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Moving Gender Workshop @ No Border Camp, Ruskin House, 23 Coomee Rd Croydon CR01BD - 21 Friday September

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camille
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Sep 20 2007 11:31
Moving Gender Workshop @ No Border Camp, Ruskin House, 23 Coomee Rd Croydon CR01BD - 21 Friday September

Moving Gender Workshop @ No Border Camp
Ruskin House,
23 Coomee Rd
Croydon CR01BD
21 Friday September
10am (after workshop we will join the demonstration at Lunar House)

An open discussion on the relationship between national borders, gender and sexuality.
Or, how any challenge to one requires a challenge to the other.

-------

Everyday of our lives we are confronted with rigid ideas of gender and sexuality and thus our 'appropriate' roles in society. Anyone who does not conform is seen as 'other' or 'strange' or even 'dangerous'. In a society that always attempts to mark someone as 'other' (by race/sexuality/gender or any other means) we refuse to accept this present condition of nations and borders, the containment of people behind false divides that serves only to profit those in power.

Many Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Trans and queer people find themselves crossing varying kinds of borders constantly. From accepted to rejected, from rural area to urban, from country to country, from suburbs to gay ghettos. Rigid gender roles and enforced norms mean many queers spend their lives migrating in one way or another, not necessarily from places of victimization, but sometimes just to find an environment where they can find themselves.

In similar and at the same time different ways, women are constantly moving. In and out of paid work, inside and outside of male dominated spaces, and across borders. Migration, so the media, politicians, mainstream feminists and leftists, and commentators tell us is a dangerous activity. Yet, women move and do so for the same reasons as everyone else. They/we move to make money, to survive and to realise their projects, dreams, and relationships. They/we move to work. For women, 'home' is often a difficult place be free. When coming from poorer countries, women, especially working class women aren't presented with a wide variety of work-choices. The same can be said for many queer and trans migrants. In fact, it is fair to say that they/we have their/our work choices reduced overwhelming to a handful of professions: care work, nanny work, cleaning, domestic work, and sex work.

When single men decide to move, this it is understood as normal: ambitious, brave, self-sacrificing. So, when 'others' move why are they/we seen as pushed, obligated, coerced, or forced? Often migrant women, trans and queer sex workers are understood as trafficking victims or as modern-day slaves. Trafficking, in contrast to 'voluntary' migration, is defined as an involuntary and non-consensual form of migration geared towards exploitation of (women) migrants' labour, whether for sex, or other kinds of informal labour. Yet, the existence of forced labour is not unique to the sex industry, nor are women the only people caught in exploitative and damaging situations. How do we overcome and change the trafficking rhetoric? How can we acknowledge and promote autonomous migration and freedom of movement for all?

The moral panic of trafficking has resulted in numerous state and non-state interventions: firstly, via the establishment of 'protective schemes' for
'victims of trafficking' and secondly, through the tightening of border and visa regimes to combat organized criminal networks and punish via deportation
those same victims so recently rescued. In contrast to the rhetoric about 'rescuing exploited women', 'anti-trafficking' interventions (raids,
rehabilitation, court orders) lead to increasing criminalisation, illegalisation, and heightening the exploitation of migrants of all genders. Anti-trafficking campaigns, facilitated by various feminist, community and left organisations, policy bodies and groups, often dangerously collapse violence against women, women's migration, and sex work into one category. This denies women's agency to choose to migrate and/or do sex work, and shifts the attention from the home where most violence against women occurs.

This is unsurprising when you consider the ongoing prejudice and hysteria over sex, sexuality, sex roles and practices as a method of control. The best way to keep oppressed people busy and quiet, is to leave as few possibilities to challenge the dominant paradigm as possible. Women must stay where they are and behave as they should, and so should queer and trans people. That is why we will discuss ways to change the terms of analysis of so-called 'trafficking' from violence against women and organized crime to migration and labour, whether is it paid or unpaid labour. Our aim is to envisage new analytical possibilities and build a radical political agenda and alliance starting from migrant women, trans and queer people lives/struggles.

