should HSG put this in our mailout?
Oct 30 2005
http://lib4all.redblackandgreen.net/anarkovegan-a4.pdf
right i've finally read this all the way through, as HSG have been asked to put this in our next monthly mailout, which goes out to over 130 people in in Haringey...
i'm tempted to say yes as it's very sensible even i don't agree with all of it, as long as a little disclaimer making it clear we dont all agree with it is added - or just as it is - but put a counter leaflet in the next one...
or just put it in no comment...
Oct 30 2005
#2
Oh, my ex-veggie friend was reading that in the Basement yesterday lunch, when I came back he'd gotten most of the way through and seemed to feel very guilty. I'm taking him to the vegan day thing in the hope of making him feel even worse, although oddly he really really wants to go.
I'm tempted to go vegan, but the food here is catered, so I might leave it a year.
In regards to the leaflet, you may as well put it in if diversity is the norm. Just put a disclaimer somewhere saying something sappy along the lines of all views being respected but not necessarily supported, etc.
Oct 30 2005
#3
Hi
That paw/fist salute graphic on the front is hilarious. I think this is in the top ten worst things done in the name of anarchism. Honestly, animals are evil. They need killing.
Sorry
LR
Oct 30 2005
#4
Ted Heath's Ghost wrote:
I'm tempted to go vegan, but the food here is catered, so I might leave it a year.
have you asked, they might already be catering vegan food in that place or able to provide it easily? Personally i never get problems with this kind of situations, but each caterer is a different story of course.
Oct 30 2005
#5
Lazy Riser wrote:
HiThat paw/fist salute graphic on the front is hilarious. I think this is in the top ten worst things done in the name of anarchism. Honestly, animals are evil. They need killing.
Sorry
LR
i showed that to a friend who is much more sympathetic to AL than me, and he couldnt stop laughing 
if we put a disclaimer in i'll try to get the paw blocked out 
Oct 30 2005
#6
JDMF wrote:
i'm obviously biased, but can i ask: has HSG been asked to put it in by someone else, or people in HSG have asked to put it in? I guess thats an important difference?So my very diplomatic response is: if your mailouts always have material which ranges and is varied and the recipients are used to getting all kinds of refreshing view points and political material from you, then it might not be a problem. If not, then disclaimer sounds like a good way to go to calm you down so you can sleep at nights mate
Anyways, like i said i am biased since i was one of the fuckers who wrote it. Interesting though that it has already reached your neck of the woods mate!
it was someone from outside who has asked if it can go in - anyway i've decided it can go in as is, as far as i am concerned others may disagree yet of course, anyway we put london animal action stuff in sometimes and that is mostly shit
the raised paw though....
*shakes head*
Oct 30 2005
#7
JDMF wrote:
Ted Heath's Ghost wrote:
I'm tempted to go vegan, but the food here is catered, so I might leave it a year.have you asked, they might already be catering vegan food in that place or able to provide it easily? Personally i never get problems with this kind of situations, but each caterer is a different story of course.
i'm sure they would have to, im not sure how much they'd be willing to though. But judging by how bad both taste wise and nutrition wise the vegetarian food is i doubt it would be a good idea - the vegan food would surely be much much worse.
the other thing is, drastically changing my diet is the kind of thing id only want to do when i had complete control over what i eat, which i dont now for a number of reasons, namely i dont cook for myself and i dont have the money to be picky.
as an aside, i finally cooked dinner for myself and a friend at his fancy flat and it was damn good. i haven't cooked for 6 weeks!
Oct 30 2005
#8
p.s. the paw made me giggle too...perhaps a fist holding the vegan flower would have been a better idea...
Oct 30 2005
#9
A mate of mines got that paw/fist image tattooed on her back, oh dear 
Oct 31 2005
#10
Ted Heath's Ghost wrote:
the other thing is, drastically changing my diet is the kind of thing id only want to do when i had complete control over what i eat, which i dont now for a number of reasons, namely i dont cook for myself and i dont have the money to be picky.
Yeah, I think the only thing preventing me from going vegan is that I can't cook to save my life. Oh, and I love cheese. 
Oct 31 2005
#11
tbh i could quite happily be vegan if it wasnt for cheese and fish
Oct 31 2005
#12
what do you have against fish
Can i suggest that as a disclaimer you could include wise words of a famous anarcho-communist thinker and intellectual:
Quote:
Honestly, animals are evil. They need killing.
or his razor sharp observation about non-human animals:
Quote:
they are intellectually subnormal
Oct 31 2005
#13
im sorry but what is the point in a fucking vegan article, is it a huge concern to people in the area, i fucking doubt it, why do people feel the need to start talking about fucking veganism, is there anything to be gained from that article? Does it in anyway add to the self confidence of the working class, it's theoretical development? Does it fuck, it's just unnecessary shite.
Oct 31 2005
#14
remember when you were veggie to try and impress me and Phil, good times!
