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Anti-Deutsche Antifa

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PaulMarsh
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Oct 17 2006 21:45
Anti-Deutsche Antifa

I am sure there was a thread on the above on the old site - and wondered if it had been lost? I have gone back a few pages and can't seem to find it. If I remember there was even a couple of links to English language articles they had written on why they think how they do.

For the unaware, the Anti-Deutsche Antifa are the anti-fascists who like to wave Israeli flags and wear IDF badges at demo's, and generally deplore the existance of a Unified Germany.

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Tacks
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Oct 18 2006 19:58

i knew about the zionism, but why don't they want a unified germany?

who do they support outside of antifascism? Which parties or politics?

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PaulMarsh
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Oct 18 2006 23:51

They support England at football - we bombed those nasty nazis!

Albeit a v long time ago.........

lem
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Oct 19 2006 03:10

Someone went mental on Autopsy claiming to be Anti-Deutsch. They had to be banned!

Vaneigemappreci...
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Oct 19 2006 08:42

are these people insane?

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K-TownBootboy
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Oct 19 2006 22:18

http://www.volkerradke.looplab.org/sonderweg-en.html

Anti-German for beginners

aswad
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Nov 13 2006 00:04
Tacks wrote:
who do they support outside of antifascism? Which parties or politics?

Who they support outside of antifascism? Israel, USA, and their armies.

They are strictly pro-Israel and in support of anything IDF do. Any criticism of Israel or its army is instantly and loudly met with the reproach of anti-semitism.

Likewise, they support the USA and the US army and its missions in Afghanistan, Iraq etc. They also criticize people who were opposed against the Vietnam war for being Nazis as it was a characteristic of Nazis to be against the USA. Before the invasion of Iraq, they called for a preemptive nuclear strike of Israel against Iraq.

In a similar manner, they are against any peace movement (which to them is a 'peace mob').

Quite incidentially, they have also managed to call anti-zionist Jewish persons 'anti-semitic'.

They have found their arch-enemy in anything and everybody of Muslim faith and only speak of 'Islamic fascism'. They classify Islam as a backward culture (their description, instead of religion)and see the state of Israel as an achievement of western civilisation to spite the advance of Arab-Islamic claims for sovereignty. Consequently, they reject Palestinian autonomy.

They perceive Arabs and Muslims in general as backward (mildly put) and in fact describe them in terms right out of the Nazi vocabulary re 'Untermenschen'. Anti-deutsche twits have also assaulted migrants whom they took for Muslims, both verbally and physically. So while taking special pride in being paragons of anti-semitism, they are definitely racist.

They also managed to become quite (in)famous for taking along Israeli and US flags to every protest they showed up for, in many cases in violation of prior agreements of not carrying any flags (if you criticize these violations, of course you're anti-semitic). It seems they are getting somewhat less numerous as of late. We aren't shedding too many tears....

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Nov 13 2006 00:57

fuck me!

how many were there...?

Vaneigemappreci...
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Nov 13 2006 11:41

So these guys basically try and combat the anti-semitism of the german far right, with their own unquestioning devotion to the Israeli state and all the atrocities it commits in the name of defending the israeli people.

The quivalent would be a political group supporting the actions of islamic extremists in order to combat the stance of the BNP and to denounce anyone who criticised Islam as being "islamophobic", sounds familiar. Or even antifacist groups supporting irish nationalism in opposition to the far rights support of british rule in northern ireland, crazy shit embarrassed

aswad
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Nov 13 2006 13:36
Tacks wrote:
fuck me!

I don't really want to sound like another poster here recently concerned about age (it was under 25, I believe) - but even if I don't care about your age, you might probably care about mine wink

Quote:
how many were there...?

Not all that many, although even a handful of them is too many. They received much more attention than deserved in more than one respect, e.g. as there were a few magazines promoting their ideas, i.e. the editorial staff (or the editor) taking an anti-deutsche stand and repeating that ad nauseam via their media. So given that plus a loudmouthed attitude full of righteousness means that there was much ado about a quantite negligeable. As to these editors/journalists who all happen to be well past their teens, I'd like to add that there must be easier ways to ruin your reputation, I just can't think of one right now.