Some ideas for discussion

What alternative political practices and discourses can we create that would actually support the struggles of migrant women, trans and queer people,
whether they are employed in the sex industry, in domestic work, or in any other industry?

What can we do to create alliances with other struggles (and their existing networks) across Europe?

What kind of alliances do we need to create in order to shift the terms of this debate, in particular in feminist politics and in the left, and in order to
fight the stigmatisation we experience in the wider society?

We plan for the event to be multi-language. If you need or you can provide translation into English please get in touch

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Tacks
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Sep 20 2007 15:27

sounds a bit gay.

Deezer
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Sep 20 2007 22:56

sounds like a load of aul shite*. But then apparently us on here are just plain old reactionaries talking in a toilet...

ps I fucking hate people who use the term paradigm - wankers! There is absofuckinglootly no need for it!

*unless wayne wrote it

rata
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Sep 21 2007 08:30

You know how that post-anarchist institution UN slogan goes - "Connecting through culture, celebrating diversity!"

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the button
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Sep 21 2007 15:40
Quote:
Rigid gender roles and enforced norms mean many queers spend their lives migrating in one way or another, not necessarily from places of victimization, but sometimes just to find an environment where they can find themselves.

Which is exactly like travelling across Europe in a shipping container, with 15 of your mates.

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jef costello
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Sep 21 2007 16:00
the button wrote:
Quote:
Rigid gender roles and enforced norms mean many queers spend their lives migrating in one way or another, not necessarily from places of victimization, but sometimes just to find an environment where they can find themselves.

Which is exactly like travelling across Europe in a shipping container, with 15 of your mates.

Just because you don't want to do it there's something wrong with it? roll eyes

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the button
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Sep 21 2007 16:48

tbh I'm just waiting for RevolutionRugger to turn up on this thread & denounce me as a heterocapitalist.

*taps fingers*

raw
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Sep 21 2007 17:55

It doesn't surprise me the lack of support from these boards to anything apart from leftist worker fetishism, but surely camille as a new poster should be treated with a bit of respect. I mean, there has been absolutely no response by the supposed 480+ people that post here about the No Borders Camp and their initiatives. Nothing! No one from here is coming to the demo or has shown any interested. Are people for Borders? Maybe Tacks is, but instead of criticizing some discussion connected to the camp surely you do better in contributing.

I was in croydon at the Lunar House reporting demo, amazing the reaction from people - a huge amount of racism by a group of 3 white postal workers. Here's what they said
postie 1: "do you know what there doing there?"
postie 2: "Its a demonstration about racism, surely they should be demonstrating at all those cunts that come into our country"

A young black postie turns up, the white one says to him "Hey mate, its all your lot down there, why don't you go join 'em"

Believe me, this was not uncommon. I almost had a fight with some fucking labourers (one black and one white). The usual "get a job", I shouted back (ad infinitum) what "£6.00 per hour like you, I was earning that when I was 18". Fucking cunts.

BTW - the coach is full coming down from central London to crawley

Ales
www.noborders.org.uk

p.s. John will remember similar stuff I said regarding a women working in cafe, slagging people off who were trying shut down DSEi. Hence perhaps his opinion that I'm some how "anti-working class". Well I'm anti the fucking lackey, plebs who follow cap in hand licking there bosses arse, whilst spouting off racist shite - I see them the same as the bosses, they are the enemy as well and should be treated as such.

raw
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Sep 21 2007 20:55
revol68 wrote:
rigth so this story of racism by three posties is suppoused to be what? A critique of suppoused fetishisation of 'the working clarse'? I don't think anyone is niave to imagine 'workers' are Loachian heroes or some such shite.
Quote:
The usual "get a job", I shouted back (ad infinitum) what "£6.00 per hour like you, I was earning that when I was 18".

That's just wankerish, I mean yeah you're annoyed and probably not thinking but to use someone's low wages against them is rather pathetic, forgivable in the heat of the moment perhaps but to repeat it on a message board like you are proud of such rapier wit, is cuntish.

