Isn't veganism great, and why can't we all get along?

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gav
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Jan 3 2005 23:16
Isn't veganism great, and why can't we all get along?

Why arent all vegans 'pro-life', it seems to be a logical extension of being vegan for moral reasons. Infact i know one vegan who is/was against abortion, when he explained his reasoning, it made sense within his moral viewpoint (ie a lot of animals are more intelligent than a foetus).

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Jan 3 2005 23:57

well if they are vegan for wanky reasons, they probably are anti-abortion, and i expect they compare the meat industry to the holocaust too. those of us who are vegan for perfectly sane reasons aren't because abortion is not the systematic exploitation of another animal, and is hardly comparable. if there was an entire abortion industry, of purposefully impregnating women, aborting the foetus and then selling it as a delicious delicacy or a festive hat for halloween, then obviously i'd be opposed to it far more than i am to the meat/dairy industry.

can't you please make a distinction about which subsection of people with a particular dietary choice you're on about, it's not like vegans choose for misanthropic nutcases to be associated with our diet anymore than anarchists choose people like username to be associated with our politics...

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Jan 4 2005 00:00

oi, no sensible replies, or i'll edit your posts to make you look silly.

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Jan 4 2005 00:33

sorry, was that not the right spirit? ok, the reason vegans aren't anti-abortion, is purely to piss off people who don't like vegans so that they can't denounce us as sexist fucks as well as misanthropists and animal fuckers. it's also because we want animal testing to be replaced by testing on human foetuses, because as we obviously like other animals more than humans this doesn't revolt us as much as sticking ears on rats. is that better?

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Jan 4 2005 02:10
GenerationTerrorist wrote:
well if they are vegan for wanky reasons, they probably are anti-abortion, and i expect they compare the meat industry to the holocaust too. those of us who are vegan for perfectly sane reasons aren't because abortion is not the systematic exploitation of another animal, and is hardly comparable. if there was an entire abortion industry, of purposefully impregnating women, aborting the foetus and then selling it as a delicious delicacy or a festive hat for halloween, then obviously i'd be opposed to it far more than i am to the meat/dairy industry.

can't you please make a distinction about which subsection of people with a particular dietary choice you're on about, it's not like vegans choose for misanthropic nutcases to be associated with our diet anymore than anarchists choose people like username to be associated with our politics...

GenTer, i just looked at your post, and imagine my suprise when i found a subliminal message containted in it, was this intended, or did it happen subconciously?

Thora
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Jan 4 2005 03:04
gav wrote:
Why arent all vegans 'pro-life', it seems to be a logical extension of being vegan for moral reasons. Infact i know one vegan who is/was against abortion, when he explained his reasoning, it made sense within his moral viewpoint (ie a lot of animals are more intelligent than a foetus).

roll eyes This is a really stupid question.

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Steven.
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Jan 4 2005 03:16
Thora wrote:
roll eyes This is a really stupid question.

Is it really?

It does make sense - if you think all animal life is equal and equal to humans, and shouldn't be killed then surely say a foetus is worth at least as much as a prawn?

Wayne
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Jan 4 2005 11:49
Quote:
Thora wrote:
Quote:
This is a really stupid question.

Is it really?

Aye, really. Seriously why does everyone turn into fucktards as soon as the word vegan is mentioned? Comparing not wanting to eat chicken periods to restricting women's control over their bodies is really stupid unless you think abortion rights is that irrelevant an issue that it has no more impact on people's lives than buying fucking soya spread roll eyes So is comparing prawns and humans, not to mention prawns and foetuses.

Basically what GT said. I hope none of you (except maybe a few people from Armagh) need me to explain the difference between forcing a person to go through a pregnancy against their wishes and not going fishing.

Everybody emphasises with animals. Even Jack. If you ever see somebody mistreating a dog in public, not killing it or anything, just dragging it about by its ear and hitting it a bit, then watch people's reactions. Is it as bad as doing the same thing to your wife? Obviously not. But nevertheless, none of us really want to see puppies beaten up. Except gangster who has been looking for an outlet since the toffs banned badger baiting.

Since I like furry animals and think they're cute, I'm not going to eat the wee fuckers. And to be consistent I'm not going to eat the ugly ones either. Nor am I going to eat eggs from battery chickens, and I'm certainly not going to eat free range eggs 'cos then I'd be a middle class wanker. And I never liked prawns. A Brucey bonus here is that in turning towards a plant based diet we economise on land use and reduce the amount of labour involved in food production. Perhaps if we save on labour time enough you lumpen carnivore fucks will actually manage to pick up a pot and learn to fucking cook instead of eating the shite yous normally do. Also, veganism is a pure fanny magnet because it makes girls think you're quite sensitive and caring.

