Kinky London Anarchist Munch

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Soapy
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Jan 2 2015 12:14
Webby wrote:
plasmatelly wrote:
Blimey Charlie.. What's happened here?

I think maybe emm caught a dose of 'gone'-arear, probably from somebody dressed as a 'none'. Still, whatever floats your boat, eh?

Tsanuri
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Jan 2 2015 20:24

I know it is rare for me to comment on anything on LibCom, but it is a friend that runs this munch (a social gathering of kink/fetish-friendly people), and I suggested they post a notice of it here.

While I've not been along to this event in the past I understand general idea is it is a place for folks in the BDSM/Kink/fetish scene who are also anarchists to meet up, socialise, and perhaps talk about how their politics and ideas relating to the fetish scene overlap (along with anything else that kekes folks fancy). The fet scene can be full of really right-wing types and so having a space to meet other anarchists, libertarians, socialists and fellow travellers is really refreshing. Even if the fet scene isnt for you, the social aspect alone is a lot of fun.

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plasmatelly
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Jan 2 2015 20:34

I googled age play - it looks like - my naive understanding from wiki - it is about getting kicks from power and bending the rules of consent. Is that a fair assessment?

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Jan 2 2015 23:36

Gone?

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Jan 3 2015 14:35

Dunno why this has gotten under me skin, I suspect it's the contradictions in what I've read about age play and rape play that what I understand anarchism to mean. I appreciate that many people get their kicks in many different, sometimes bizarre ways; having said this, I find it stomach churning to think that a man gets his kicks from acting out rape.
This from wiki:

Quote:
"A rape fantasy or a ravishment is a sexual fantasy involving imagining or pretending being coerced or coercing another into sexual activity."

I think these events have the potential to be the biggest own goal should the media wish to focus on this as something that anarchists are supposedly about. What seems to be clear is that if attendees identify with anarchism, then there is something very unsettling in any attempt to legitimise these contradictions. This has fuck all to do with anarchism.

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Jan 3 2015 15:52
plasmatelly wrote:
Dunno why this has gotten under me skin, I suspect it's the contradictions in what I've read about age play and rape play that what I understand anarchism to mean. I appreciate that many people get their kicks in many different, sometimes bizarre ways; having said this, I find it stomach churning to think that a man gets his kicks from acting out rape.
This from wiki:

Quote:
"A rape fantasy or a ravishment is a sexual fantasy involving imagining or pretending being coerced or coercing another into sexual activity."

I think these events have the potential to be the biggest own goal should the media wish to focus on this as something that anarchists are supposedly about. What seems to be clear is that if attendees identify with anarchism, then there is something very unsettling in any attempt to legitimise these contradictions. This has fuck all to do with anarchism.

I have to say that this thread has had a similar affect on me but I kept quiet due to the fact that I am pretty ignorant on this stuff. Also, being singularly unadventurous in the sex department I have no understanding of why people don't want to just get to it rather than make a production number of the whole thing. So, not my thing and none of my business but I can't help but feel judgemental about displays of power and coercion - being an anarchist these are the very things that I deplore. I dare say I'm missing the point but nonetheless those are my thoughts on the matter.

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Jan 3 2015 16:19

For the record, I have never had any interest at all in age play, BDSM, or general kinkiness beyond leaving the lights on. But frankly I find the Victorianism displayed by some of the posters here quite stunning.

plasmatelly wrote:
I find it stomach churning to think that a man gets his kicks from acting out rape.

Perhaps the partner involved also gets their kicks from the idea of being a victim of sexual assualt. Have you thought of that?

plasmatelly wrote:
I think these events have the potential to be the biggest own goal should the media wish to focus on this as something that anarchists are supposedly about.

This is ridiculous. But even if you were right, what are you implying? That events like this should not be publicized and kept under the rug? (What if the normals find out!) Should they not be called "anarchist"? (Even though they specifically involve anarchists or sympathizers?)

plasmatelly wrote:
What seems to be clear is that if attendees identify with anarchism, then there is something very unsettling in any attempt to legitimise these contradictions. This has fuck all to do with anarchism.

It's described as an event for anarchists with a shared interest. I don't think the people involved attribute any political significance to it beyond that. Similarly, there are "anarchist" sports clubs and hiking clubs.