Not at all, there are people who are just annoying little pricks that they need to be brought down to size. In this case, the "get a job" comments - something they were shouting to two ugandan women with us as well - was an attempt to to belittle our protest against racist immigration controls. My slanging match with them was me saying, "who the fuck you think you are, do you think your above it all" - Seriously if you were in my situation you would have done the same. Anyhows, it was fairly depressing though we were 100+ people and we did talk to dozens of people and handed out hundreds of leaflets - some of which were directed at the workers working in these reporting centres (I will post the text up later), the others were for migrants detailing their rights and also the 8 page tabloid No Borders paper.

Apparently there are around 250+ people at the camp, so we hope we wil be about 500 for tommorows demo. Heres a little video of thursdays "hello crawley" event
http://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/09/381616.html

raw
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Sep 21 2007 21:24

No I wouldn't use racism to insult people - though I will use all manner of things to wind people up.

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Sep 22 2007 11:22
Quote:
It doesn't surprise me the lack of support from these boards to anything apart from leftist worker fetishism, but surely camille as a new poster should be treated with a bit of respect. I mean, there has been absolutely no response by the supposed 480+ people that post here about the No Borders Camp and their initiatives. Nothing! No one from here is coming to the demo or has shown any interested. Are people for Borders? Maybe Tacks is, but instead of criticizing some discussion connected to the camp surely you do better in contributing.

raw - nail on head mate tbh - i don't think many ppl here like the term 'no borders' as an immigration campaign. I'm supporting the camp and supporting the individual No Borders projects but there is no fuckin way i'm working with 'No Borders' as my immiediate response to the immigration debate.

if you want, lets chat about that and make the thread useful.

I can't believe you are surprised by the racism in the croydon area. A mate who lives there was like 'they're doing it where?'

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Sep 22 2007 12:28
raw wrote:

p.s. John will remember similar stuff I said regarding a women working in cafe, slagging people off who were trying shut down DSEi. Hence perhaps his opinion that I'm some how "anti-working class". Well I'm anti the fucking lackey, plebs who follow cap in hand licking there bosses arse, whilst spouting off racist shite - I see them the same as the bosses, they are the enemy as well and should be treated as such.

Oh for fucks sake, see shit like this justmakes me wonder what you even go on demonstartions for . By demonstrating with a few hundred people, you aren;t going to change the governments mind on immigration, you aren't going to change fucking jack shit, the only way to do that is to win over mass support, that means you are out there to change peoples fucking minds.
When we did anti-war demos back in colchester we used to get all sorts of abuse, but you don't shout abuse back, you try and agrue with people. If someone shouts geta job at you, you either a) ignore it or b) you fucking take the effort to go and fucking talk to them. If you can't be botjhered to make the effort solely because you think they are ''cunts'', then why the fuck have you even bothered to show up on the demo, unless its just some sort of moral posture on your part or something.

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Sep 22 2007 20:36

that's total bollocks; standing up for yourselfin the right situation is 10 times more effective.

Going and trying to have a debate with someone who shouted 'get a job' at you is beautifully Student Grant thing to do, i love it.

Knowing Raw, i can be fairly sure that he was approachable and talked to lots of passers by about the demo - giving it back to racists and fucking idiots is the right thing to do. Most politico's don't not cos they have better moral position, but cos they can't be bothered/don't have the pluck.

raw
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Sep 22 2007 23:50
cantdocartwheels wrote:
raw wrote:

p.s. John will remember similar stuff I said regarding a women working in cafe, slagging people off who were trying shut down DSEi. Hence perhaps his opinion that I'm some how "anti-working class". Well I'm anti the fucking lackey, plebs who follow cap in hand licking there bosses arse, whilst spouting off racist shite - I see them the same as the bosses, they are the enemy as well and should be treated as such.

Oh for fucks sake, see shit like this justmakes me wonder what you even go on demonstartions for . By demonstrating with a few hundred people, you aren;t going to change the governments mind on immigration, you aren't going to change fucking jack shit, the only way to do that is to win over mass support, that means you are out there to change peoples fucking minds.
When we did anti-war demos back in colchester we used to get all sorts of abuse, but you don't shout abuse back, you try and agrue with people. If someone shouts geta job at you, you either a) ignore it or b) you fucking take the effort to go and fucking talk to them. If you can't be botjhered to make the effort solely because you think they are ''cunts'', then why the fuck have you even bothered to show up on the demo, unless its just some sort of moral posture on your part or something.