Sorry if that's more serious than you wanted Gav, but what did you expect? Abortion's not one of those laugh a minute subjects. Em, not like the troubles or something. I mean were you hoping for, 'I'm against abortion... Unless it's served with harissa'? 'Take my unwanted foetus, go on, take it'?

Discussing animal rights is so fucking boring. 'What do you eat mate? Lentils? Ha ha. Here, this is what you want [dangles overcooked, characterless, unrecognisable animal matter on end of fork] nice bit of meat, eh? Aren't tits great, I like tits innit, eh?' etc.

Anyway, we all know why John's arguing with Thora wink

Wow, I am the new JDMF and I got the pecs to prove it smile

Wayne
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Jan 4 2005 12:01

No Jack, I like animals but I'm thinking of joining the WSM, if you know what I mean.

lucy82
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Jan 4 2005 12:11
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a lot of animals are more intelligent than a foetus

if intelligence has anything to do with it, will it be ok for me to eat thick people?

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 4 2005 12:18

I think Jack might be gay. Eww.

WeTheYouth
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Jan 4 2005 12:56
lucy82 wrote:
Quote:
a lot of animals are more intelligent than a foetus

if intelligence has anything to do with it, will it be ok for me to eat thick people?

Yes why not, a few barbecue fascists and a few bacon rolls would tase just wonderful. wink

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 4 2005 13:20

Yeah but Revol maybe vegans are vegans cos they can't stand the idea of eating a chicken period. It may just be a personal choice as opposed to explicit revolutionary activity. You can't analyse every action of every "anarchist" in terms of revolutionary potential.

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Jan 4 2005 13:23
revol68 wrote:
But surely u are also opposed to the brutal conditions used in the manufacturing of many consumer goods yet u still buy them, cos its not the product itself that is wrong but wage labour as a whole and to boycott them is to engage in shite liberal consumer power politics not to mention a tipping of ur cap to the repression of desire. Whys it different for animal produce? Obviously there are differences between animals in that they can't liberate themsleves but I see this as having little bearing on the argument.

I was saying this to pingtiao the other night and he nearly cried.

kalabine
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Jan 4 2005 13:30

surely if you are against causing harm to another living being you should be against abortion? confused

or is it just that the AR people hate humans? confused

kalabine
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Jan 4 2005 13:37
revol68 wrote:
are u saying ur against abortion cos the foetus is a life? or are u merely stating that abortion isn't exactly an ideal situation?

are u against a woman's right to abortion??

if ur opposed then ur truly a fucktard

i'm not against abortion, no - i'm not into AR either

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 4 2005 13:39
revol68 wrote:
well thanks for that alan its not like i had considered that roll eyes

which is exactly why i asked waybe if he would eat a prawn or mussel if he enjoyed the taste and had a desire to do so.

anyway alan fuck off and listen to thrice or read no logo again until u realise it is superficial shite. grin

Fuck off and listen to Texas is the Reason you stupid freak. Girls don't find it sexy to be a self-obsessed, self-loathing idiot with NHS glasses.

grin

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Jan 4 2005 14:15
John. wrote:
revol68 wrote:
But surely u are also opposed to the brutal conditions used in the manufacturing of many consumer goods yet u still buy them, cos its not the product itself that is wrong but wage labour as a whole and to boycott them is to engage in shite liberal consumer power politics not to mention a tipping of ur cap to the repression of desire. Whys it different for animal produce? Obviously there are differences between animals in that they can't liberate themsleves but I see this as having little bearing on the argument.

I was saying this to pingtiao the other night and he nearly cried.

Haha ha.

ha.

Nearly cried indeed.

The logic of revol's post is "Not raping doesn't stop rape ocurring, so therefore why not rape". Of course, i'm not comparing eating meat to rape, just playing with the logic to show it is stupid (but what i'd expect for someone from Belfast- incidentally, I was there last week and laughed at the bank robbery till i shat myself).

The problem seems to be that you are trying to force what is a dietary choice- for some based purely on health grounds, and for others based on personal ethical considerations- into a political straightjacket in which it doesn't belong. We criticise "ethical consumerism" as praxis- it is totally ineffective as a tactic for bringing about either revolutionary change or the destruction of sweatshop production. People aren't morally opposed to jumpers, they just don't like 7 year old girls making them.

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 4 2005 14:15

Revol is the 68 in your name a hangover from when you wanked over Debord and Cohn-Bendit??

Thora
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Jan 4 2005 14:50

I don't object to killing animals for food. I do object to the way animals are treated within industrialised agriculture. So to summarise:

Quote:
well if they are vegan for wanky reasons, they probably are anti-abortion, and i expect they compare the meat industry to the holocaust too. those of us who are vegan for perfectly sane reasons aren't because abortion is not the systematic exploitation of another animal, and is hardly comparable. if there was an entire abortion industry, of purposefully impregnating women, aborting the foetus and then selling it as a delicious delicacy or a festive hat for halloween, then obviously i'd be opposed to it far more than i am to the meat/dairy industry.

