No Retreat
Jun 27 2005
Has anyone else read this? just started and its fucking brilliant, the introduction works well as it mentions the role of fascism and how it benefits the ruling classes and bosses because of its divisive and racist nature and then it just goes straight into the banter, although its written like one of the umpteen hooligan books that have come out in the last few years it actually works really well and is pretty inspiring for someone who previously thought that the fash had all the bruisers and headcases on their side.
Jun 27 2005
#2
Quote:
however tilzey and hahn are dodgy as fuck -
they sound like absolute headcases, but in a good way of course and not affraid of confrontation with nazi skinheads which is fairly admirable
Jun 27 2005
#3
hmm, well there is their work with searchlight to worry about, their friendliness with certain cops, and their naming of people in the books who have never been charged with involvements in the actions described in some cases
Jun 27 2005
#4
kalabine wrote:
i like it, it's interesting and some good political points are made, - however tilzey and hahn are dodgy as fuck -paul marsh is probably the best to comment on them
Firstly do you know these guys? Secondly were you there at the time? Or is it a case you've heard stories on political websites put up by anonymous posters slagging them off?!!
From my days knocking about with AFA/Red Action I don't remember Paul Marsh being there at all so another person who's relied on chinese wispers. Not that I aint knocking the bloke because in reality I've never met him and until doing so I wouldn't pass judgement on the man.
I know people from Red Action/AFA who still have a lot of time for Dave and I'm sure if you have any questions for the man I am happy to forward them to him. I know there'll be people on the 2nd July who will vouch for Dave and if Paul comes to the gig he can get the story 1st hand.
Here's an interview I ran with them a few weeks ago.
punkglobe.com/noretreatinterview
I just wish people would stop all this fucking slating. I've been there, done that and it's fucking pointless really. If you can't say something to some ones face straight out then don't say it at all.
Jun 27 2005
#5
Quote:
I know there'll be people on the 2nd July
whats happening on July 2nd?
Jun 27 2005
#6
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
Quote:
I know there'll be people on the 2nd Julywhats happening on July 2nd?
The IWCA Benefit gig at Tufnell Park featuring The Upstarts. See the Fuck G8 Gig thread 
Jun 27 2005
#7
so RA still have time for the one they kicked out for his part in a homophobic mugging then?
(can't remember which one off hand)
Jun 27 2005
#8
kalabine wrote:
so RA still have time for the one they kicked out for his part in a homophobic mugging then?(can't remember which one off hand)
Go back to my main point and click on the link to the interview. The answer is in there. Personally I know first hand what Dave Hann says is true and theer was never any homphobic attack. All lies mate. I heard you're a nonce. Just coz I said it don't mean it true though but throw enough mud and all that........
For the record I wouldn't be interviewing a homophobe for a Pro Gay/Lesbian Freindly site.
I notice you fail to answer any of my questions put to you? Why is this?
Jun 27 2005
#9
pardon my ignorance but who are the IWCA?
On another note, the squads and AFA were set up because the members believed (rightly in my opinion) that you cant fight an organisation that is overtly authoriation and supportative of hierachy and uses fear and intimidation to spread its influence with words alone, presumably class war et al took this further and decided that you cant use propaganda alone to attack the rich and those who profit from our labour etc, what role should actual physical violence play in the fight against capital and government? Obviously its a much more powerful enemy than a few thousand meet heads and has one or two reactionary institutions on its side, but havent you ever felt the impulse to kick seven tonnes of shit out of your local MP or your boss, or even someone elses boss for that matter?
Jun 27 2005
#10
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
pardon my ignorance but who are the IWCA?On another note, the squads and AFA were set up because the members believed (rightly in my opinion) that you cant fight an organisation that is overtly authoriation and supportative of hierachy and uses fear and intimidation to spread its influence with words alone, presumably class war et al took this further and decided that you cant use propaganda alone to attack the rich and those who profit from our labour etc, what role should actual physical violence play in the fight against capital and government? Obviously its a much more powerful enemy than a few thousand meet heads and has one or two reactionary institutions on its side, but havent you ever felt the impulse to kick seven tonnes of shit out of your local MP or your boss, or even someone elses boss for that matter?