Webby wrote:
Also, being singularly unadventurous in the sex department I have no understanding of why people don't want to just get to it rather than make a production number of the whole thing.

Are you implying that imagination should play no role in sexuality? If not (as I hope you aren't), where exactly is the border beyond which the content of such imagination becomes verboten? Don't you find this a bit silly?

Burgers
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Jan 3 2015 16:56

What Jura just said

boomerang
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Jan 3 2015 17:31
plasmatelly wrote:
Dunno why this has gotten under me skin, I suspect it's the contradictions in what I've read about age play and rape play that what I understand anarchism to mean. I appreciate that many people get their kicks in many different, sometimes bizarre ways; having said this, I find it stomach churning to think that a man gets his kicks from acting out rape.
This from wiki:

Quote:
"A rape fantasy or a ravishment is a sexual fantasy involving imagining or pretending being coerced or coercing another into sexual activity."

I think these events have the potential to be the biggest own goal should the media wish to focus on this as something that anarchists are supposedly about. What seems to be clear is that if attendees identify with anarchism, then there is something very unsettling in any attempt to legitimise these contradictions. This has fuck all to do with anarchism.

I agree.

I spent a few years in my 20s arguing about this stuff, and have no desire to ever argue about it again. But I just wanted to publicly come out to say I agree with you, because from experience I know that those who defend bdsm sometimes try to make you feel like an awful person for having your view (been yelled at that I was as bad as a homophobe several times, and also been told I'm an anti-sex prude... both hilarious ironies considering the fact that I'm bisexual, polyamorous, and -- at least at the time when I used to have these debates -- rarely kept my pants on during first dates, and open to out of the ordinary sex play so long as it's not about acting out the degradation, abuse, or suffering of myself or anyone else... Hmmm, TMI for libcom?).

That being said, I've known many people who are turned on by the fantasy of violence, abuse, and domination, and most have been wonderful and lovely and dedicated to eradicating in reality the things that turn them on in fantasy.

We live in a deeply corrupt and fucked up society and even if we're generally good people, none of us can help but have our minds poisoned by the horror of the world we live in, and it seeps into our unconscious. For some of us that means it will manifest itself in the sexual fantasies of the abuse of others or of our own abuse -- whether that be a fetish for (pretend) nazi/holocaust stuff, (pretend) rape, or (pretend) child-molesting (the three things mentioned on this thread), or something else along those lines.

A fraction of those people will become actual real life predators. But the majority of people with such fantasies only want to go so far as acting these out as fantasies and roleplays with consenting adults who get pleasure from the same thing. On one level, this is fine because nobody gets hurt. On another level, I find it to be a tragic reflection of what this world does to people. (Also, engaging in these fantasies will likely strengthen and reinforce the negative things in our unconscious that caused them in the first place.)

I expect that down the road when we finally sort our shit out on this planet and create a world that is no longer based on violence, domination, hierarchy, suffering, and so on, we will no longer have violence, domination, hierarchy, or suffering in our sexual fantasies. This doesn't mean there won't still be kinky people, but there are many ways to be sexually creative and bizarre without making a fetish of the horrors of this world.

An Affirming Flame
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Jan 3 2015 17:37

Excellent post, boomerang. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

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Jan 3 2015 17:43
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leaving the lights on.

You mean people actually do that??? Fucking hell, I've heard it all now!

Fleur
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Jan 3 2015 17:51

jura wrote

Quote:
For the record, I have never had any interest at all in age play, BDSM, or general kinkiness beyond leaving the lights on. But frankly I find the Victorianism displayed by some of the posters here quite stunning.

Yes, agreed, 100%

Anarchists kink-shaming other anarchists,ffs. Since when has it been OK to be judgemental about the private, consensual sexual activities of adults, which does not impinge on the lives of others not involved at all? Nobody is making anyone do anything they don't want to do - that's pretty much what consent is all about.

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Jan 3 2015 17:55

If it's between consenting adults why the fuck should anyone else care?

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Jan 3 2015 19:17

I think some people have the idea that

(a) sexual practices in which "power" (in a wide sense) is involved somehow reflect the structure of (class, gendered, racial) domination in society.

Boomerang expressed this view quite explicitly, if I understand them correctly.

