Immensely stupid article on Red Lake school shootings
May 20 2005
Hello folks, sorry to make my first post here a complaint but I am highly pissed off.
Yesterday I picked up a recent copy of Freedom (9 April 2005) and found this in the 'anti-fascist roundup' section on the back page:
Quote:
School shooter 'Angel of Death' a NaziThe latest school shooting to shock America was the kiling of nine people and himself by Native American Jeff Weise.
Weise was a poster on the Nazi.org website first with the username Todesengel - German for 'Angel of Death' - and later the less Byronesque moniker NativeNazi, and spoke of his 'natural dislike of communism' and hatred of 'youths wanting to be black.'
He will not be missed.
That article's tone is unbelievably crass: luckily nobody from Red Lake is likely to see it. Jeff Weise was a confused, depressed teenager growing up in a community with a sky-high teen suicide rate, the legacy of centuries of colonial racism. Weise's father also committed suicide when his son was still a child.
Despite the almost unimaginable problems it has to deal with, the Red Lake reservation has a strong community spirit, like many Indian communities on reservations and in the cities. Jeff Weise will be missed by his many relatives as they and the other victims' relatives try to put their lives back together.
Some hack rubbing her/his hands with glee over the death of a 'nazi', rather than doing some basic research, does not help that process.
Background info:
May 20 2005
#2
Brighton Bomber wrote:
It does not dissuade from the fact the kiddie was a fuckin nazi/fascist! The only good nazi...
As you say yourself, he was a kid. Have you read the article I posted a link for? If after reading that you still think Jeff Weise deserved to die, perhaps you'd like to write to the Red Lake memorial fund explaining why you won't be sending them a donation:
Red Lake Nation Memorial Fund
P.O. Box 574
Red Lake, Minnesota 56671
Here's a page with more background info about the effects of poverty and racism on Indian communities.
May 20 2005
#3
Yeah that article seems to have a pretty simplistic approach 
May 20 2005
#4
Barnaby wrote:
As you say yourself, he was a kid. Have you read the article I posted a link for? If after reading that you still think Jeff Weise deserved to die, perhaps you'd like to write to the Red Lake memorial fund explaining why you won't be sending them a donation:Here's a page with more background info about the effects of poverty and racism on Indian communities.
First you assume i know nothing about what has happened to native americans, wrong, true i'm not native american, don't know any either, but i've read, i feel, a considerable amount on their struggle.
He is quoted as saying "Under a National Socialist government, things for us would improve vastly," it continued. "That is why I am pro-Nazi. It's hard though, being a Native American National Socialist, people are so misinformed, ignorant and close minded, and it makes your life a living hell."
Sounds like a nazi/fascist to me, so therefore my first statement still applies.
Also the reports a fucking joke.
"But Weise's political beliefs appear rather schizophrenic. On the one hand, he argued for tribal and racial purity – and advocated a Native American separatist movement - on the other, he admired Hitler and the Nazis, ignoring he fact that if the Third Reich had overtaken the United States, American Indians would have been among those in the gas chambers and concentration camps."
Where's the schizo behavior, in that (racial purity)?
As i've already said the incident is tragic.
No i won't be making a donation, but you could make one to me if you like, as i'm skint!
May 20 2005
#5
Hundreds of thousands of other people come from identical backgrounds, in the US and Canada.
They seem to be able to avoid associating with fascists (Weise was reportedly a regular poster on nazi internet chatrooms) or shooting schoolchildren.
They are the people you should be supporting Barnaby, not some nazi nut.
May 20 2005
#6
Brighton Bomber wrote:
Sounds like a nazi/fascist to me, so therefore my first statement still applies.
So anyone who posts messages to a nazi message board, no matter how naive or confused they are, must die? I think the article you describe as
Quote:
a fucking joke
describes well what might lead a depressed kid living on a reservation to do that.
May 20 2005
#7
PaulMarsh wrote:
Hundreds of thousands of other people come from identical backgrounds, in the US and Canada.They seem to be able to avoid associating with fascists (Weise was reportedly a regular poster on nazi internet chatrooms) or shooting schoolchildren.
They are the people you should be supporting Barnaby, not some nazi nut.