I prefer people to be with us. I'd prefered those couple of posties to be slightly supportive, enuff for me perhaps to challenge and talk to them - but anyhow - you know the type of people these are, they think because they're white and english that they are the best things in the world and nothing else exists outside that. In that mentality they will support this barbaric system and provide that system with its grassroots agitators ready to undermine any opposing movement. Hence my hatred of these people. If they change their opinions then I doubt it will be me that'll change it.

The whole point of the week is to challenge and change peoples minds - did you not read the fact that 80 of us were in crawley handing out the free newspaper explaining in detailed and easy to read language our ideas.

The struggle is hard, considering the current climate, but I think it was a very powerful thing that was organised.

raw

p.s. I may come over a bit emotional, reason being my friend and her 18 month old daughter were locked up by immigration police yesterday and await deportation this week. Isn't life great?!

I think we had a good day, 500+ people - a good show of anti-fascist and anarchist solidarity to migrants.

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Sep 23 2007 00:25
raw wrote:
No I wouldn't use racism to insult people - though I will use all manner of things to wind people up.

So racism is absolutely out of line, but pouring scorn on people for not making as much money as you is perfectly okay? roll eyes

Don't get me wrong, I've gotten wound up over people being pricks while I'm out leafletting and said some deeply unwise stuff in response, but for fucks sake, don't start trying to justify saying something out of line after the fact.

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Devrim
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Sep 23 2007 09:16
madashell wrote:
raw wrote:
No I wouldn't use racism to insult people - though I will use all manner of things to wind people up.

So racism is absolutely out of line, but pouring scorn on people for not making as much money as you is perfectly okay? roll eyes

Don't get me wrong, I've gotten wound up over people being pricks while I'm out leafletting and said some deeply unwise stuff in response, but for fucks sake, don't start trying to justify saying something out of line after the fact.

This is obviously correct. What raw said was pretty shocking. It is even worse trying to justify it after the fact.

Devrim

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Joseph Kay
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Sep 23 2007 10:35
raw wrote:
I think we had a good day, 500+ people - a good show of anti-fascist and anarchist solidarity to migrants.

good to hear it went well, last i heard half of brighton was heading up (SP and the like tailgate anarchists these days tongue)

raw
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Sep 23 2007 10:40

I think you either get were I'm coming from or you don't - sorry

raw
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Sep 23 2007 10:45
Tacks wrote:
Quote:
It doesn't surprise me the lack of support from these boards to anything apart from leftist worker fetishism, but surely camille as a new poster should be treated with a bit of respect. I mean, there has been absolutely no response by the supposed 480+ people that post here about the No Borders Camp and their initiatives. Nothing! No one from here is coming to the demo or has shown any interested. Are people for Borders? Maybe Tacks is, but instead of criticizing some discussion connected to the camp surely you do better in contributing.

raw - nail on head mate tbh - i don't think many ppl here like the term 'no borders' as an immigration campaign. I'm supporting the camp and supporting the individual No Borders projects but there is no fuckin way i'm working with 'No Borders' as my immiediate response to the immigration debate.

if you want, lets chat about that and make the thread useful.

I can't believe you are surprised by the racism in the croydon area. A mate who lives there was like 'they're doing it where?'

I'll start a thread in thought - cheers

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Sep 24 2007 00:50
revol68 wrote:
rigth so this story of racism by three posties is suppoused to be what? A critique of suppoused fetishisation of 'the working clarse'? I don't think anyone is niave to imagine 'workers' are Loachian heroes or some such shite.
Quote:
The usual "get a job", I shouted back (ad infinitum) what "£6.00 per hour like you, I was earning that when I was 18".

That's just wankerish, I mean yeah you're annoyed and probably not thinking but to use someone's low wages against them is rather pathetic, forgivable in the heat of the moment perhaps but to repeat it on a message board like you are proud of such rapier wit, is cuntish.

