Brum's only BNP councillor ousted!
Submitted by Vaneigemappreci... on Jul 28 2006 15:19
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5218434.stm
well it will save her making a mockery out of herself
Aug 15 2006 09:11
#2
By the courts though. They picked up their first welsh councillor in the same period though. Some internal BNP controversy as ebanks father is black.
Aug 16 2006 15:23
#3
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Some internal BNP controversy as ebanks father is black.
just a little! LOL!
Aug 22 2006 22:11
#4
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Judges announced that Labour candidate Catherine Grundy would replace her as councillor for Kingstanding ward.
This will make it easier for them to continue their campaign to sell off Brum's council housing, one of many issues on which the BNP are to the left of Labour.
Just a thought like 
I've been completely put off 'anti-fascism' by the way in which our local labour party behaves, attacking the BNP instead of them seems like a joke when you look at all the ways they are attacking us. It's especially sickening when they themselves prominently support anti-fascist campaigns.
Aug 23 2006 05:57
#5
yeah magnifico, on this point we have to hand it to the left commies. BNP members fantasise about blowing up a mosque, Labour bomb a whole muslim country back to the stone age. No doubt fascism is worse than liberal democracy, but the minute we accept that as the choice, we have already lost and whatever we end up with is beyond our control.
Aug 23 2006 16:42
#6
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I've been completely put off 'anti-fascism' by the way in which our local labour party behaves, attacking the BNP instead of them seems like a joke when you look at all the ways they are attacking us. It's especially sickening when they themselves prominently support anti-fascist campaigns.
thats why for anti-fascism to be trully efective it has to be along the lines of the class struggle and have at its heart a critique of capitalism.
Aug 24 2006 00:32
#7
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
Quote:
I've been completely put off 'anti-fascism' by the way in which our local labour party behaves, attacking the BNP instead of them seems like a joke when you look at all the ways they are attacking us. It's especially sickening when they themselves prominently support anti-fascist campaigns.thats why for anti-fascism to be trully efective it has to be along the lines of the class struggle and have at its heart a critique of capitalism.
Ah yes, that trusty old lefty fall back position - if you can't beat 'em, critique 'em!
I'm hardly his biggest fan, but to paraphrase Karl - "The anarchists have tried to critique the world, the point is to change it."
Aug 24 2006 05:53
#8
any antifascist activity involves a critique - its just the UAF/SWP critique is something along the patronising lines of 'don't be fooled by these NAZIS proletarian comrade, hold your nose and vote labour', thus perpetuating the very situation in which fascism arises. i don't think anyone's suggesting we develop a critique divorced from praxis.
Aug 24 2006 13:40
#9
Heh, I may have been drinking last night. Hence the sarcasm. 
But still, the tendency I've found amongst anarchists is to respond to any questioning of the usefulness of a particular activity by tacking on a critique of capitalism to it, as if that automatically makes it worthwhile. Personally, I don't see the BNP as being relevant one way or the other to our opposition to capitalism - they're a sideshow at best.
I'm with magnifico on this one - I'm seeing less and less point in anti-fascism. I can't see how it will help create the kind of independent working class politics that we want to see develop - we need to do something positive. We need to be fighting for something - whether its at work or in our communities - thats going to be the basis of class consciousness and for the overcoming of the racial/ethnic divisions within the working class, not opposing a few irrelevant wannabe fascists who happen to have a couple of councillors.
Thats the exact same thing I would advocate regardless of whether the BNP were there or not - we need to aim at the capitalist system, at our bosses, at labour and the tories.
Besides, as long as the BNP are choosing to compete in electoral politics then its really not our concern because its bourgeois territory - so let labour, lib dem, UAF, etc oppose them. All we would be doing is advocating not voting anyway, which is what most people do without us saying owt. Besides, the IWCA and various other lefty parties have got councillors elected, and we know full well that one or two councillors achieve nothing, get outvoted and in the case of the BNP probably don't bother turning up anyway. So why is it made into such big deal?
Aug 24 2006 15:03
#10
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I'm seeing less and less point in anti-fascism. I can't see how it will help create the kind of independent working class politics that we want to see develop - we need to do something positive. We need to be fighting for something - whether its at work or in our communities - thats going to be the basis of class consciousness and for the overcoming of the racial/ethnic divisions within the working class, not opposing a few irrelevant wannabe fascists who happen to have a couple of councillors.Thats the exact same thing I would advocate regardless of whether the BNP were there or not - we need to aim at the capitalist system, at our bosses, at labour and the tories.
And wouldnt you say that the BNP and more importantly the increasing popularity of the idea that all our problems are to be blamed on "immigrants taking our jobs" and a lack of discipline in society is a barrier to developing what youd describe as class consciousness?
Sure we should fight capitalism and i'd suggest one of the ways we fight capitalism is to dispel the myths that maintain the existing class structure of society-one such myth being that people of different races and nationalities have nothing in common and that we should have more respect for those who rule over us who are of the same colour than someone who is working class but happens to be of different nationality.