He didn't bomb an abortion clinic, or shoot a BIA (federal Bureau of Indian Affairs) agent. He killed his grandfather, who was involved in trying to end the police stand-off during which his father committed suicide. Then he killed people at the school where he'd been bullied badly enough to need treatment for depression, and which he'd apparently previously threatened to bomb (I'm not suggesting any of the school victims had ill-treated him). These were entirely personal, not political, motives the results of which have devastated an already beleagered and desperately poor community. I've been amazed and disgusted by the callous responses in this thread. Truly, if anarchists like you didn't exist, the state would find it necessary to invent you.
May 20 2005
#8
If you ask me, anyone who takes a gun to a load of school kids has clearly got serious problems in their life. Under such circumstances, a political ideology like fascism can seem to have the answers. FFS, the kid was only 16 years old and a lot of people are a bit mixed up at that age. I don't think you can label someone a fascist (and condemn them as such) when they have plenty of time to learn why that ideology is so destructive and misguided and change their ways. A bit of understanding wouldn't hurt...
May 20 2005
#9
Ceannairc wrote:
I don't think you can label someone a fascist (and condemn them as such) when they have plenty of time to learn why that ideology is so destructive and misguided and change their ways.
When's the cutoff point?
May 20 2005
#10
there's never a fixed cutoff point as I'm sure you know. However, I reckon at 16 theres enough room to give the benefit of the doubt plus, as I said, the kid clearly had problems with life in general which he needed to sort out and if he had resolved those issues he might have changed his political view. When I was seventeen, I was thinking extreme capitalist thoughts cos I couldn't believe that anyone else (apart from my family) would go out of their way to do anything to help me. I was a true social reject (even the other social rejects rejected me) so I reasoned that it was up to me to look after #1 and fuck everyone else if they didn't like it. I got older, I met different kinds of people, I learned. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a sob story and I'm not complaining about my life. I'm just saying sometimes you gotta give people a chance to resolve their teenage issues and become rational, balanced individuals like what I am now.
*goes off to beat up the chimp tied up in his garage*
May 20 2005
#11
Brighton Bomber wrote:
Ceannairc wrote:
I don't think you can label someone a fascist (and condemn them as such) when they have plenty of time to learn why that ideology is so destructive and misguided and change their ways.When's the cutoff point?
Where's your cut-off point with people who support national socialist ideas? Do you agree with Jeremy hardy that life would be so much easier if all the BNP's 200,000 voters could be quietly killed?
May 20 2005
#12
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Brighton Bomber wrote:
Ceannairc wrote:
I don't think you can label someone a fascist (and condemn them as such) when they have plenty of time to learn why that ideology is so destructive and misguided and change their ways.When's the cutoff point?
Where's your cut-off point with people who support national socialist ideas? Do you agree with Jeremy hardy that life would be so much easier if all the BNP's 200,000 voters could be quietly killed?
Where are those 200,000 voters, going round, calling themselves "the angel of death", saying "Under a National Socialist government, things for us would improve vastly," "That is why I am pro-Nazi.", promoting a fascist ideology. Shit, some fuckers on here promote, tactical voting. Although that's entirely different argument. Get real!
May 20 2005
#13
Brighton Bomber wrote:
Where are those 200,000 voters, going round, calling themselves "the angel of death", saying "Under a National Socialist government, things for us would improve vastly," "That is why I am pro-Nazi.", promoting a fascist ideology.
Who knows how much of that gets said in private? If people write shit on websites and do 'go around' saying that they support national socialist policies then they should be killed, or are at least better off dead, right? Even children?
May 20 2005
#14
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Brighton Bomber wrote:
Where are those 200,000 voters, going round, calling themselves "the angel of death", saying "Under a National Socialist government, things for us would improve vastly," "That is why I am pro-Nazi.", promoting a fascist ideology.Who knows how much of that gets said in private?
Or something different, did you got my drift then? Why do you think people vote for the bnp or whoever then?
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
If people write shit on websites and do 'go around' saying that they support national socialist policies then they should be killed, or are at least better off dead, right?
Wait til they're sticking you in trucks an off to the camp then? Simple answer, Yes!
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Even children
A 16 year old armed with a gun and with a national socialist ideology, at a school, shooting other "kids". Where do you draw the line?
May 20 2005
#15
Brighton Bomber wrote:
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Brighton Bomber wrote:
Where are those 200,000 voters, going round, calling themselves "the angel of death", saying "Under a National Socialist government, things for us would improve vastly," "That is why I am pro-Nazi.", promoting a fascist ideology.Who knows how much of that gets said in private?
Or something different, did you got my drift then? Why do you think people vote for the bnp or whoever then?