As far as I gathered, only few of them came from or tried to make it into the anarchist scene here. There was one group who tried to join the federation but got discouraged. As we were just redoing our principles anyway, we added a paragraph about membership with us not being compatible with holding authoritarian/racist/statist etc ideas.

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Nov 13 2006 13:42
aswad wrote:
Tacks wrote:
fuck me!

I don't really want to sound like another poster here recently concerned about age (it was under 25, I believe)

that was a giggle BTW, thats not my age - just toying w/ hergrin
If she doesn't bite i'll delete it in the week.

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Nov 13 2006 13:46
aswad wrote:
They received much more attention than deserved in more than one respect, e.g. as there were a few magazines promoting their ideas, i.e. the editorial staff (or the editor) taking an anti-deutsche stand and repeating that ad nauseam via their media.

What magasines? Independent zine type things, or proper commercial outfits? Idiots like this are always more willing to talk to the commercial media sad

aswad
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Nov 13 2006 16:45
Tacks wrote:
What magasines? Independent zine type things, or proper commercial outfits? Idiots like this are always more willing to talk to the commercial media sad

Errm, neither nor.
Here's what Grrman wiki says about the mags in question:

Bahamas
founded in 1992 in Hamburg by a minority faction of dissolved KB (Communist Association)

Phase 2
founded in 2001 after Antifascist Action AABO dissolved. Their first issue appeared July 2001

Jungle World
founded in 1997. They aim(ed?) at being an undogmatic left mag.
JW was founded by a majority of journalist staff of paper Junge Welt (Young World) who after a dispute with the publisher occupied the premises. Junge W. started out as the organ of SED youth organisation FDJ (Free German Youth), they continued after 1990 with a marxist orientation. Selling 17,000 copies initially, Jungle W was down to 12,000 copies in 2004.

konkret
founded in 1957 by Rainer Roehl (also its predecessor Students' Courier in 1955 which was supported by GDR youth organisation FDJ). Until 1964, konkret had tight ideological and financial links to GDR. Among its staff was Roehl's wife, Ulrike Meinhof, who was chief editor between 1962-64. In 1974, Roehl left the mag and since then its publisher has been Hermann L. Gremliza. Roehl quite incidentially has become one of the new converts to the extreme right a few years ago.

aswad
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Nov 13 2006 16:54
Tacks wrote:
that was a giggle BTW, thats not my age - just toying w/ hergrin
If she doesn't bite i'll delete it in the week.

Naughty, naughty! wink
Such hard choices for Ms Buttplug - either she gives a damn about you being a minor and will receive flak for being in the bey's league, or she does give a damn and will receive flak for not kicking the bey's arse....
As the Grrman proverb wisely observes: either way you turn, your arse will remain on the flip side grin

aswad
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Nov 13 2006 17:01
PaulMarsh wrote:
They support England at football - we bombed those nasty nazis!

Albeit a v long time ago.........

Time doesn't matter....
Take a look at the website K-Town linked: at the start page, the twit put up the photo of a highly decorated Red Army sniper for having offed so many Nazis in WWII. I read somewhere that they like to worship such photos - orthodox icons reloaded, probably.

Black Flag
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Nov 13 2006 17:44

I was thinking of joining antifa,now I'm having second thoughts.

Black Flag
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Nov 13 2006 17:44

Fucking zionist nazis!

ftony
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Nov 13 2006 17:56

well surely there's only one way of getting rid of these nutters, and that's getting in and kicking 'em out!

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Nov 13 2006 18:12
aswad wrote:
Errm, neither nor.
Here's what Grrman wiki says about the mags in question:

Shit. I'm still really really puzzled as to how 'anti-deutsche' is a left position - did all these magasines actually consider themselve left wing whilst writing this shit? What kind of Communist Association, dissolved or undissolved, stalinist, maoist or eurocommunist, would support the invasion of iraq and view arabs as untermenschen?!

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Nov 13 2006 18:27

i know i know, but this is not the UK or america, its the continent...

also, lefties are opportunist nutters, in that they will support anything that they think looks good fighting an 'imperialist' army - i.e. hezbollah or the insurgents in iraq - but who would support the number one capitalist power in the world from a left perspective?