It was a stupid question.

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Jan 4 2005 15:02

good point, i'll change the topic title

Wayne
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Jan 4 2005 15:25

Look Thora! Look Thora! I'm vegan and they're all bullying me. You like me more now smile Please neutral

Revol have you been on stupid pills or something? That argument about boycotts is fuckin pish! Seriously, that is badly thought out! I especially like the way you kind of answer the point for yourself-

Quote:
cos its not the product itself that is wrong but wage labour as a whole

1. I don't really like the animal industry.

2. I really like shoes.

3. Revol boycotts kiddy fiddling, what a liberal roll eyes

Quote:
I was saying this to pingtiao the other night and he nearly cried.

Aye, if he cried then it was probably 'cos you'd just advanced one of the most painfully fucktarded arguments since Gangster's 'it might snowball' interpretation of Negri.

Quote:
has to be said wayne turns very defensive about the whole animal rights shite.

Aye 'cos I never stop banging that drum roll eyes choccy, is Revol this big a prick every dinner time? I think you mistake defensive for bored. I've never attempted to start a serious debate about what people eat 'cos I don't care and it bores the fuck out of me. So it's annoying that people are so obsessed with my preference for boiled rice. Only the other night I had to discuss my veganism with a girl and I had to be polite 'cos she is so fucking cool smile And the fucking lassies in the chippy have started calling me 'bean boy' angry And you sad sacs are arguing about AR all the time. I've never posted about AR & TBH it was more the abortion reference that provoked me to reply. People don't just have abortions for the craic, it's 'cos having a child is an enormous thing. Some people say they're pro-abortion as if every woman should have one. It's shit and it's important, and comparing the ethical considerations involved to having a tuna sandwich is crap.

So, with the utmost reluctance...

1. Torturing monkeys and killing them in horrible ways for fun is bad.

2. Using anti-bacterial hand wash isn't bad.

3. It would be a very confused exercise to try and draw a line somewhere within this spectrum.

4. I don't care that much.

5. Synthesising 1,2,3 & 4 has led me to tend towards veganism though not strictly at all.

6. I don't care what you ate last night so you don't need to tell me.

Regarding prawns, well I wouldn't eat them because I'd get a bit sentimental about the wee critters and the idea doesn't really appeal, even if they were served with sweet and sour sauce. I also wouldn't rip the stuffing out of my teddy bears (yes I've got teddy bears embarrassed ). Neither preference makes me against abortion roll eyes

So I'm not going to present a rational argument that prawns (or insects or knob cheese) should not be eaten. But I prefer not to, that alright? Fuck.

I think your excitement over this has been caused by the uncomfortable relationship between decisions that are sentimental/ questions of taste being linked to other decisions I would (if really pushed) defend ethically. Another example then, I wouldn't pay for sex, and not just because I don't have to wink I'm all for campaigns for sex workers' rights and self-organisation and I'm not a patronising fuck who denies that in certain cirumstances sex work may be a person's best option. And clearly in some instances a person may want to sell sex and they would much sooner do it with a handsome young buck like me than revol who would probably ask 'would you swallow if it tasted alright' and then try to build a political analysis out of her answer before Gav told her she was against abortion. But if revol said would you have sex with the prostitute if she really needed the money, I gave it to you and you really fancied her? Then I would still say no, because I don't really want to have sex like that and that's not something that I'd want to argue politically even though it's linked to concerns I could.

And Revol, dinnae tell me vegan food is crap. You come from larne where you're considered a poncy bastard if you put salt on your spuds.

Quote:
Revol is the 68 in your name a hangover from when you wanked over Debord and Cohn-Bendit??

No, it's a mistype. He was going for 69.

Quote:
he also went all funny and started behaving like he had been defeated at pool

I got shouted at by some lassie in a pub for hogging a pool table for 24 games. She said 'I'm not saying you're not brilliant, definitely brilliant, but maybe there's a time and a place to be brilliant and it wasn't tonight when other people wanted to play' grin

Then I was all like, uh... if you think everyone should get to play then what about aborted foetuses they'll never get to play. You must be against abortion.

Oh, and I don't care.

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Jan 4 2005 15:33

well i can't speak for all other vegans obviously, but i'm personally opposed to the exploitation of other animals for things not essential to our survival, because humans are much more highly evolved than others and are able to make the choice not to use other animals, as well as the various psychological effects i think it has on human society as a whole. even if the meat/dairy industry was a lovely place where the animals lived their lives in peace and harmony and other hippy bollocks, i would still be opposed to it.

on the other hand, as someone else said, i'm not actually opposed to jumpers or trainers, so not wearing those produced in ways i object to achieves nothing. being vegan on the other hand turns me into a living illustration that it is possible to live without exploiting other animals unnecessarily, and still eat lasagna and sushi. and abortion is not the exploitation of women or the foetus, it's an entirely different issue. i'm not opposed to the indigenous people of the arctic killing seals because they've not got much choice, and i'm not against shooting an endangered tiger if it's directly threatening a human being, if someone was then it would be logical to ask this silly abortion question.

anyway, we seem to have gone far more serious than gav originally intended, so now i expect him to find the passage from mein kampf hidden in this post.