Oct 31 2005
#15
those were weak times, actually just give it tell i see some footage of a slaugther house and then i'll proclaim myself veggie for another 6 months. It's strange I used to decide to go veggie when i was pissed and break it when sober.
Actually the first person I tried to impress by going veggie was Jill "Hi Guy's, lets do lunch" X factor.
Oct 31 2005
#16
Hahahaha I was telling people about her while watching XFactor the other week. "I met this girl who went on XFactor and murdered a Christina Aguliera song, it was fuckin hilarious she started crying when they told her it was shit".
Relpy to my pm!
Oct 31 2005
#17
revol68 wrote:
im sorry but what is the point in a fucking vegan article, is it a huge concern to people in the area, i fucking doubt it, why do people feel the need to start talking about fucking veganism, is there anything to be gained from that article? Does it in anyway add to the self confidence of the working class, it's theoretical development? Does it fuck, it's just unnecessary shite.
a few people on our list are vegans already, it might make sense to introduce them to the idea of the class struggle...
Nov 1 2005
#18
Not heard about the leaflet!
Result of going to too few meetings- It's terrible- we shouldn't distribute vegan related material at all right now- what with other things that matter going on.
Nov 1 2005
#19
Falseflag wrote:
Not heard about the leaflet!Result of going to too few meetings- It's terrible- we shouldn't distribute vegan related material at all right now- what with other things that matter going on.
why? that's not a good enough reason, there is room in the mailout - and as long as it doesnt cost us anything (other than the cost of the mailout anyway)
if somebody comes along with a leaflet or newsletter or flyer that doesnt contradict the aims and principles, it can go in - unless you have a political argument against it.
anyway london animal action have been putting far worse shit in for ages -how come you havent opposed that?
anyway if you're coming tonight you can say your piece, i may agree with you, if you come up with a good argument 
Nov 1 2005
#20
In responce to leaflet;
On the front page of the pamphlet it says that it’s going to look at veganism from another perspective and aims to show how capitalism and hierarchical statures affect animals and the environment. Imo it does little to do that. It bases much of its argument on animal rights issues and does little to offer much alternative to those working in agricultural and food processing/retail industries. Much of what the pamphlet says could be achieved by buying free range and organic produce.
It doesn’t really deal much with capitalism or explain how a market structure where 1 or 2 large supermarkets that buy a large proportion of produce can control a market in their drive for profit leading to to explotation on both workers and animals alike. Paying less to food processors for produce, inevitably leads to the producer paying paid less and all those employed with in those industries being paid less, so a few can profit. How will veganism stop this kind of worker exploitation?
People who live on this island have historically eaten meat, as it’s a readily available source of protein. The climate here makes it hard to grow plants that are high in protein, that’s why much of the Soya used in animal and human foodstuffs comes from South America. Plant production isn’t free from environmental concern ether, being at the for front of genetic engineering, agricultural hydroponics and the increasing use of poly tunnels to grow vegetables in artificial and controlled environments.
Why does the pamphlet say that meat production increases the use of fossil fuels? Do they mean electricity?
As far as I can see it’s a lifestyle choice more than anything, as I work on dairy farms it would be a choice that would cost me my job…. Though maybe I can get work in the supermarket?
Nov 2 2005
#21
So, i sign up to a HSG mailing list because they were talking about housing, and then shit, slap bang in the middle of my email is some mental shit about animal rights and anarchism with a dogs paw over a big red star on it. Goid i hate the left.
Nov 2 2005
#22
cantdocartwheels wrote:
So, i sign up to a HSG mailing list because they were talking about housing, and then shit, slap bang in the middle of my email is some mental shit about animal rights and anarchism with a dogs paw over a big red star on it. Goid i hate the left.
how many times Kalabine has to say the same fucking thing before hysteric people like you get it:
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
They have had material from London Animal Action in the mailouts before.
Damn some people are just so hysterical about anything remotely to do with animals that reason goes out of window immediately! And then it is usually the same people who accuse animal campaigners of being hysterical 
Nov 2 2005
#23
damo@666 wrote:
On the front page of the pamphlet it says that it’s going to look at veganism from another perspective and aims to show how capitalism and hierarchical statures affect animals and the environment. Imo it does little to do that. It bases much of its argument on animal rights issues and does little to offer much alternative to those working in agricultural and food processing/retail industries.
i agree with what you say - it is a short leaflet after all, an intro, a taster, a view of whats out there, with a dual target of getting understanding of why some people choose to be vegan to anarchists, and to get a taster of anarchist analysis to people who are already vegan or into animal issues (seems to have been working both ways so far).
It could not in that space cover all angles, that is given.