The AWL may be caricatured by us, but they never came close to this.

aswad
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Nov 13 2006 19:46
Tacks wrote:
Shit. I'm still really really puzzled as to how 'anti-deutsche' is a left position - did all these magasines actually consider themselve left wing whilst writing this shit? What kind of Communist Association, dissolved or undissolved, stalinist, maoist or eurocommunist, would support the invasion of iraq and view arabs as untermenschen?!

They did and still do.
( As an aside: whilst we tend to shake our heads at certain - errm: developments taking place say in the US, we're quite successful at being wankers ourselves at times here on the continent wink )

If it comes to what everybody else thinks of these mags and (I hesitate to mention the term) these 'thinkers' - well, that's quite a different kettle of fish.
In the research of the mags I came across articles predicting that a good part of the AD scene could be expected to drift off to the extreme right eventually. We shall see what we shall see.

I haven't stopped wondering whether the protagonists of this stuff are in it because the 'good jobs' were taken everywhere else and they rather opened up their own show to be important and known, no matter what the issue was - or whether they're being serious and mean it.

That AD outfit, however, don't have fixed structures, and protagonists and rank-and-file have various political backgrounds.
KB had a very interesting history, having started out as one of the so-called K-Groups in the 70ies (and iirc with Maoist leanings then), also recruiting mostly students and keeping a tight control over their membership. When the Green Party came into being, KB central comitee decided to 'undermine' the party in order to turn it into a revolutionary party (TM). Things backfired, though, because that part of KB membership active with the Greens got naughty and uppity, rejected KB's 'democratic centralism' and got themselves infected with grassroots ideas (veeeery baaaad), while those not polluted by petty-bourgois ideas more or less had the urge to smash the others faces in (counter-revolutionary scum, class traitors). KB's Green experiment thus resulted in a lengthy and unsavoury infighting and KB eventually was dissolved. Our former Enviro Sec with the SocDem/Green government, a certain Herr Juergen Trittin, used to be a stout member of KB in his time (since both me and him were at the same university in the 70ies, I remember having seen him distributing flyers and stuff). Anyways, many of the former KB membership stayed in the Green Party, while the rest sort of sulkingly tried to pretend they kept their upper lip stiff. I think the Bahamas staff comes from the 'non-infected' faction, but I may be wrong on that.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Nov 13 2006 20:24
Quote:
Tim wroteI
I was thinking of joining antifa,now I'm having second thoughts.

the talk here is about Anti-deutsche not antifa, unless that was you were thinking of joining a band of pro-israeli nut jobs?

Quote:
Fucking zionist nazis!

Anti-semite! wink

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Felix Frost
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Nov 13 2006 20:40

I don't know why people find this so shocking. Why is supporting Israel worse than supporting Hezbollah, Hamas and the "resistance" in Iraq?

Leftists support totalitarian regimes and mass murdering dictators all over the world. Why the shock and outrage when some of them decide to support Israel?

aswad
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Nov 13 2006 20:41
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
Quote:
Tim wrote
Fucking zionist nazis!

Anti-semite! :wink:

Hey, you qualify! grin

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Nov 13 2006 20:46
Felix Frost wrote:
I don't know why people find this so shocking. Why is supporting Israel worse than supporting Hezbollah, Hamas and the "resistance" in Iraq?

Because of their fallacious ideas about anti-imperilialism. They always attack america and Israel.

Using an objective/i-was-born-yesterday perspective, yes there is no difference. Spending any time near the world of the left world demonstrate otherwise.

aswad
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Nov 13 2006 21:54
Felix Frost wrote:
I don't know why people find this so shocking. Why is supporting Israel worse than supporting Hezbollah, Hamas and the "resistance" in Iraq?

Support of Israel is not the issue.
The ADs do a lot more than that. I mean it is a bit of a cheek (especially for Grrmans) to go calling anti-zionist persons of Jewish faith anti-semitic.