1) loach does not idealise the working class, this is a wankers theory. He writes about normal people doing brave things; the events in the story carry the characters, not the other way round. His recent best, Sweet 16, is about a heroic person who actually, far from organising his pizza hut into a workers co-op for immigrant lesbian cripples, is selling heroin, for which the director makes no apology. His characters rarely overcome their central flaws, such as alchohol or pride or religion, let alone overcome prevailing societal prejudices to warrant the creation of 'Loachian' as derogatory term for right-on caricatures.

2)

Quote:
The usual "get a job", I shouted back (ad infinitum) what "£6.00 per hour like you, I was earning that when I was 18".

He didn't just randomly shout that, he shouted it as people who told him to 'get a job'. I see his response as saying 'i have a job' + 'fuck you'. It rightly points out the stupidity of somebody earning shit money saying 'get a job' - what like their's is so good? I have no idea why Raw has felt the need to post it here tbh, pretty dumb.

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Sep 24 2007 23:33

Oh for fucks sake do you honestly think that people shout get a job at demos because they think their.job is ''amazing''?
I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the reason someone might have contempt for what you're doing is because they see it as offering them pretty much nothing, again i have to say that if you can't argue your way past that and show that what your doing does benefit them then what the fuck are you even doing on that demo.
I mean we're dealing with immigration here of all things, you can't just dismiss everyone who criticises immigration as a ''racist'', you have to fucking make the arguments simple as.

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Sep 25 2007 00:18
cantdocartwheels wrote:
Oh for fucks sake do you honestly think that people shout get a job at demos because they think their job is ''amazing''?

No, making it a fucking stupid thing to say! Thats my point.

Quote:
I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the reason someone might have contempt for what you're doing is because they see it as offering them pretty much nothing, again i have to say that if you can't argue your way past that and show that what your doing does benefit them then what the fuck are you even doing on that demo.

Actually not all demo's are outreach exercise for the general public, some can be downright anti-social but a demonstration of something else: Mayday for instance can be used as a demonstration of intent, size or even force and still be worth doing. In this particular situation, yeah racism should have been countered if it was being advanced seriously or if people want to find out about immigration/argue with no borders; some passing tossers giving does not require a well sourced lecture, and would not benefit from one.

Quote:
I mean we're dealing with immigration here of all things, you can't just dismiss everyone who criticises immigration as a ''racist'', you have to fucking make the arguments simple as.

yeah yeah, fuck whoever said that..

oh wait no one did.

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Sep 25 2007 07:48
Tacks wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
Oh for fucks sake do you honestly think that people shout get a job at demos because they think their job is ''amazing''?

No, making it a fucking stupid thing to say! Thats my point.

I think you'll find insulting people who think you have nothing to offer them is an even more stupid thing to say, since it pretty much proves their point.

Quote:
Actually not all demo's are outreach exercise for the general public, some can be downright anti-social but a demonstration of something else:

We're discussing a few hundred strong pro-immigration demo here you muppet.

Quote:
Mayday for instance can be used as a demonstration of intent,

Lol, in britainn in 2007? Please tell me you're joking.

Quote:
yeah racism should have been countered if it was being advanced seriously or if people want to find out about immigration/argue with no borders; some passing tossers giving does not require a well sourced lecture, and would not benefit from one.

Even if you think its a waste of time giving the arguement, it hardly fucking excuses screaming. ''you are poor haha'' at them. Jesus why am i een having this arguement with someone who's supposed to be a member of the AF. I mean it may not be in the aims and principles but the idea of ''don't take the piss out of people for having low paid jobs while on a demo' is pretty fucking basic.

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Sep 25 2007 07:48
Tacks wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
Oh for fucks sake do you honestly think that people shout get a job at demos because they think their job is ''amazing''?

No, making it a fucking stupid thing to say! Thats my point.

I think you'll find insulting people who think you have nothing to offer them is an even more stupid thing to say, since it pretty much proves their point.

Quote:
Actually not all demo's are outreach exercise for the general public, some can be downright anti-social but a demonstration of something else:

We're discussing a few hundred strong pro-immigration demo here you muppet.

Quote:
Mayday for instance can be used as a demonstration of intent,

Lol, in britainn in 2007? Please tell me you're joking.

