"Performance Artist" eats fox in protest against h

So your way of say of sayin that was to say...

ok then!

my point was in relation to the implicit idea in ur other posts that we are separate from other animals or could be, ie leave them alone.

i was merely pointing out that other speices don't leave each other alone and that it would be impossible to do so. Why is humans killling an animal any worse than a dog or lion killing one?

anyway ur changing the argument, the issue was wehter animal liberation was posible or is the best we can do take consideration for animal welfare, u ended up arguing for animal welfare urself.

if they're in a tribe in a forest, then nothing. if they're in modern civilisation, which as a non-primitivist is how i imagine any future society to be closer to, then the difference is that a dog has not developed the technology and ethical system to survive without meat (although apparently according to dave douglass they can), whereas even if lions could cultivate soya bean fields and reached the high intellectual level of being able to feel distress at the death of not only a member of your own species but that of another species, i presume they are similar to cats and therefore would go blind if they go without meat. humans on the others hand have access to a wide variety of foods and nutrients, are perfectly able to survive healthy without consuming anything from another animal beyond accidently eating spiders in our sleep, and are capable of very high levels of thinking.

if anything i said before sounded like i was assuming wat was natural or not, then that's not what i meant, it was short hand for wandering around doing whatever it is they do, in the case of cows, eating grass, farting and then eating more grass, possibly with a break to stare blankly at a passing rambler. for instance near where i live when i'm in the uk, there's a big common that cows roam around on eating grass and pissing off golfers for my amusement, there's just some cattle grids to stop them getting into people's gardens. the way i understand animal liberation is that all animals would be able to do that or the equivalent, only without them being also used for milk and meat. that isn't welfare, because it implies the complete cesation of their use as a resource and lack of any control over them beyond stopping them eating our food. that's not an issue of welfare it's an issue of liberation, as i see it. if they want to oppress each other that's their affair until they learn to speak a human language and the cows ask us for help in overthrowing the oppressive sheep!

Yeah basically what GT said. The bottom line is that humans can survive without meat and some animals can't.

Im not sure what the dictionary difference between liberation and welfare is but personally I would consider animals liberated if humans saw them as an end in themselves rather than as a means to an end (a biological resource for our use).

I disagree. I would rather say that our domesticating of animals is as natural as a nest making a bird or a rat killing a cat

jack, your razor sharp argument leaves me stunned

regarding naturality: you can't have it both ways, both arguing how different humans with their culture are from other animals and then claiming that the current industrial animal abuse is as natural as a bird making a nest. Also i find it funny how people always want to compare themselves to a lion killing a deer, eventhough as humans we would be closer to a rat scacaging around and surviving on many different diets

What is natural anyway in our society - just an empty word used by everyone in any situation. If someone claims that it is natural to oppress non-human animals in factory farms, why would not other forms of oppression be natural as well? I think claiming something is natural and something is not in human society is a minefield...

But then on the other hand, it is only natural for humans to have a diet which is sustainable and would benefit the existance of our species as widely as possible, and for this purpose vegan/vegetarian diet suits very well.

firstly i don't see how we can't have it both ways (oh err missus ) surely its possible to point out how distinct humans are from other animals, in terms of our ability to plan and engage in abstract thought, whilst pointing out that any activity by humans is as natural as anything praticed by any other animal, essetianlly cos if it wasn't natural it couldn't exist, could it?! This is why appeals to a natural primordial narrative are so fucking reactionary, reinforcing the idea that nature is something external from humans or our societies. Surely its possible to point out the huge difference between a mussel and a gorilla without implying the gorilla transcends nature.

no one is arguing that eating meat is natural or unatural what we are suggesting is that humans engage in it and the only way we could claim it is any less moral or right than a cat killing a bird, would be to appeal to humans ability for critical thought, empathy or enlightened self interest(diet, land use etc etc). but ultimately if animal rights are dependent uopmn human rationale then in no way can animals be said to be liberated in a coherent sense, and certainly welfare provides a much more accurate term.

Oh, go eat a fox!

See quote above.

Maybie a more corect word would be to say that the animals are released just lika a prisoner or a slave can be released. We can only talk about welfore as long as there are no enviromental posibilities for animal nationalism. If we stop the domestification of animals and there is not enough food for them in their habitat then we might have to suport them with welfare.

I read some where (i forget where so i cant back this up) that parliment has spent 700hours debating fox hunting and it spent 7hours debating prior to attacking iraq.

dear fucking christ the whole point of the "as natural as a bird making a nest" was to point out the absurdity of denoting any human activity as unnatural and hence the general meaninglessness of using some sort of primordial natural narrative that is usurped by tyrannical humans who upset the natural order of things!

It's because Wendel is Swedish. Swedish 's just fucking rule?

yeah but what ur overlooking is that these things can snowball! hence toffbusters making citizen arrests on fox hunters is a strategic assault in the class struggle and not a pair of gobshites trying to justify another stupid ill thought out political stunt (of more value to a lazy hack looking to fill the 9 page than to the empowerment of the working class) being dragged into a debate that is of little coincidence to the working class and really quite a handy lil diversion.

Look, I've tried it. Believe me, you can't hate the Swedes. I heard their Commies got around 20% of the vote in the last election.

jack its obviosuly because u imagine wendal to be a stereotypical smiling sweet swedish blonde girl with a endearingly sweet innocence towards sexual relationships and hence says things like "do u want to have sex with me now?" like she had just offered u a bowl of cornflakes!

I disagree with domestication of animals too..

but pleased dont use the word natural. Its a silly concept as at least 3 people in this thread have explained (see above).

Ok then i agree with you to some degree. I tought you were trying to make a point of what is "natural"(which works as a red blanket om me also by the way).

I still think that we are not build to be functional predators and we have to prepare meat to even be able to digest it(if you are not a fucked-up fox eating performance artist that is) so is say that there ar more proof that we are shaped for eating vegiterian than the other way around.

I agree with you that there is no such thing as 100% natural when it comes to humans tough.

Jack tries realy hard to hate Wendal...why cant he do it? The propaganda and missguidance of the Capitalists and the Illuminaty has filled his whole body with a thick mud of anger towards the person who are realy the mesiah of the whole universe. Still somewhere deep inside a voice of reason is crying out. Oh yes! it all becomes crystal clear. The fog of false conciousnes is sweeping away from his eyes and he sees the world crystal clear. Tears is pouring down from his eyes. How could he have nown? Every word that Wendal had said was the total ontological truth about reality in its every form. - How could i be so folish, he asks himself time and time again. He falls to his knees, exshousted from the total enlightment, but for the first time in his life he is now realy, realy ready to rise.

It would spoil the mood. Its something strange with using fucking and mesiah in the same sentence.

Your just saying that to all the boys.

jack that sort of reasoning well land u into a lot of trouble someday!