The IWCA are the Independent Working Class Association:
Jun 27 2005
#11
fight fascism wrote:
I notice you fail to answer any of my questions put to you? Why is this?
i notice you failed to answer mine, why would RA lie about hahn if they still have lot of respect for him?
Jun 27 2005
#12
kalabine wrote:
fight fascism wrote:
I notice you fail to answer any of my questions put to you? Why is this?
i notice you failed to answer mine, why would RA lie about hahn if they still have lot of respect for him?
Go and read the interview and all the answers what you're seeking are in there.
Just because a few people slagged him off don't mean a whole organisation did. I know he was at Wasted with The Upstarts and people who were there who knew the score. He was going to be in London on the 2nd but it's his brothers wedding so can't make it.
There's also some one coming over from Belfast on the 2nd who knows Dave well.
All your questions answered now answer mine please.
Jun 27 2005
#13
fight fascism wrote:
kalabine wrote:
fight fascism wrote:
I notice you fail to answer any of my questions put to you? Why is this?
i notice you failed to answer mine, why would RA lie about hahn if they still have lot of respect for him?
Go and read the interview and all the answers what you're seeking are in there.
Just because a few people slagged him off don't mean a whole organisation did. I know he was at Wasted with The Upstarts and people who were there who knew the score. He was going to be in London on the 2nd but it's his brothers wedding so can't make it.
There's also some one coming over from Belfast on the 2nd who knows Dave well.
All your questions answered now answer mine please.
Piss off steve. No one trusts you. You know nothing about this stuff either.
How is Kev Watmough nowadays?
Jun 27 2005
#14
butchersapron wrote:
fight fascism wrote:
kalabine wrote:
fight fascism wrote:
I notice you fail to answer any of my questions put to you? Why is this?
i notice you failed to answer mine, why would RA lie about hahn if they still have lot of respect for him?
Go and read the interview and all the answers what you're seeking are in there.
Just because a few people slagged him off don't mean a whole organisation did. I know he was at Wasted with The Upstarts and people who were there who knew the score. He was going to be in London on the 2nd but it's his brothers wedding so can't make it.
There's also some one coming over from Belfast on the 2nd who knows Dave well.
All your questions answered now answer mine please.
Piss off steve. No one trusts you. You know nothing about this stuff either.
How is Kev Watmough nowadays?
Awwww Butchers Apron I presume you wont be coming to say shit to my face on the 2nd? Ah I thought not. Net wankers like you haven't the courage or conviction to stand by your net wars.
As for Kev Watmough ask him yourself. You seem to know more about him then I do. I presume you're still in that Anarchist Punk Forum which I am not. I hardly call arguing the toss with people on the net exactly a crime. I think if it was a crime then Red Action and more would be a far more guilty that I ever was!!
It's what counts in real life you numpty. I've put my name up time and time again to chin people from the Far Right. Not that I go looking for it but if they want it I'm always happy to oblige. And I don't need to join a political organisation to do so. What about you numpty what has your contribution been to fighting fascists?
By the way Butchers I was there at the time - On the the 1st I'm meeting up with two ex Red Action/AFA members at their band rehearsal if you want to pop along to see if I was about at the time.
If you still have a problem and want to do something about it I'm in London all weekend or failing that I can travel wherever you live and you can say what you want to my face rather than causing silly net arguments.
my number is: 07906633701
I'm sure if you ask Paul Marsh nicely or pop along to the Angelic Upstarts website they'll confirm that number is mine.
Apologies to everyone else. This net numpty pops up once in a while.
Jun 27 2005
#15
can someone post something on this thread regarding the Dave Hann rumours/counter runours as work seems to have a block on the links.
werent you saying that 'Wasted' was some sort of pro-fascist gig mate? I know shit about the bloke but surely with a history like his why would ave hann be at a fascist knees up?