Demanding a pre-emptive nuclear strike of Israel against Iraq, on the other hand, is nothing to be proud of, especially when this is combined with a language of racial hatred against *all* Arabs and in fact all Muslims. Muslims get described in terms of "racial" inferiority by the ADs - like they were genetically inable to practice democracy and tolerance, let alone grasp these concepts. Israel building a wall to keep the indesirables out was welcomed by ADs, and any land expropriation during this action was praised as it would probably rid the world of some of the Muslim scum by starvation, and good riddance.

Hailing the US army for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as the only proper way to deal with those $&()==? is also not a point of view contributing to make ADs highly popular within the broad left scene, I take it. Hailing Bush for being a great president and praising his rigorousness against these Untermenschen is not, either.

Oh, and if you cannot fully share such views, you'll be denounced as an anti-semite, of course. Like, as another example, Israeli draft resisters, or Israelis seeking to bring about an understanding with their Arab neighbours. Or US citizens against these wars.

Dave Smith
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Nov 13 2006 22:30

Maybe if we are lucky AD will find their arses anti semetic
and blow their fucking brains out.

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Nov 14 2006 21:52

From what I've been told alot of (or some) the ADs have dropped socialism as an objective because only a strong USA can defend Israel from the evil arabs.

I also think it's important to notice that they seem to believe that germans are more anti-semetic than other nationalities, alost as if germans are evil by enheritance (can't spell that word).

I'm also told that they think Hamburg is the center of anti-semites in Germany - they hate Copenhagen too

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Nov 14 2006 23:25
K-TownBootboy wrote:
From what I've been told alot of (or some) the ADs have dropped socialism as an objective because only a strong USA can defend Israel from the evil arabs.

From what the german comrade was saying, the position which is distinctly Antideutsche has never had socilialism as an objective (?).

I'm still at pains to understand how AD could think they were left or could relate to the left. Its seems to be a image crisis for leftists. An attempt at controversy, a critique for its own sake. AD can't actually have any genuine goals surely. Israel is safe and america run the world already.

aswad
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Nov 17 2006 21:14

German indymedia today carries an article by a German AD antifa group from the town of Saarbruecken.
Apparently, several people decided to go to a protest organized against IDF attacks on civilians and carried an Israeli flag. This resulted in participants attacking these people. Police are investigating against these 3 for "disturbing a meeting". One young man now had his home raided and police carried off his computer to secure further material. In their statement, the group now complain that one gets harassed for showing jewish symbols in Germany.

One comment to the article added that, among the protesters, were persons who had lost family members because of IDF air raids and thus felt provoked by this action.

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Felix Frost
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Nov 18 2006 11:49
aswad wrote:
Felix Frost wrote:
I don't know why people find this so shocking. Why is supporting Israel worse than supporting Hezbollah, Hamas and the "resistance" in Iraq?

Support of Israel is not the issue.
The ADs do a lot more than that. I mean it is a bit of a cheek (especially for Grrmans) to go calling anti-zionist persons of Jewish faith anti-semitic.

Demanding a pre-emptive nuclear strike of Israel against Iraq, on the other hand, is nothing to be proud of, especially when this is combined with a language of racial hatred against *all* Arabs and in fact all Muslims. Muslims get described in terms of "racial" inferiority by the ADs - like they were genetically inable to practice democracy and tolerance, let alone grasp these concepts. Israel building a wall to keep the indesirables out was welcomed by ADs, and any land expropriation during this action was praised as it would probably rid the world of some of the Muslim scum by starvation, and good riddance.

Hailing the US army for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as the only proper way to deal with those $&()==? is also not a point of view contributing to make ADs highly popular within the broad left scene, I take it. Hailing Bush for being a great president and praising his rigorousness against these Untermenschen is not, either.

Oh, and if you cannot fully share such views, you'll be denounced as an anti-semite, of course. Like, as another example, Israeli draft resisters, or Israelis seeking to bring about an understanding with their Arab neighbours. Or US citizens against these wars.

Actually, I think this is about supporting Israel. This stuff is pretty standard Zionist propaganda, and hardly any worse than supporting state capitalist dictatorships and denouncing critics of these regimes as paid CIA agents, as has been common on the left.

Also, I think you are mischaracterizing the Anti-German position somewhat. Their argument for supporting the US invasions in Afganistan and Iraq wasn't that muslims are "Untermenchen," but the reactionary character of those regimes.