Quote:
yeah racism should have been countered if it was being advanced seriously or if people want to find out about immigration/argue with no borders; some passing tossers giving does not require a well sourced lecture, and would not benefit from one.

Even if you think its a waste of time giving the arguement, it hardly fucking excuses screaming. ''you are poor haha'' at them. Jesus why am i een having this arguement with someone who's supposed to be a member of the AF. I mean it may not be in the aims and principles but the idea of ''don't take the piss out of people for having low paid jobs while on a demo' is pretty fucking basic.

raw
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Sep 25 2007 08:49

Listen Cuntdo,

I don't go around insulting people on their wages or their alledged poverty. Look at the context. If you want to go around and entertain any fuckwit worker who IS NOT interested in anything we do then thats your problem. For me I rather have a bit of dignity. I mean where do YOU draw the line. Do you believe in a physical confrontation of racists and fascist workers?

I think people like cuntdo fetsishes the working class as some chosen race.

you are the sad muppet in this case.

raw

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Sep 25 2007 09:31

cantdo not for the first time you going way off the handle over what, something you feel strongly about? No, some thing you feel strongly that you can have a really good shout about. Doesn't it feel good? get all that pent up anger and feelings of impotence out. Have you tried hurting domestic pets?

You refuse to see any context and a drawing a ridiculous picture of a some turn-the-cheek lefty which has a witty yet informative response to 'get a job' yelled by a passerby. Well mate, glad you are the gold tongued PR wizard of the anarchist, look forward you and your outgoing win-em-over ways on the streets in future.

[this is my last post on this thread]

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Joseph Kay
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Sep 25 2007 09:32
Tacks wrote:
Have you tried hurting domestic pets?

he's made jack drink piss if that counts

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Sep 25 2007 09:54
raw wrote:
Listen Cuntdo,

I don't go around insulting people on their wages or their alledged poverty. Look at the context. If you want to go around and entertain any fuckwit worker who IS NOT interested in anything we do then thats your problem. For me I rather have a bit of dignity. I mean where do YOU draw the line. Do you believe in a physical confrontation of racists and fascist workers?

I think people like cuntdo fetsishes the working class as some chosen race.

you are the sad muppet in this case.

raw

I can't believe that you're using misogynistic insults on this of all threads.

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Sep 25 2007 10:18
revol68 wrote:
also Tacks is it your goal to clean the arse of every 'name' in the anarchist millieu? it must get confusing what hole your nose needs to be in at anyone time.

For fuck's sake revol, can you stop reading my mind?

raw
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Sep 25 2007 11:03

Yawn.....typical libcom bullshit responses from the usual losers - and interesting to note again that no comment what ever on the No Borders Camp or the demonstrations - just this little bitchy remarks.

this is also my last comment on this thread.

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Devrim
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Sep 25 2007 11:29
raw wrote:
Yawn.....typical libcom bullshit responses from the usual losers

Hardly surprising when you behave like a refuge from Harry Enfield. I think that the telling fact is that you would even think it let alone say it. It shows a complete lack of class perspective. To then go on defending it after the fact just confirms the fact.

raw wrote:
interesting to note again that no comment what ever on the No Borders Camp or the demonstrations

Yes, I don't think that there is anything interesting about it at all. It is just another activisty single issue campaign probably supported by lots of people who look down on workers because they don't earn as much as them.
I would go as far to say that if you can't argue against a few workers without class prejudice coming out then you really shouldn't bother.
You write:

raw wrote:
For me I rather have a bit of dignity. I mean where do YOU draw the line. Do you believe in a physical confrontation of racists and fascist workers?

I think sometimes it is necessary, but it is better to try to talk to people first.
From what you said though the argument wasn't with the racist postmen:

raw wrote:
Believe me, this was not uncommon. I almost had a fight with some fucking labourers (one black and one white). The usual "get a job", I shouted back (ad infinitum) what "£6.00 per hour like you, I was earning that when I was 18". Fucking cunts.

So you got pissed off that some people were questioning what you were doing, so you decided to tell them how much more money you earnt than them.
Well done.
Devrim