Jun 27 2005
#16
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
can someone post something on this thread regarding the Dave Hann rumours/counter runours as work seems to have a block on the links.werent you saying that 'Wasted' was some sort of pro-fascist gig mate? I know shit about the bloke but surely with a history like his why would ave hann be at a fascist knees up?
Nah Wasted is a Non Political organisation. Darren and Jenny who run it are really really nice people but a bit naive at times to think Punks Skins and everyone else can live happily ever after.
Dave was with The Upstarts doing security for them as there had been threats made by the Far Right to do over both The Angelic Upstarts and Oppressed shows. I was going to be there with them doing security but I did the top part of my spine in and was off work for several weeks. Not that the Fash showed though - Never do unless the odds are in their favour.
The man is alright just read the interview I did with the bloke. I hate net bitching. It makes people sound like fucking little children. In life you should judge people on the actions you witness them doing not what you've heard they supposedly done.
Jun 27 2005
#17
I read all the shit on the red action forums about Hann and the alleged homophobic mugging. It sounded like absolute bollocks to me, a standard leftie smear-job, don't believe a word of it.
Hann posted briefly here:
http://libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1054&highlight=
And sure there are almost certainly issues with them (searchlight being a biggie, also the writing out of history of the anarchists), but I think that without all the background and slagging No Retreat is a good book
Review here:
http://www.libcom.org/newswire/stories.php?story=04/03/24/0965735
Jun 28 2005
#18
Hann posted for a little while on this site, but got seen off.
He came out badly, in my opinion, from the story about the gay mugging.
Having now realised who "fight fascism" is (none other than Steve DIY) I have to say that Hann and the loyalist supporting DIY are very strange bedfellows indeed.
Jun 28 2005
#19
having read that thread where hann and someone else bitch at each other over something i have no idea about its clear that some people dont like dave hann, why this is i dont have a fucking clue, maybe somehting to do with cashing in with the book, leaving certain names out of the book, including certain names he shouldnt have and some spurious rumour of a 'homophobic mugging', maybe the problem was the fact the bloke isnt a class struggle anarchist or something 
Jun 28 2005
#20
PaulMarsh wrote:
Hann posted for a little while on this site, but got seen off.He came out badly, in my opinion, from the story about the gay mugging.
Having now realised who "fight fascism" is (none other than Steve DIY) I have to say that Hann and the loyalist supporting DIY are very strange bedfellows indeed.
Paul for the record I have nothing against The Catholic Working Class Community in Ulster and would like nothing more than to see the Working Class united in Ulster. I have voiced support for most things the PUP stand for and I've also voiced support for the IRSP for some of their policies. It would be interesting to see how the little organisations on both sides would fare given the chance. The way things stand at the moment nothing will change there. By the way I am not a Loyalist - I probably despise the monarchy more than you.
As for Dave Hann I have never met the bloke. I know of him through being sent the book and through character references from the likes of Mensi who on the whole is a pretty decent bloke. The interview came about as I felt after reading it and reading some of the reviews that a few wrongs had to be put right. I think the interview clearly does that.
If you actually visited the Upstarts GB you will find that we're pretty grown up about things and have talked a little about Ulster. In the end we agreed to disagree and it's not longer mentioned on the GB. However that can't stop people having a beer together as most things we do agree on. It's all part of being an adult and with that comes the responsibility that we all have our opinions and as long as them opinions aren't used to incite hatred etc etc then what is the problem?
I personally disagree where you stand Paul and saying that I think the Antifa is a waste of space as it's just an Anarchist organisation which makes up of less than .5% of the population. I expect others who will be at the gig especially ex AFA/Red Action members will also disagree where you're taking the Anti Fascist movement. Some already believe you could write your anti fascist credentials on the back of a stamp.
However whatever I may think or other people may think that offer of you to have a stall there is fine by me. You have the right to your opinion and I'd argue with anyone who tried to deny you. As I said in the other thread there will be people of all different persuasions and it should be up to them to decide whether they visit your stall and support it/take away literature etc etc. I leave people to make up their own minds.
