ICC meeting, 4 Feb, Bank of Ideas, London: Democratise capitalism or destroy it?

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Alf
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Jan 23 2012 15:21
ICC meeting, 4 Feb, Bank of Ideas, London: Democratise capitalism or destroy it?

Democratise capitalism
- or destroy it?

On the side of the Tent City University at St Paul’s occupation is the slogan “Democratise capitalism”. This meeting, organised by the International Communist Current, argues that capitalism cannot be democratised, reformed or regulated in the interests of the vast majority, but needs to be destroyed by a social revolution carried out by the vast majority

Date/Time
Saturday 4th February 2012
4:00 PM - 6:00 PM

Location
Bank of Ideas, Sun Street, London EC2. Nearest tube: Liverpool Street

capricorn
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Jan 24 2012 10:22
Alf wrote:
capitalism cannot be democratised, reformed or regulated in the interests of the vast majority, but needs to be destroyed by a social revolution carried out by the vast majority

Agreed, but has the ICC now revised its position on who are the working class and come to "to dilute it in the fog of humanism"?

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Jan 24 2012 10:50

Can you expand on this question, with references to anything we have written? When have we ever said that the revolution will not be the work of the immense majority of humanity?

Apparently the slogan 'democratise capitalism' has been taken down after a number of protests, which indicates that there is still some fruitful debate going on in the Occupations movement.

Battlescarred
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Jan 24 2012 11:01

I'm glad that banner went down, it made me see red when I saw it last week

alb
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Jan 24 2012 11:19

Here it is:

A better, day-time photo can be found here.

It's also in the latest issue of The Occupy Times which you can pick up at the Bank of Ideas.

Terrible, I agree. Absolutely terrible.

Melmoth
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Jan 25 2012 09:50

See Also Birmingham Public Meeting

SAT 28th January 2012 14.00-17.00

Title "Capitalism is bankrupt, we need to overthrow it"

Venue Friends of the Earth Warehouse; 54 Allison St. Birmingham B5 5TH.

All welcome

alb
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Jan 26 2012 09:56

Looks as if this has been overtaken by events.

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Jan 26 2012 15:43

Clearly the prospect of our forum made the state shake in its shoes.

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the button
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Jan 26 2012 16:25

You could always hold your meeting just outside the former Bank of Ideas if you can't get in. Not sure if the ICC have tried that kind of approach before.

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flaneur
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Jan 26 2012 16:50

MEOW!

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the button
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Jan 26 2012 16:56
flaneur wrote:
MEOW!

Alf knows I love him really.

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Alf
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Jan 26 2012 17:27

there's indeed a special kind of understanding between old gits who have been around for years

capricorn
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Jan 27 2012 07:45

That's a pity. We're now going to have to wait to see if there is any difference between "the proletariat" and "the vast majority" and why, if the revolution is to be carried out by the vast majority, they can't also use the ballot box as well as organizing in workers councils or whatever. Surely, as the vast majority wanting revolution, they would no longer be fooled into voting for pro-capitalist candidates and would easily win any election hands down?

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Jan 27 2012 08:04

Socialists are enforcing austerity in Europe. Despite best intentions (and let's be honest, a lot of self-described "socialist" politicians are nothing but careerists), all politicians are beholden to the market and the logic of capitalism (state or private) which is intrinsic to the modern nation-state.

In short, the state is an inherently hierarchical and bourgeois institution and can never be a means to further a working-class revolution.

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Jan 27 2012 09:58

The proletariat is strictly speaking probably not the majority of the world's population, and the revolution will begin somewhere, which means that even if 100% of the proletariat in that country was behind it, it would still be a minority of the world proletariat acting for their own class interests. But this is true of every strike, every workers' action. The question here is not some abstract majority declared through a non-existent world parliament, but a process which brings in more and more proletarians, and more and more integrates the non-proletarian but non-exploiting layers of the global population. As Rosa Luxemburg put it, a propos of the Russian revolution:

"Thereby the Bolsheviks solved the famous problem of “winning a majority of the people,” which problem has ever weighed on the German Social-Democracy like a nightmare. As bred-in-the-bone disciples of parliamentary cretinism, these German Social-Democrats have sought to apply to revolutions the home-made wisdom of the parliamentary nursery: in order to carry anything, you must first have a majority. The same, they say, applies to a revolution: first let’s become a “majority.” The true dialectic of revolutions, however, stands this wisdom of parliamentary moles on its head: not through a majority, but through revolutionary tactics to a majority – that’s the way the road runs.” – Rosa Luxemburg, The Russian Revolution, 1918

Agree with Chilli: the institutions of the existing state are custom made for blocking, containing, and ultimately repressing such a revolutionary dynamic, in contrast to the form discovered in all proletarian revolutions - assemblies and councils.

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the button
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Jan 27 2012 14:29

Looks like they've moved without telling you.

https://twitter.com/#!/OccupyLSX/status/162904086172274688/photo/1

sad

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Alf
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Jan 27 2012 14:48

Thanks for letting me know!

capricorn
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Jan 28 2012 06:29

Just as I thought. You don't really believe in a revolution of the vast majority but in a revolution started by a minority which is supposed to eventually drag the vast majority behind it. A very risky strategy as Rosa Luxemburg found to her cost (even if she did opposed the Spartacist uprising as premature) and as the Bolsheviks did when they found themselves in power as a minority and had no alternative but to develop state capitalism. But this is not the place to have that argument once again or to discuss what a revolution might look like today as opposed to a hundred years ago.
PS Luxemburg was not opposed to participation in elections.

bastarx
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Jan 28 2012 06:34

I'd much prefer a very risky strategy (what strategy for revolution isn't?) to the complete non-starter of parliamentary cretinism.

capricorn
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Jan 28 2012 07:03

I'm not advocating parliamentary cretinism either but just saying that before trying to start a revolution it would be sensible to have the majority on your side (and that going into parliament as rebels could be part of the strategy). Minority revolutions don't work and, even when successful, only lead to minority rule. I would have thought that that's the clear lesson of the revolutions of the 20th century.

bastarx
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Jan 28 2012 11:06

The revolutionary majority will only reveal itself in the course of the revolution not in pre-revolutionary elections.

Not sure there's much point arguing this though, I'm sure the SPGB has had countless similar arguments in it's 100+ years of learning and doing nothing.

capricorn
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Jan 28 2012 11:14
Peter wrote:
The revolutionary majority will only reveal itself in the course of the revolution

You hope.