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
If people write shit on websites and do 'go around' saying that they support national socialist policies then they should be killed, or are at least better off dead, right?Wait til they're sticking you in trucks an off to the camp then? As he would have been able to drive legally in the states, and not over here? Simple answer, Yes!
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Even childrenA 16 year old armed with a gun and with a national socialist ideology, at a school, shooting other "kids". Where do you draw the line?
Jun 16 2005
#16
Brighton Bomber wrote:
The only good nazi...
...is a dead nazi, right?
That phrase is modelled on a saying popular among American 'frontiersmen', politicians and soldiers; it's sometimes still heard today:
http://www.dickshovel.com/ind.html
There's even a chapter called 'The Only Good Indian is a Dead Indian' in Dee Brown's book 'Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee', which you will have read, knowing something about Indian struggles. Your use of the more-antifascist-than-thou version of it in this context is painfully ironic.
Besides, calling Jeff Weise a nazi because he posted a handful of times on a nazi message-board *nine months* before he committed his crimes is as logical as blaming Marilyn Manson for the Columbine shootings.
Jun 16 2005
#17
Barnaby wrote:
Brighton Bomber wrote:
The only good nazi......is a dead nazi, right?
Besides, calling Jeff Weise a nazi because he posted a handful of times on a nazi message-board *nine months* before he committed his crimes is as logical as blaming Marilyn Manson for the Columbine shootings.
So by your logic he's not a nazi/national socialist then, even though he claimed to be.
As for your logic with marilyn manson, WTF?
Jun 16 2005
#18
Well first of all, as is said in the paper, the articles are not necessarily representative of the whole collective (I struggle to get why this is such a difficult concept for some people), so blaming Freedom collectively is out of order.
We publish people with a variety of ideological standpoints, and would be happy to publish a rebuttal letter from you if you were bothered to write it rather than just going online and slagging us off on a web board.
Secondly, the awareness that killing is wrong is present from a vastly earlier age than 16, it is unacceptable behaviour whatever the circumstances and should rightly be condemned.
Thirdly, perhaps the feelings of the families of the people dead by his hand should also be considered before exonerating him of responsibility for his actions. I'd say 'a neo-nazi has tragically died after killing several people' would be equally insulting to a great deal more people than what was written.
Jun 16 2005
#19
Saii wrote:
Well first of all, as is said in the paper, the articles are not necessarily representative of the whole collective.
Your writer didn't sign the piece; if editorial decisions are collectively made, responsibility for them is also collective.
Quote:
Secondly, the awareness that killing is wrong is present from a vastly earlier age than 16, it is unacceptable behaviour whatever the circumstances and should rightly be condemned.Thirdly, perhaps the feelings of the families of the people dead by his hand should also be considered before exonerating him of responsibility for his actions.
These points are irrelevant: nobody's suggesting that this kind of violence is ok or that Weise bore no responsibility for what he did. The problem with the piece is the crass portrayal of a suicidal teenage boy as a nazi on next to no evidence, ignoring the social and political context. If your writer had done any research, s/he would have discovered something about the feelings of the majority of the victims' relatives, and the wider Red Lake community, toward Weise:
Quote:
Some already have forgiven Weiss. Others have expressed the wish that had they been more aware, perhaps they would have seen the signs or could have helped him.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3286-2005Mar26.html
Quote:
On the reservation of the Red Lake Band of Chippewa, there has been little talk of anger toward the shooter, Jeff Weise, 16, or revenge -- at least publicly. Unlike Columbine, where many parents were quick to point blame, there is no apparent talk of filing lawsuits against the shooter's family, the police or the school district for failing to prevent the tragedy."That's not our way. We're all one community. It's an Indian thing," said Brenda Child, a historian at the University of Minnesota who grew up on the Red Lake reservation.
One reason there is not the same finger-pointing, say some tribal members and academics who study Native American behavior, is that an Indian tribe's culture is to think about the entire community rather than individuals. "It's different than a suburb of Denver," Child said. "We have a long history together in this particular place. Since it's your own extended family suffering in the aftermath of this, people are feeling a lot of sympathy. . . . It makes our relationships deeper and more complicated."
Perhaps you can begin to see how wrong you were to publish the phrase 'he will not be missed'.
Here are a couple more background pieces on the conditions facing indians at Red lake, made a hundred times worse now they've got this tragedy to deal with while hordes of federal agents and hacks swarm all over the reservation.
http://www.fcnl.org/issues/item.php?item_id=1283&issue_id=111
http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096410657
Saii wrote:
We publish people with a variety of ideological standpoints, and would be happy to publish a rebuttal letter from you if you were bothered to write it rather than just going online and slagging us off on a web board.