If you no longer wish to do the stall there then that's down to you. There will be over 500 people in attendance and you don't even have to talk to me! But don't go on with one of your little political tantrums why you can't do it because no one is stopping you from coming along least not me. And if there's one person who has a gripe with the likes of Class War then that one person should be me but really I'm not that childish.
Also Paul I'm still one of the people still around up for physical confrontation with the fash if the need arises. I think if you pay that Angelic Upstarts Guestbook a visit you will find that. You will also find if you ask a person on that book called 'Admirer' what support I've given her in regards to fascists threatening her. The same support has also been give to the likes of Mensi and Roddy and stated very clearly to the other side. I dig my heals in regards the far Right and refuse to budge - How many more people can truly say that??
Jun 28 2005
#21
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
having read that thread where hann and someone else bitch at each other over something i have no idea about its clear that some people dont like dave hann, why this is i dont have a fucking clue, maybe somehting to do with cashing in with the book, leaving certain names out of the book, including certain names he shouldnt have and some spurious rumour of a 'homophobic mugging', maybe the problem was the fact the bloke isnt a class struggle anarchist or something :wink:
Most of the hatred comes from internet shit stirrers and people who aren't aware of the full picture. The internet is full of tossers like that.
Jun 28 2005
#22
fight fascism wrote:
PaulMarsh wrote:
Hann posted for a little while on this site, but got seen off.He came out badly, in my opinion, from the story about the gay mugging.
Having now realised who "fight fascism" is (none other than Steve DIY) I have to say that Hann and the loyalist supporting DIY are very strange bedfellows indeed.
Some already believe you could write your anti fascist credentials on the back of a stamp.
Really?
Some are obviously tossers then. 
Jun 28 2005
#23
Norwicher wrote:
fight fascism wrote:
PaulMarsh wrote:
Hann posted for a little while on this site, but got seen off.He came out badly, in my opinion, from the story about the gay mugging.
Having now realised who "fight fascism" is (none other than Steve DIY) I have to say that Hann and the loyalist supporting DIY are very strange bedfellows indeed.
Some already believe you could write your anti fascist credentials on the back of a stamp.
Really?
Some are obviously tossers then.
Well you haven't done very much have you? In areas where you're supposed to be the WNP have done paper sales and been cheeky enough to take photos of themselves doing it. That wouldn't have happened in AFA's day now would it?
The gigs still go, the meetings still go on all unopposed - maybe you could explain this?
However I doubt you will - Instead you 'll carry on slagging Dave Hann off for his contribution to fighting fascism.
Typical really.
Instead of bitching about the man from behind the computer come and say it to peoples faces who know Dave Hann. Lets face it if you're man enough to attack a person from behind a computer than be at least man enough to do it in real life.
And don't get me started on internet bitching again
Jun 28 2005
#24
fight fascism wrote:
Norwicher wrote:
fight fascism wrote:
PaulMarsh wrote:
Hann posted for a little while on this site, but got seen off.He came out badly, in my opinion, from the story about the gay mugging.
Having now realised who "fight fascism" is (none other than Steve DIY) I have to say that Hann and the loyalist supporting DIY are very strange bedfellows indeed.
Some already believe you could write your anti fascist credentials on the back of a stamp.
Really?
Some are obviously tossers then.
Well you haven't done very much have you? In areas where you're supposed to be the WNP have done paper sales and been cheeky enough to take photos of themselves doing it. That wouldn't have happened in AFA's day now would it?
The gigs still go, the meetings still go on all unopposed - maybe you could explain this?
However I doubt you will - Instead you 'll carry on slagging Dave Hann off for their contribution to fighting fascism.
Typical really.
Is distribution of information the problem, numbers or organisation? I don't think slagging off dave hanns got anything to do with the former?
Jun 28 2005
#25
fight fascism-where have the WNP been leafletting?
I was hoping that the BNP would show their mugs in brum city centre during the election, but i guess that'd just be suicide on their behalf
Jun 28 2005
#26
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
fight fascism-where have the WNP been leafletting?