I dont see anti-fascism as being seperate to the class struggle and if you look at history fascism has never developed independently of the class struggle. Jean Barrot was speaking crap when he suggested that being anti-fascist inherently means being pro capitalist/pro bourgeois. The best way to oppose fascists and their ideas is, like you say, to foment class struggle in our workplaces and communities and i dont know anyone who says something along the lines of "bugger that class struggle malarky lets go kick that meat head into the gutter". Dont you consider keeping racists out of our communities and tackling prejudice and arbitary divisions at work as being part of the class struggle?
Also to consider a party that so much support amongst the working class as the BNP have to be irrelevant i would suggest is a little dangerous.
Aug 24 2006 15:05
#11
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Besides, as long as the BNP are choosing to compete in electoral politics then its really not our concern because its bourgeois territory
i can think of one of two prominent men in history who competed in electoral politics, came to power through electoral politics and did some considerable damage to a lot of people.
Aug 24 2006 16:54
#12
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
And wouldnt you say that the BNP and more importantly the increasing popularity of the idea that all our problems are to be blamed on "immigrants taking our jobs" and a lack of discipline in society is a barrier to developing what youd describe as class consciousness?Sure we should fight capitalism and i'd suggest one of the ways we fight capitalism is to dispel the myths that maintain the existing class structure of society-one such myth being that people of different races and nationalities have nothing in common and that we should have more respect for those who rule over us who are of the same colour than someone who is working class but happens to be of different nationality.
I dont see anti-fascism as being seperate to the class struggle and if you look at history fascism has never developed independently of the class struggle. Jean Barrot was speaking crap when he suggested that being anti-fascist inherently means being pro capitalist/pro bourgeois. The best way to oppose fascists and their ideas is, like you say, to foment class struggle in our workplaces and communities and i dont know anyone who says something along the lines of "bugger that class struggle malarky lets go kick that meat head into the gutter". Dont you consider keeping racists out of our communities and tackling prejudice and arbitary divisions at work as being part of the class struggle?
Also to consider a party that so much support amongst the working class as the BNP have to be irrelevant i would suggest is a little dangerous.
I dunno who this Barrot guy is, and thisisn't some ultra-leftist anti-fascism=pro-capitalism crap either, its just that I'm increasingly questioning the value of anti-fascism in a practical sense.
Maybe irrelevant is too strong a word, but I just don't see that the BNP are attacking working class interests in any way at the moment. Whereas labour, tory and liberal democrats are because they're the ones in power. And since the BNP are now going for elections the only way to oppose that chosen tactic is either to start competing in elections ourselves, or to start trying to persuade people not to vote for them. And without some sort of positive alternative to put forward then anti-voting campaigns seem like a bit of a waste of time.
And as long as the BNP aren't attacking the working class then I can't see how anyone beyond the usual politicos are going to be interested in anti-fascism one way or the other - in which case I see little point in it. Sure, I'd prefer them not be gaining in votes, but theres only so much time, effort and resources that we have available. No one actually says "bugger the class struggle", but the more effort we put into anti-fascism the less time and effort there will be for other things - and I think there are far more worthwhile things to invest that effort in than anti-fascism.
As far as the very real racial divides within the working class, again I don't see that anti-fascism actually tackles this. Like in the thread about immigration - the best way to go about it would be for local communities to be struggling against the underfunding of working class estates, the running down of services, etc. I don't buy into ideas that people are really taken in by "myths" - most people just aren't inclined to spend the time looking too deeply into something. If they get some busy-body lefty telling them that its not the immigrants fault then I think most people will just respond with "yeah, whatever" and not bother thinking about it, coz quite frankly we bore most people, but if they're struggling for their own interests then they will actually have an interest in looking into this stuff - and then its pretty clear why working class estates are so run down nowadays.
And do you really think that people have much respect for those who rule over us? I dunno who you're talking to but all I hear is a mixture of apathy and contempt.
Anti-fascism with a better critique than the UAF sounds alright in the abstract, but I've yet to hear it, or see it in practice.
The best argument I've heard is that we should stop them while they're small. Thats all well and good (though I can't see them as having a realistic chance of coming to power anytime soon) - and I think the way to do that is by working on issues that actually matter to the working class - of which fascism is pretty low on the list - so as to build up a self-confident working class.
After all, has the BNP's recent growth been the result of 'anti-socialism'? Or has it been because they decided to ignore the left and focus on other issues - on actual problems facing working class communities and trying to set down some roots within them? We really could do with taking a page or two out of their book - and yes, it really does gall me to say that.
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
i can think of one of two prominent men in history who competed in electoral politics, came to power through electoral politics and did some considerable damage to a lot of people.
Tony Blair springs to mind, Thatcher too. And the policies of both of them aren't a million miles away from being fascist (crushing of the irganized working class, protection of big business interests while professing to be in favour of petit bourgeois small scale capitalism, imperialist wars, etc). No doubt Cameron/Brown would do considerable damage as well. And they're far more likely to come to power than Griffin - so why focus on the small fish when there are sharks out there?
