Kinky London Anarchist Munch

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boomerang
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Jan 3 2015 22:12
jura wrote:
BTW, if any of the down-voters wish to address the Tipper Gore business, that would be great. Or do you also think Marilyn Manson caused Columbine?

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/blog/why-talking-about-violence-in-por... wrote:
But as Stephen Marche smartly observed in the New York Times, “A new cliché has taken hold, though, one that insists on an absolute separation between violent art and real violence.” Much like the “video games make children kill” hysteria of the 80s and 90s, this sentiment misses the mark by oversimplifying. No media “makes” human beings do things, but neither are we impervious to the effects of normalized actions.

I'm glad you brought this up, because this is where the bdsm thing can't be said to be "none of my business because it's between two consenting adults and has nothing to do with me."

Violent porn of rape and all types of imaginable abuse and torture is all over the internet for anyone to see, including kids just hitting puberty whose minds are more open to influence. This porn is easy to accidentally stumble upon (mixed in websites with nonviolent porn), and it can often seem very real (I've seen it).

There is plenty of research evidence that movies, video games, porn, and other media does influence our opinions and behavior to at least some degree. It's silly to deny that just like it's silly to think it determines our opinions and behavior.

You don't have to want state censorship to be concerned that recent and upcoming generations are wanking off to porn of real-seeming rape and abuse. So I'd at least not like to be sneered at as some naive idiot who thinks "Marilyn Manson caused Columbine."

For example:

A 1981 study by Donnerstein and Berkowitz: The subject watched one of four films: a talk-show interview, nonviolent porn, a porn depicting rape where the woman starts to enjoy the rape, a porn depicting rape where the woman is shown to suffer. Then, the subject’s partner answered some questions and the subject was to shock his partner when he or she got a wrong answer. He was able to select how powerful a shock to give. The men who had been exposed to either of the rape pornos gave stronger shocks than men exposed to nonviolent porn or the talk show – if their partner was female. But the men exposed to violent porn did not give stronger shocks if their partner was male.

Fleur
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Jan 3 2015 22:29

Nobody is promoting rape or paedophilia. What people are talking about is consensual sex games between adults. It's a matter of knowing the difference between reality and fantasy.
Boomerang wrote

Quote:
Fleur wrote:
Presumably after the revolution there will be no play of any kind which involves "domination" of any sort?
So we can all wave bye-bye to wrestling, competitive sports and tiddlywinks tournaments.
Here the two sides are both trying to win and they enjoy the skill and challenge of the competition and the game. Quite different from getting kicks from pretending to abuse someone who is powerless or to be abused and powerless.

Actually no. It's a bit loaded to use the word "abuse" to describe something that someone wants to do and has consented to do it and enjoys. I can't see that it's different from any other kind of sex, in that you negotiate what each other wants and likes, obtain consent, continue to obtain consent and checks in that you're both getting off on it. If it's not your thing, don't do it. If someone does something to you you don't like, then it's not sex, it's sexual assault. Where's the difference?

As for other games, of the non-sexual variety, I've lost count of how many people I killed this week on my xbox, and I'm not feeling a lot of empathy there because it's not reality and when it comes to RPGs, it's actually quite fun to play as the villain sometimes but I don't really have any serious plans to become some kind of evil overlord. Sometime the protagonist in fiction isn't a good guy but it is still enjoyable.

I'm more than a little wary of people pathologizing adult consensual desires. There's been a history of people being sanctioned, committed to asylums, prisons, physically mutilated etc because they did't fit the societal norm of what was considered normal. And there's a whole array of things I find completely bewildering as to why some people find them erotic but if everyone involved is happy about it, then I can't see why it's any of my business.

As for the fraction of people with BDSM fantasies going on to sexually assault someone, that is undoubtably true. I would like to see any compelling evidence, however, that it is of a higher proportion than in the non-kink population.

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Serge Forward
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Jan 3 2015 22:39
Webby wrote:
What I really don't get here is that instead of tempered and patient responses to perfectly legitimate appeals for clarification we get snarky bombastic overeactions that distort the questions asked and further muddy the waters. The end result? A mild curiosity is transformed to mild suspicion.

It's very simple, Webby. What informed and consenting adults do between themselves is their business. You or I may not like it or may find it unpleasant or even repellent, but that is neither here nor there. So if, for example, an adult gets off on dressing up in baby clothes and sucking on a titty bottle while having their nappy changed by another informed and consenting adult, then who really gives a toss? If those people also happen to be anarchists or libertarian communists, then what they do in their bedroom (or in the kind of clubs that cater for that sort of thing) has zero bearing on whatever their revolutionary credentials.