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Jan 4 2005 15:47
gav wrote:
GenerationTerrorist wrote:
well if they are vegan for wanky reasons, they probably are anti-abortion, and i expect they compare the meat industry to the holocaust too. those of us who are vegan for perfectly sane reasons aren't because abortion is not the systematic exploitation of another animal, and is hardly comparable.

GenTer, i just looked at your post, and imagine my suprise when i found a subliminal message containted in it, was this intended, or did it happen subconciously?

So gav am I right in thinking you've edited GT's post to include a secret message stating "I am nonce"?

roll eyes

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Jan 4 2005 15:59

like roy walker off catchphrase, i just "say what you see"

Deezer
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Jan 4 2005 16:05

Life, sliding scales, prawns and foetuses - come on revol68 (and the rest). This is nonsense, surely its not about different values placed on the lives of different organisms, and its fuck all to do with whether mussels are more advanced than the collection of cells that make up a foetus.

Surely this is about the capability to live independently of the mothers body and about rational human beings deciding whether or not they want to remain pregnant.

Otherwise you're equating abortions with murder (but then arguing against veganism to say its justifiable murder - like its justifiable to kill and eat an animal), look I know you're a failed vegan and a lapsed catholic but this is mad shit. No-one has advocated eating abortions.

The two aren't related unless some nutcase who HAPPENS to be a vegan is also some sort of pro-life fundamentalist or is some sort of twat looking to have an argument with people over their dietary choice and accusing them of being inconsistent 'cos they don't oppose foetus murder (which like i've said means the person making that argument would have to consider abortion as murder/killing a living being).

I'm not a vegan, and though I've met one or two who are nuts and claim to believe in forcing a vegan diet on everyone most of them aren't like that. Certainly no-one here is suggesting that we are all forced to adopt a vegan diet and that it would make us more revolutionary. So your desire to eat mussels (yuk) or prawns (yum, yum) nor Waynes desire not to eat them are being interferred with.

While a woman's right to choose, and its denial, impacts predominantly on working class women (the rich can always better afford to go where its legal and hygienically available) whether we eat bacon butties, lamb stew, salmon, prawns, mussels, spuds or vegan stir fry isn't.

Having been a vegetarian and a vegan for short periods of time you should know that.

Cheers

circle A red n black star

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 4 2005 16:21

Wayne I think I'm in love with you.

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Jan 4 2005 16:22
Wayne wrote:
Aye 'cos I never stop banging that drum roll eyes choccy, is Revol this big a prick every dinner time?

yes of course he is, he's a complete ballroot. I'll hit him a slap tonight cos for you... maybe stick some Rollins on after cos he knows that's good shit.

Quote:
'would you swallow if it tasted alright'

apparently eating kiwi fruit makes it taste better

Quote:
And Revol, dinnae tell me vegan food is crap. You come from larne where you're considered a poncy bastard if you put salt on your spuds.

He knows fuck all about food, never cooked a day in his life. His magic ingredient in every food is chilli:

ME - Hey Revol you want to try some of my veggie pasta shit?

REVOL - aye hmm tastes ok... needs a bit of chilli though

REVOL - hmm these cornflakes are ok... they could use a bit of chili though. chilli is amazing it's dead exotic and means you are a really good cook if you use it in your food and all the hot wee girls love chili. it's dead mysterious and fancy hmmm chili.

It's probably related to his orientalism.

Caiman del Barrio
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Jan 4 2005 16:24
xConorx wrote:
maybe stick some Rollins on after cos he knows that's good shit.

Ah now we're talking. RB or the Flag??

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Jan 4 2005 16:27
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
Fuck off and listen to Texas is the Reason you stupid freak. Girls don't find it sexy to be a self-obsessed, self-loathing idiot with NHS glasses.

it might be alright if they actually were NHS glasses, sad truth is I think he actually spent money on them, ballroot.

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Jan 4 2005 16:28

gav had no need to edit my post, the hidden message was already there. although i don't know why he's shouting about it, a closer analysis of his own original post unearthed the following revelation about his personal diet:

Quote:
Why arent all vegans 'pro-life', it seems to be a logical extension of being vegan for moral reasons. Infact i know one vegan who is/was against abortion, when he explained his reasoning, it made sense within his moral viewpoint (ie a lot of animals are more intelligent than a foetus).