Aug 24 2006 18:50
#13
venegeimappreciationclub wrote:
Sure we should fight capitalism and i'd suggest one of the ways we fight capitalism is to dispel the myths that maintain the existing class structure of society-one such myth being that people of different races and nationalities have nothing in common and that we should have more respect for those who rule over us who are of the same colour than someone who is working class but happens to be of different nationality.
I agree with this and clearly so does dave - this is basic class struggle stuff. But for me anti-fascism implies opposing the far right groups specifically, trying to do things which oppose the BNP, NF etc, not just racism in general. But these groups are not the main enemy of the working class, all the attacks on the w/c are coming from the labour party, employers, landlords etc and very few from people we would term 'fascists'. If the BNP were elected in my town, or if the NF suddenly became very strong and started beating up minorities, breaking up pickets or whatever then of course I would oppose them just as I would any other capitalist who was doing these things, but I don't see why I should spend my time and energy opposing them at the moment.
Aug 24 2006 23:53
#14
venegeimappreciationclub wrote:
Jean Barrot was speaking crap when he suggested that being anti-fascist inherently means being pro capitalist/pro bourgeois.
I would suggest that you reread what he wrote as you seemed to have understood none of it. Bordiga said that "The worst product of Fascism is anti-fascism". What did he mean by this? He certainly didn't mean that the working class doesn't at times have to physically struggle against fascists because at the time the Italian CP was involved in defending their meetings from fascists with guns. What he meant was that 'the worst product of fascism is workers joining in a popular front with bourgeois parties agianst fascism'. Not as snappy a slogan I will admit, but can you deny that the ideology of anti-fascism led the working class into the second imperialist war.
davethemagicweasel has it right when he says that
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I just don't see that the BNP are attacking working class interests in any way at the moment. Whereas labour, tory and liberal democrats are because they're the ones in power.
What the communist left argue is that there can be no alliance between the working class, and the bourgoies parties in the name of anti-fascism. The Labour party has enacted more measures against immigrants, and the ethnic minorities than the BNP could even fantasies about. And that is just talking about that subject, and ignoring their other attacks on the working class.
Magnifico wrote:
Magnifico wrote:
I've been completely put off 'anti-fascism' by the way in which our local labour party behaves, attacking the BNP instead of them seems like a joke when you look at all the ways they are attacking us. It's especially sickening when they themselves prominently support anti-fascist campaigns.
Which I think shows the fallacy of communists uniting with the people that are attacking them to oppose 'fascism'.
This is what Barrot argued, and what comrades like Davethe... have realised is true without even having heard of him.
Devrim
Aug 25 2006 15:43
#15
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What he meant was that 'the worst product of fascism is workers joining in a popular front with bourgeois parties agianst fascism'.
and i'll say it until i'm blue in the face, none of the anti-fascists that i know have any interest in joining bourgeois popular fronts!
Aug 25 2006 15:55
#16
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but the more effort we put into anti-fascism the less time and effort there will be for other things - and I think there are far more worthwhile things to invest that effort in than anti-fascism.
but i dont believe that people see anti-fascism as being seperate to the general class struggle, i dont get involved in anti-fascist activities either as a side show nor to the detriment of other aspects of the class struggle. For me going to provide strike support and putting out propaganda denouncing those who'd have us believe that white is superior to black and that our colleagues at work are our enemies and not our bosses are two sides of the same coin.
Anti-fascism with a better critique than the UAF sounds alright in the abstract, but I've yet to hear it, or see it in practice.
The UAF say-vote labour keep the fascists out
we say-fascism is a product of capitalist social relations, they pontificate what they consider to be a radical alternative but really just pit one section of the working class against another in order to fragment and divide the workers, leaving them vulnerable and open to assaults on working conditions, freedoms and their general solidarity.
This is the difference in theory and practice, and yes the best way to fight fascist ideas is to build solidarity and a fighting working class in our communities and at work.
Aug 25 2006 16:01
#17
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
Quote:
What he meant was that 'the worst product of fascism is workers joining in a popular front with bourgeois parties agianst fascism'.and i'll say it until i'm blue in the face, none of the anti-fascists that i know have any interest in joining bourgeois popular fronts!
Yeah Devrim no-one here is arguing for popular fronts. What I think they are arguing for (and what I'm arguing against) is attacking fascists just because they are fascists (eg 'stop them while they're small' type arguments) regardless of whether they are more of a threat to the working class than other capitalist factions. Whilst this can be done without explicitly forming a popular front, I would argue that it has a similar effect as you are basically defending the right flank of the status quo, thus sending out the message that the status quo is worth defending. Celebrating the replacement of a BNP councillor with a labour one is an example of this - if this is such a good thing then why don't we all start canvassing for labour in areas where they are threatened by the far right?
Aug 25 2006 16:06
#18
Vaneigemappreciationclub - check your post for an open quote tag that seems to have messed up the formatting
hehe.
strangely enough, my old manager when i worked for sainsbury's was called Mr. Ebanks. crazy surname. i always thought the E was his initial