Hope that eases your suspicion wink

Fleur
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Jan 3 2015 22:58

I'm not feeling like getting into a pornography debate but multiple studies, of a much higher sample of participants, since the Donnerstein and Berkowitz study seem to refute their findings.
ie http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/?page=3

As for the videogames/violent movies cause violence in society hypothesis, violent crime has been dropping and is at it's lowest level for decades on both sides of the Atlantic and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone under 50 who hasn't/doesn't play videogames or seen violent movies.

boomerang
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Jan 3 2015 23:05
Fleur wrote:
As for other games, of the non-sexual variety, I've lost count of how many people I killed this week on my xbox, and I'm not feeling a lot of empathy there because it's not reality and when it comes to RPGs, it's actually quite fun to play as the villain sometimes but I don't really have any serious plans to become some kind of evil overlord. Sometime the protagonist in fiction isn't a good guy but it is still enjoyable.

I see your point on that, but where's the line? I mean how do you feel about the hentai-porn video-game "RapeLay"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay

Quote:
The game centers on a male character who stalks and rapes a mother and her two daughters.

Should I not be concerned that this game holds an attraction to some people, or the influence it might have on them? (This is the same way I feel about rape porn and other violent porn)

I also don't want to get into a statistics/research battle, and I know the "it's harmless" side does have its research too, but there's also enough evidence on the other side that there is reasonable grounds for concern.

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jura
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Jan 3 2015 23:07

What Fleur and Serge said.

Plus,

boomerang wrote:
But as Stephen Marche smartly observed in the New York Times, “A new cliché has taken hold, though, one that insists on an absolute separation between violent art and real violence.” Much like the “video games make children kill” hysteria of the 80s and 90s, this sentiment misses the mark by oversimplifying. No media “makes” human beings do things, but neither are we impervious to the effects of normalized actions.

First of all, why would the opinion of someone with an English drama degree count more than anyone else's in this context? Second, I'm not denying there is "some" relation, negative or positive, between media content and consciousness. Denying that would be ludicrous. What I was objecting to was your idea that if I critize something that happens in reality, I should not enjoy consuming fictitious media that deal with the same subject in a non-critical way, or fantasize (being a consenting adult etc. etc.) about the subject because it will "reinforce" the "negative" thing in my "subconcsious", presumably leading to all kinds of disasters.

boomerang wrote:
Violent porn of rape and all types of imaginable abuse and torture is all over the internet for anyone to see, including kids just hitting puberty whose minds are more open to influence. This porn is easy to accidentally stumble upon (mixed in websites with nonviolent porn), and it can often seem very real (I've seen it).

Legally, violent porn is accessible to adults. I'd imagine that a future society would want to have similar restrictions in place. The kinky role-playing that's being discussed here is being discussed under the assumption that adults are involved. ('d imagine that the organizers of the munch share that assumption. Saying "Kids could see it" in this context is like arguing against the legalization of marjiuana by saying "But what if toddlers smoke it?".

boomerang wrote:
There is plenty of research evidence that movies, video games, porn, and other media does influence our opinions and behavior to at least some degree. It's silly to deny that just like it's silly to think it determines our opinions and behavior.

Sure, "media play a part in forming our opinions and behavior". Duh. There is no conclusive causal link between agressive media content and agressive behavior, although there are correlations. But there are other factors that correlate with aggressive behavior, like socioeconomic status or intelligence, upringing, political views, and perhaps some genetic factors

For instance, in terms of video games, there is a controversy whether it's the actual content or the dynamics of the game that elicit agressive behavior. (I for one remember feeling pretty agressive at times after failing at non-violent games like Tetris. There is a hilarious video on YouTube of a guy who smashes his screen after failing at a music video game.)

Anyway, originally, you stated:

boomerang wrote:
Also, engaging in these fantasies will likely strengthen and reinforce the negative things in our unconscious that caused them in the first place.

Can you back this up somehow?

Fleur
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Jan 3 2015 23:14

I haven't really got much of an opinion on that game, looks horrible but I've never played it. Not really my thing. I have otoh played Gears of War, GTA and Deadspace, which are all extremely violent games and I have never once, in my entire life felt inclined, or actually got into a fight, except within a sporting situation, where there are rules and everyone participating is consenting and enjoying the experience.

boomerang
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Jan 3 2015 23:42

Well I don't really want to debate this anymore, but I'll just say I hope we can continue our comradely discussions on other topics/threads (i.e. no hard feelings despite our disagreements on this).

Just want to make clear though, jura seemed to be thinking I want censorship, which I never said.

(Edit: Also I thought this article addresses the debate in a reasonable way: http://motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/blog/why-talking-about-violence-in-por...)