One glaring deliberate omission is more proper animal rights analysis - this leaflet just talked about how animals are used in capital intensive agriculture, it didn't touch the very basics of abusing beings in weaker position.
having said that many other leaflets and articles cover that, but perhaps not in class based or anarchist way, so that has to go in the "to do" list
Quote:
It doesn’t really deal much with capitalism or explain how a market structure where 1 or 2 large supermarkets that buy a large proportion of produce can control a market in their drive for profit leading to to explotation on both workers and animals alike. Paying less to food processors for produce, inevitably leads to the producer paying paid less and all those employed with in those industries being paid less, so a few can profit. How will veganism stop this kind of worker exploitation?
the leaflet clearly says that veganism is not a replacement to class struggle and collective action. veganism is not an answer to every fucking problem or alone not even an answer to many of the problems people who go vegan try to react against.
As a comparison, veganism has a lot of health benefits, but does not cure your syphilis.
Quote:
People who live on this island have historically eaten meat, as it’s a readily available source of protein. The climate here makes it hard to grow plants that are high in protein, that’s why much of the Soya used in animal and human foodstuffs comes from South America.
actually there are soya breeds that grow fine in this climate, but there is no commercial incentive to do so. Soya even grows in southern finland. poland is another big soya producer as well as US.
The reason why so much of the soya comes from South America is capitalist, not practical climate or other environmental reason. It is cheaper, pure and simple. And since this little island can't grow enough feed to keep up the animal product consumption, high quality proteins and calories need to be imported, and soya fits this demand well.
Quote:
Plant production isn’t free from environmental concern ether, being at the for front of genetic engineering, agricultural hydroponics and the increasing use of poly tunnels to grow vegetables in artificial and controlled environments.
very true. And this is a problem in much greater volume because so much of it is fed to animals.
Quote:
Why does the pamphlet say that meat production increases the use of fossil fuels? Do they mean electricity?
bristol uni. did a research about this and they included the whole lifecycle, so food miles (both feed and actual produce), heating and machinery, oil based fertilisers etc.
As a nice concrete quote they said that a person who eats meat uses more fossil fuels just through their diet that a vegetarian could drive 12 miles in a car ever day to make up the difference. A good quote to give to meat eating cyclists
Quote:
As far as I can see it’s a lifestyle choice more than anything, as I work on dairy farms it would be a choice that would cost me my job…. Though maybe I can get work in the supermarket?
yeah, or growing soya beans
Nov 2 2005
#24
anyway it's going in unamended...
a rebuttal may go in at a later date...
Nov 2 2005
#25
oh right because it's had irrelevant shite in it before it can have it again.
what sort of fucking argument is that?
Nov 8 2005
#26
revol68 wrote:
im sorry but what is the point in a fucking vegan article, is it a huge concern to people in the area, i fucking doubt it, why do people feel the need to start talking about fucking veganism, is there anything to be gained from that article? Does it in anyway add to the self confidence of the working class, it's theoretical development? Does it fuck, it's just unnecessary shite.
Good point and how many working class people have this as a priority most working class people I know don't have a choice they don't have the money or time.
Nov 8 2005
#27
Rather than worry about what 'the majority of the working class want', why not accept that including this pamphlet in a mail out is simply an act of libertarian solidarity between groups?
Nov 8 2005
#28
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Rather than worry about what 'the majority of the working class want', why not accept that including this pamphlet in a mail out is simply an act of libertarian solidarity between groups?
i'm not trying to decipher what the working class want, I'm merely asking what is the fucking point in it? If working class people want to be vegan fair fucks, if the Tsar and Rasputin had tucked into Tofu fair fucks, it's got no relationship to libertarian communism.
Nov 8 2005
#29
And I'm saying that you have to accept that people value this stuff. If there's nothing wrong with it, then solidarity says it should go in. That's probably the occam's razor-style reason why kalabine decided the way he did.
Nov 8 2005
#30
It is not my business what you send out, but I thought the point made was a good one so I passed comment.
I would use as my judgement on an issue like this by looking to see what good it could do and what harm it could do, reading this board I get the feeling that a fair few would not want to receive this kind of stuff but I have no idea of the make up of the Group and its mailing list other than the people I met at the book fair.
If I didn’t think it would alienate anyone I guess I’d sent it out like you say to help forge links and show solidarity.
I personally don’t eat meat or fish but that is just because I don’t like the taste, but I can tell you it is a real pain in the arse; just going out for a meal is a real big deal finding out what I can and can’t eat, why someone would chose to not eat these things is beyond me, but it is their choice and I know it isn’t that easy.
i'm obviously biased, but can i ask: has HSG been asked to put it in by someone else, or people in HSG have asked to put it in? I guess thats an important difference?
So my very diplomatic response is: if your mailouts always have material which ranges and is varied and the recipients are used to getting all kinds of refreshing view points and political material from you, then it might not be a problem. If not, then disclaimer sounds like a good way to go to calm you down so you can sleep at nights mate
Anyways, like i said i am biased since i was one of the fuckers who wrote it. Interesting though that it has already reached your neck of the woods mate!