The reasoning then is that

(b) anyone who doesn't like domination in society shouldn't commend the sexual practices that reflect it, and

(c) when these forms of social domination disappear, the corresponding sexual practices will disappear as well, and will no longer be "tainted" by the domination in society.

I don't see why (b) should hold. The fact that I don't like and criticize violence in society doesn't imply I should dislike violent cinema, literature or video games, not least because often violence in art or other means of expression is used to criticize or even subvert violence in society. I think it can be the same with sexuality, but even if it isn't, I don't see anything wrong about two consenting adults fantasizing about or enacting domination, violence, non-consensual sex or morally unacceptable sex.

I think (c) presupposes the essentialist view that there is some "pure" sexuality (untainted by class domination) waiting to be "liberated". I think that's a very simplistic view. I don't know what forms sexuality will take if class, gender and race are ever abolished, and I think nobody really knows. I don't see why all sexuality in a society without domination would have to be about "just getting to it" (Webby). I think some people would find that boring and would want to change it around and experiment. Possibly even reenacting scenes from literature and other works of art made in the period of class societies, and hence producing sexual acts "tainted" with domination.

I also think (c) pressuposes quite a crass materialism in that the forms of human sexuality are viewed as mere reflections of social conditions. If it doesn't work like that with politics, art and morality (which I think it doesn't), I don't see why it would work with sexuality.

I do agree, to some extent, with (a), but I don't think one has to accept (b) and (c).

(edited for typos)

Fleur
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Jan 3 2015 18:54

Presumably after the revolution there will be no play of any kind which involves "domination" of any sort?
So we can all wave bye-bye to wrestling, competitive sports and tiddlywinks tournaments.

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Jan 3 2015 19:14
jura wrote:
Boomerang expressed this view quite explicitly, if I understand him correctly.

just a quick note: I'm pretty sure boomerang is not a "he". A general note to all users: please don't make assumptions about other posters' gender

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Jan 3 2015 19:17

Thanks and apologies. Corrected so as to make no assumptions at all.

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Jan 3 2015 20:08

Blimey, I simply expressed a lack of understanding of this stuff and a distaste for what I now think is termed rapeplay. I was hardly spewing out a broad condemnation of anything other than the missionary position.
This is a discussion forum and to suggest that there is no discussion to be had about the pretence of rape and child sex is quite astonishing to me, especially in the light of where the discussion really took off which was the use of fascist imagery, clothing etc which nobody seems to be in support of.And no, I haven't made a decision that any particular thing is wrong, nor have I said so. If I wanted to condemn/kink shame I would be been considerably more strident with what I posted.

boomerang
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Jan 3 2015 20:43
jura wrote:
The fact that I don't like and criticize violence in society doesn't imply I should dislike violent cinema, literature or video games, not least because often violence in art or other means of expression is used to criticize or even subvert violence in society. I think it can be the same with sexuality,

Generally in violent cinema, literature, or video games, you (the audience or player) is meant to empathize or sympathize with the (pretend) suffering or abuse of others, or violence is used to achieve a goal (usually to protect from the violence of some evil villian - a narrative not beyond critique). The enjoyment we feel comes from the emotions of empathizing with characters. It's very different from the type of sexual fantasies and roleplays we've been discussing, where there is a fetishizing or pleasure derived from the (pretend) suffering or abuse in itself. (The opposite of empathy.)

Fleur wrote:
Presumably after the revolution there will be no play of any kind which involves "domination" of any sort?
So we can all wave bye-bye to wrestling, competitive sports and tiddlywinks tournaments.

Here the two sides are both trying to win and they enjoy the skill and challenge of the competition and the game. Quite different from getting kicks from pretending to abuse someone who is powerless or to be abused and powerless.

~
If the fetishizing of rape, child molesting, nazis, and etc. is to do with something inherent to human biology, rather than being corrupted by a sick society, then that's really sad. I hope it's not true. But, I guess I can't prove it either way.

As for shaming, I never said anyone should feel ashamed, as I think these sexual turn-ons are mostly beyond our control.

boomerang
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Jan 3 2015 20:42

double post

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Jan 3 2015 21:03
boomerang wrote:
Generally in violent cinema, literature, or video games, you (the audience or player) is meant to empathize or sympathize with the (pretend) suffering or abuse of others, or violence is used to achieve a goal (usually to protect from the violence of some evil villian - a narrative not beyond critique). The enjoyment we feel comes from the emotions of empathizing with characters. It's very different from the type of sexual fantasies and roleplays we've been discussing, where there is a fetishizing or pleasure derived from the (pretend) suffering or abuse in itself. (The opposite of empathy.)

