affect anyone besides those involved, leave alone the anti-authoritarian left in general, rather than some weird celebrity gonzo stuff), or to put it bluntly, why some people go apeshit over it.

It's not like it's the reason 2012 is gonna be the last year on earth or something - or is Dev the only good man the ICC had? Then yeah, shit out of luck I guess.

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Dec 28 2011 14:09

I still don't quite get the importance of this (on a structural level, like, how this split is going to affect anyone besides those involved, leave alone the anti-authoritarian left in general, rather than some weird celebrity gonzo stuff), or to put it bluntly, why some people go apeshit over it.

Please see the posting about the notability of the ICC on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Communist_Current

Quote:
It's not like it's the reason 2012 is gonna be the last year on earth or something - or is Dev the only good man the ICC had? Then yeah, shit out of luck I guess.

Having studied the ancient Mayan text, I have found now mention of the ICC, but perhaps that's because they didn't use a latin alphabet. As for the second alternative you might find some of the people who contribute to these pages want to take you to task for this simple question.

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GBF23
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Dec 28 2011 15:08
Railyon wrote:
Sorry if this is an ignorant question (which I realize it is), but why is this (devrim leaving the ICC) such a big deal again?

Personally, I f%$%&*-65 hate cricket.

wojtek
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Dec 28 2011 15:22

The moment Bob Fossil, sorry err Devrim left the ICC wink

jolasmo
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Dec 28 2011 18:07
Quote:
I still don't quite get the importance of this (on a structural level, like, how this split is going to affect anyone besides those involved, leave alone the anti-authoritarian left in general, rather than some weird celebrity gonzo stuff), or to put it bluntly, why some people go apeshit over it.

I don't think anyone is going "apeshit", people (me included) are just curious. It's just a bit of gossip and rubbernecking, if you're not interested then just ignore it.

~J.

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Khawaga
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Dec 28 2011 18:58

The people going apeshit over this are those people that have personal beef with ICC. Like McIver (justifiably it seems), but will troll any thread in which the ICC is mentioned.

jolasmo
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Dec 29 2011 12:23

Jesus, I forgot about McIver - I guess at this point my brain just treats his posts as so much white noise.

~J.

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Devrim
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Dec 30 2011 06:34
Ocuspocus wrote:
Hi Devrim,

For your own political balancesheet in January, here what I found on Internet. It is a 40 years political balancesheet of the communist left :

I'd read this already, but thanks all the same.

Devrim

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Devrim
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Dec 30 2011 06:36
bzfgt wrote:
Railyon wrote:
Sorry if this is an ignorant question (which I realize it is), but why is this (devrim leaving the ICC) such a big deal again?

Four more days...

Actually, I said I would wait about six months. Look at the date on the first post on the thread. I certainly won't be published on Jan 1st when I imagine I might just have some drinking to do instead.

Devrim

bzfgt
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Dec 30 2011 07:26

I assumed you meant lunar months.

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Devrim
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Jan 3 2012 05:59

For those too impatient to wait, some of the issues come out in this discussion on RevLeft from page 3 onwards.

Devrim