They have not been, as they have disbanded into the Nationalist Alliance. From their statement of dissolution:
"It is with some degree of sadness, but also great optimism and hope for the future that I announce tonight's decision to dissolve the White Nationalist Party (WNP), and merge 100% with the Nationalist Alliance. This decision was taken at the National Council meeting held in Sheffield on June 6th. (Today)"
Most of the people in the Nationalist Alliance seem to be the same collection of spooks and oddballs that were in and around the WNP.
They do have a jolly fat bloke on their website though at nationalist.net
Jun 28 2005
#27
What I find most depressing about this thread is people's willingness to believe any old gossip and scandal without seemingly bothering to check both sides of the story. Has anyone other than "Fight Fascism" bothered to approach this Dave hahn and asked him what happened?
If no-one has, then it really is out of order to be repeating gossip without any recourse to facts, or at least offering him the chance to state his side of things. Is this the way that anarchists are supposed to behave? It really is an appalling way to go about things.
I'm new to this forum and to anarchist thought in general, but its depressing to find anarchists behaving in exactly the same manner as the left that I thought I'd left behind me.
Is this what the brave new world we're fighting for is going to look like, people strung up from the lampposts on the merest whisper of wrong-doing? I thought we were supposed to be better than that.
Jun 28 2005
#28
Oh stop being such an old drama queen indestructable.
This issue has been debated to death in the past, on this site, on urban 75 and on the old Red Action Boards.
In addition a simple google search for example brought this statement up:
Jun 28 2005
#29
I've just read that link, and also the link that "fight fascism" posted earlier which seems to answer that accusation quite satisfactorily as far as I'm concerned. I've seen lefty groups do very similar things in the past, and from what little I know of red action it seems to be something they have a reputation for.
Anyway, I'm not going to get drawn into defending dave hahn, as I don't know him from adam. Do you know him? "Fight fascism" seems to imply that you've never met him. In which case what evidence are you basing your accusations on?
The point I was making was a wider one where people on this thread seem to have appointed themselves judge, jury and executioner on the basis of some very dubious gossip from a very dubious source. I've been out of politics for a number of years due to family commitments, and general disillusionment with left-wing politics and the sort of behaviour I've seen repeated here. I had hoped things might have progressed in my absense. Sadly not. It seems if you scratch the surface of an anarchist you'll find an old fashioned lefty lurking not far underneath.
If we are trying to make the world a better place, then it seems to me that an essential place to start is within our own ranks. If we are not fair and just, then how can we expect anyone else to trust us.
As I said earlier, I find the whole thing very depressing.
Jun 28 2005
#30
PaulMarsh wrote:
Oh stop being such an old drama queen indestructable.This issue has been debated to death in the past, on this site, on urban 75 and on the old Red Action Boards.
In addition a simple google search for example brought this statement up:
I hope to god you're never on my jury.
You really do take the internet and internet gossip as gospel don't you?
All the slaggings I've seen about Dave Hann have come from anonymous posters. I wonder why?
Don't take too much to work out does it?
If I've got something to say I'll put my name, contact address and telephone number to it. I aint got no problem with that.
Fuck me no wonder 99.999999% of the population don't take Anarchists seriously. I myself walked away from it back in 1991 when I realised most of these cunts were no marks and no better than the politicians/bosses they were slagging.
How about this for an idea Paul - I'll get Dave to come to down to London for a beer at some point and then you can pop along and say what you have to say to his face?
Let's take the internet rumour brigade out the equation and discuss it like the Class War Warriar you proclaim to be. I'm sure Dave Hann will be more than willing to do this so C'mon on Paul what will your answer be?!!
I wont be holding my breath though. It's good to see that some people refuse to join in the bullying game and have thinking brains for themselves. These are the people who are your future. Don't alienate them.
i like it, it's interesting and some good political points are made, - however tilzey and hahn are dodgy as fuck -
paul marsh is probably the best to comment on them