This is an overgeneralization at best.There are plenty of video games and films where violence serves no purpose at all, other than to entertain (think splatter movies). Then there is a plethora of cases where violence is unequivocally malevolent (think Grand Theft Auto, and there are better, but less well-known examples). The enjoyment in these cases has nothing to do with empathy or sympathy. You may not like it but let's not pretend it does not exist.

You seem to accept the view that there is some "unconscious" in human psyche that not only reflects social conditions, but that by feeding this "unconcsious" with imagined domination, fantasies of violence etc. we desensitize ourselves to real domination and violence. I think this is very problematic. The "unconscious" hypothesis is itself problematic, but let's leave that aside. The very same presupposition is commonly used to argue against violent lyrics in rock music or depictions of violence in video games, including cases that (I hope) you would disagree with (think Tipper Gore). As far as I know there is zero evidence on video games causing violent behavior. I don't see why it should work otherwise with sexual fantasies, unless we are speaking about people with diagnosable mental disorders.

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Jan 3 2015 21:03

So Victorian values are those that question the fetishisation of rape and paedophilia, is that what I'm reading?

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Jan 3 2015 21:03

I think you're not using the word "fetishisation" correctly.

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Jan 3 2015 21:05
jura wrote:
I think you're not using the word "fetishisation" correctly.

Possibly so. As I say, I'm pretty naive to all this; and very much struggling to understand why people are mobbing on this one.

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Jan 3 2015 21:28

It's a quite a leap from "age play" to "paedophilia", and from domination to "rape". Paedophilia is defined as sexual attraction to prepubescent children. I don't know if it's possible for a grown adult person to veridically "role play" a prepubescent child so as to make oneself attractive to a paedophile. On first thought it seems difficult due to the physiological differences. Also, if it were possible, paedophilia would probably be a much less serious psychiatrical and social problem than it really is. But anyway, age play seems to be a much broader concept than "faux-prepubescent child vs. adult" (think "freshman vs. experienced professor"). Similarly, domination seems much broader than rape. And I'd like to stress once more that there seem to be people around who enjoy the fantasy of being assaulted, abused, spat on etc. So it's not just "men" (i.e. the faux-perpetrators) acting out "their" rape fantasies. (Have none of you had your partner ask you not only to leave the lights on, but to say naughty words to them or pull their hair? WTF?)

For these reasons, I don't think the kinky crowd "fetishize" "paedophilia" and "rape". They find enjoyment in harmless fantasies that remain just that – as long as there is consent and everyone involved can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

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Jan 3 2015 21:30

BTW, if any of the down-voters wish to address the Tipper Gore business, that would be great. Or do you also think Marilyn Manson caused Columbine?

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Jan 3 2015 21:46
plasmatelly wrote:
So Victorian values are those that question the fetishisation of rape and paedophilia, is that what I'm reading?

Boom! Plasmatelly plays the rape card and instantly trumps it with the paedo card. Get a fucking grip.

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Jan 3 2015 21:58

What I really don't get here is that instead of tempered and patient responses to perfectly legitimate appeals for clarification we get snarky bombastic overeactions that distort the questions asked and further muddy the waters. The end result? A mild curiosity is transformed to mild suspicion.

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Jan 3 2015 22:01

For clarity here - emm was the poster who mentioned rape play, sadly has now been deleted.

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Jan 3 2015 22:08

Yeah, I don't get why what consenting adults do really matters. I also am uncomfortable with pseudo-psychology disguised as political analysis to explain the sexuality of individuals. Once you go down that road, it leads to political governing of sexuality, which gets you into the territory of bizarre Maoist cults like the RCP who condemned and banned homosexuality in their party as bourgeois or whatever their justification was. And there have been numerous other political outfits that have tried to tie someone's sexuality to whatever conception of revolutionaryism, including Sojourner Truth Organization, the Black Panther Party, various little anarchist collectives. Everything from having kids, to being monogamous, to being polyandrous, etc. I think those efforts to govern member's consensual sexual behavior were unwise and lead nowhere. Its better to just acknowledging consenting adults can do as they please.