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jura
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Jan 3 2015 23:21
boomerang wrote:
Should I not be concerned that this game holds an attraction to some people, or the influence it might have on them? (This is the same way I feel about rape porn and other violent porn)

I think we should be much more concerned about the very real sexual violence going on every day. As far as influence is concerned, a part of the people who enjoy playing a game like this (or perhaps the part that enjoys it the most) probably have a mental disorder. The game could encourage them, but it might also work as a substitute for a time. I don't know, as I'm no psychiatrist. But I don't think censoring games and other content like this will solve the problem. Some really heinous sexual crimes were committed in the Soviet Union, i.e., in a society where media were under much stricter control and where pornography was almost non-existent (compared to the West).

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Noah Fence
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Jan 4 2015 00:28
Quote:
having their nappy changed by another informed and consenting adult

Well, many radicals I've known have frequently said that it's time for change but I had no idea that this is what they meant!

Seriously though, I understand that people's sexuality and their radical credentials aren't necessarily intertwined but the subject has been raised on an anarchist website and the fact that there is a strong right wing involvement in the scene was brought to our attention, so after that it's a bit disingenuous to start acting like fucking cops when a discussion is raised.
Personally, my interest has followed an opposite trajectory to the one of rising hyperbole of the people making accusations of Victorianism(translation: uh, you're such a fucking straight man). For that reason I'm well and truly sated on the topic.
Now excuse me, I have to turn the light off now, it's Saturday night and the wife is waiting to get the weekly unpleasantness over with. I'll be back in a minute and a half to check for responses.

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Serge Forward
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Jan 4 2015 00:38
Webby wrote:
and the fact that there is a strong right wing involvement in the scene was brought to our attention

I don't think there is a particularly strong right wing element anymore than there is a strong right wing element in other walks of life in capitalist society. In a specifically "kinky anarchist munch" however, you'd expect there to be no right wing involvement. From my own limited experience of it, this has been the case. But it doesn't mean you won't get the occasional dickhead involving themselves.... just like you do with the rest of the anarchist scene.

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Noah Fence
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Jan 4 2015 00:45

Serge - I was just repeating what someone said earlier in the thread, in fact, I believe it was emm that bought this up although I may be wrong. Anyhow, as far as I'm concerned I think it's probably time to put this to bed.

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the button
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Jan 4 2015 00:57

There's a strong rightwing element involved in many leisure pursuits. Football and CAMRA, to name but two. Am wondering why an anarchist munch is "problematic" in a way that an anarchist or antifascist football ultra group isn't. I'm not a fan of either football or BDSM, but I don't see the harm in anarchists who enjoy either of those two things having a social meetup with others who enjoy them too.

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Tyrion
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Jan 4 2015 01:37
Webby wrote:
What I really don't get here is that instead of tempered and patient responses to perfectly legitimate appeals for clarification we get snarky bombastic overeactions that distort the questions asked and further muddy the waters. The end result? A mild curiosity is transformed to mild suspicion.

Personally, I'm a bit put off by the idea that people's consensual sex play is something that needs to be clarified or explained in the first place. I can definitely see why some of the posts that have been more critical of this event would get a strong reaction. I used to play video games all the time and spent loads of time on video game forums, and I was always really angry when whatever prominent dickhead would say silly nonsense about how people who played GTA or whatever were inclined to go on murder sprees and so on--if someone enjoys pretending to do something, then surely they're at the very least more likely to want to do it in real life. I think it's essentially the same logic being applied here.

boomerang
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Jan 4 2015 01:39
Webby wrote:
Serge - I was just repeating what someone said earlier in the thread, in fact, I believe it was emm that bought this up although I may be wrong. Anyhow, as far as I'm concerned I think it's probably time to put this to bed.

Not before a nappy change, tho. wink

Lollypopcyanide
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Jan 7 2015 13:02

'Consent' is the issue.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jan 6 2015 11:03
Quote:
Quite different from getting kicks from pretending to abuse someone who is powerless or to be abused and powerless.

So, this has this already been said, but there's an an assumption here that only the dominating individual is the one getting off from this. In fact, it's sort of implied by statements like these that the person on the receiving end hasn't consented or is actively opposed to the situation.

Anyway, regarding violence and rape in society, I remember coming across this long-term, cross-cultural sociological study while at the university that said the one single most determinant factor regarding levels of violence and rape is war. And not just the combatants - although IIRC, they are most affected - but in wider societies as well. During war time, violence all across society increases and has a knock on effect for the generation raised under war-time conditions.

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Auld-bod
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Jan 6 2015 11:49

When the British army was sailing out to ‘liberate’ the Falkland Islands, I clearly remember a BBC correspondent on one of the boats casually mention that the troops had been enjoying the cinema showing hard core porn. This was never mentioned again.
I suspect seeing people as objects is an advantage if your job requires their type of ‘professional detachment’.