That's a good point, and I'm sorry I didn't think of that first. I could write something if you like, but I'd understand if you aren't willing to consider it now.
Jun 16 2005
#20
Please do write a letter. Yes that statement is obviously insensitive and ill thought out.
Jun 16 2005
#21
Brighton Bomber wrote:
So by your logic he's not a nazi/national socialist then, even though he claimed to be.
,,, but stopped doing so, as far as I can tell, months before he committed his crimes. David Koresh claimed to be the biblical King David. Has it occurred to you that this kid might have been deluded and angry but not knowing what to do with his anger? I thnk given the evidence it's much more logical to take that position than to treat him in the same way that, say, the Lumbees of North Carolina treated the Klan in 1958:
http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/ref/nchistory/jan2005/jan05.html
Quote:
As for your logic with marilyn manson, WTF?
Watch Michael Moore's film 'Bowling For Columbine'.
Jun 16 2005
#22
fuck i hate anarchos and their retarded anti fascism!
oh he was a nazi, no he fucking wasn't he was a fucked up kid looking for some sort of meaning in his life, oh sorry i forgot national socialists are really a major threat to our liberty at the moment, i mean it's not like they are generally alienated sociopaths to be more pitied than saw as a a proto 3rd reich.
Fucksake get some fucking perspective you cocks.
p.s. im well prepared to confront fash physically when they attempt to organise, but im not prepared to glout at the fate of a fucked up depressed kid. That goes for alot of the fash in this country as well.
Jun 16 2005
#23
John. wrote:
Please do write a letter. Yes that statement is obviously insensitive and ill thought out.
Are you from the Freedom collective too?
Jun 16 2005
#24
Barnaby wrote:
John. wrote:
Please do write a letter. Yes that statement is obviously insensitive and ill thought out.Are you from the Freedom collective too?
Yeah
Jun 16 2005
#25
Feel free to write in, it'll be the first bit of proper debate to hit the letters page for a while.
On the lack of a name, do you not think that our antifascist roundup writer should be entitled to a bit of anonymity? Given that they are doing the thing most likely to provoke a violent reaction in the whole paper?
Hell none of the articles I write in have my real name attached, does that mean they should all be specifically checked and okayed for ideological content by every individual member (and presumably writer for) the collective before going in? I think you overestimate our resources and free time.
To be honest, I didn't have alot to do with the article so you'd have to ask the individual writer for their view/explanation (not sure who that was but can possibly find out).
Quote:
Some already have forgiven Weiss.
Fair enough.
Edit: debate would probably be the wrong word actually.
Jun 16 2005
#26
revol68 wrote:
p.s. im well prepared to confront fash physically when they attempt to organise, but im not prepared to glout at the fate of a fucked up depressed kid. That goes for alot of the fash in this country as well.
Do you mean that a lot of fash in this country/elswhere, are depressed kids/adults, trying to find a way out of the shit they have to live in. If so i'm in aggreement.
Jun 16 2005
#27
yes, and as such i have no desire to gloat at there social fuck ups. For example that kid who got sent down for the smashing up of the holocaust survivor graves in birmingham was really just a mixed up kid, a cock, but still more a victim if anything else, just went and shat his life downt he toliet like so many other working class kids do through, drugs or crime, only difference is he decided to put some political drabes on his anti social tendencies.
Jun 16 2005
#28
Saii wrote:
On the lack of a name, do you not think that our antifascist roundup writer should be entitled to a bit of anonymity? Given that they are doing the thing most likely to provoke a violent reaction in the whole paper?
Of course; I was talking about responsibility for editorial decisions.
Quote:
Hell none of the articles I write in have my real name attached, does that mean they should all be specifically checked and okayed for ideological content by every individual member (and presumably writer for) the collective before going in?
I'm complaining about crashingly bad journalism, not lack of political correctness.
Jun 16 2005
#29
revol68 wrote:
yes, and as such i have no desire to gloat at there social fuck ups.
You've lost me, where's the gloating?
Jun 16 2005
#30
Quote:
He will not be missed
cept he probably will be by his family and others who aren't cold hearted arseholes.
seriously leave that type of journalism to the fucking SUN.
An extremely tragic incident!
It does not dissuade from the fact the kiddie was a fuckin nazi/fascist! The only good nazi...