Did the ACF do that? That sounds silly- was it a copy of the Wildcat pmphlet of the same name?
It was a pamphlet which the ACF/Wildcat sold on the huge 1992 "Save the Miners" march in London.
It was a classic example of people being driven mad by their own logic.....
LeonardfromLeominster wrote:
It was a pamphlet which the ACF/Wildcat sold on the huge 1992 "Save the Miners" march in London.
It was a classic example of people being driven mad by their own logic.....
Whilst Class War Federation came up with the oh so timely slogan of "Bring back the hit squads".
I hardly think that, with their livelihoods, communities and families being torn apart by Thatcher and MacGregor, the sloganeering pamphlets of some micro-sects were high up in the miners' priorities. Beware - all that glitters is not gold, and you're in danger of sounding like the infernal Trots.
Whilst Class War Federation came up with the oh so timely slogan of "Bring back the hit squads".
what is wrong with that?
all union branches should establish hit squads 
and that post about ern was shit 3/10 for a poor quality wayne rip off
LeonardfromLeominster wrote:
It was a pamphlet which the ACF/Wildcat sold on the huge 1992 "Save the Miners" march in London.
It was a classic example of people being driven mad by their own logic.....
Whilst Class War Federation came up with the oh so timely slogan of "Bring back the hit squads".
Considering you must have been in short pants at the time Jack, well done on having been briefed so thorougly.
Your ability to condone the most ludicrous anarcho-purist positions, and make yet another dig at the only anarchist group that people in mining communties have even heard off, says a lot about you both as a person and an activist.
Sadly the hit squads were long gone by 1992, and the miners strategy was based, not on their own muscle, or activism in their own communities, but on appealing to the "great british public's sense of fair play" and therefore influencing Major's government.
Not surprisingly, they lost.
In 1992. Calling for "bringing back the hit squads" was comparable to the WRP calling a general strike. However, don't get me wrong, outside and against is worse.
Leanrd- he clearly didn't "condone ludicrous anarcho-purist" positions...
Eh? What the fuck? When the fuck have I ever done this? I said that Outside and Against is FAR stupider than any shit CWF have come up with on unions, and I'm very far from an anarcho purist. I seriously don't know what you're basing this on.
Apologies - we were writing posts at pretty much the same time, and I did not see the fact you actually disagreed with the "outside and against" drivel.
pingtiao wrote:
Did the ACF do that? That sounds silly- was it a copy of the Wildcat pmphlet of the same name?It was a pamphlet which the ACF/Wildcat sold on the huge 1992 "Save the Miners" march in London.
It was a classic example of people being driven mad by their own logic.....
Apparently this is not true... 
Yes, I just asked about this on the internal list and am told it is not true.
Over to you Leanard. Evidence?
Yes, I just asked about this on the internal list and am told it is not true.Over to you Leanard. Evidence?
You got a very quick response from your internal list, as the claim was only made on this site 2.07pm.
pingtiao wrote:
Yes, I just asked about this on the internal list and am told it is not true.Over to you Leanard. Evidence?
You got a very quick response from your internal list, as the claim was only made on this site 2.07pm.
And? It isn't that odd really- quite a few people have access to email whilst at work.
So, where did you get this info from? I've heard it before i think, Ed who posts here mentioned it, and I assume this must be what he was talking about.
So then: rumour or fact?
Your evidence relating to that response won't be quite as quick then will it Leonard, judging by that reply.
No - because my chances of finding an AF member and a Wildcat member willing to admit to such stupuidity are virtually nil. I will have to find a copy of the original document, and then see if there are any references to where it was distributed. I have certainly been told by people who attended the 1992 march, that they did.
Can I ask a question though? Give the AF cannot currently find members to post on its discussion board on enrager more than once a month, I find the velocity with which pingtaio and Jimmer have "proved" this claim to be false, via an internal e mail list, to be suspicious.
Can you post on the AF internal list a question, asking if AF members distributed the "Outside and against the unions" document, and if so, where?
And perhaps give people more than an hour to answer?
I don't have to prove anything to you mate. And jimmer, catch and I are all in the AF, which sorts of puts paid to your claim about AF members on enrager.
That is exactly what I did post, and have had 2 replies from people who were there on the march- saying that your claim in untrue, and that they distributed Organise. Am I right in thinking that you are saying you weren't there yourself?
I don't have to prove anything to you mate. And jimmer, catch and I are all in the AF, which sorts of puts paid to your claim about AF members on enrager.
I suggest you read my claim again, then look at the AF section of this board. The last time anyone posted on there was 5th Feb?
I was on the march, but did not see anyone from the AF there.
Ah, sorry- I misread that.
So- does this rumour have basis in fact then? I've asked the people who this is directed at (whom I have no reason to disbelieve based on experience and actually knowing them), and they tell me it is not true.
I suggest you read my claim again, then look at the AF section of this board. The last time anyone posted on there was 5th Feb?
What has that got to do with anything?
Plenty AFers posting outside of the AF forum though...always have been. What an odd criticism.
So- does this rumour have basis in fact then? I've asked the people who this is directed at (whom I have no reason to disbelieve based on experience and actually knowing them), and they tell me it is not true.
Not sure of this clears it up or not but...
See page 6 of the book "All Power to the Imagination" by Dave Douglass where it is stated that the ACF gave out leaflets saying they were against the unions, when miners campaigned in London.
Organise issue 30 (April-Jun 1993) reviews a pamphlet of Dave Douglass's and the Wildcat "Outside and Against the Unions" pamphlet. It makes some criticisms of DD, but none of the Wildcat pamphlet, before telling people to read both and make up their own minds.
Where I disagree very strongly with the Organise review is where they stupidly claim the purpose of DD pamphlet (from a speech at the 1991 CW International Conference) was to stifle criticism of trades unionism in and around the anarchist movement.
That is not Dave's objective, never has been and never will be.
But Paul, DD has never quite been on the ball when identifying groups has he? In the same book he mixes up a whole load of groups around at the time (echanges/subversion/wildcat/ACF as was) and lumps them all in together as purists and ultra-lefts. This goes way back to the echanges stuff in the 80s i think - he and Brendel arguing.
Leonard, you were on the demo, yet you saw no AFers. You claim you were told that we were distributing this pamphlet. So you saw no AFers doing so. Afer's who were there say it didn't happen and that all we distributed was copies of Organise!
I was at the '92 miners march and as has been said it was Organise! we distributed.
Don't know where the 'Outside and Against the Unions' story came from. I can't remember ever seeing it street sold by anyone.
And for what it's worth I though Cajo Brendel had a better position than either DD in 'refracted perpectives' or Wildcat in 'OAATU'. Can't remember where I saw Brendels stuff though. Probably 'Exchanges'.
Right, does anyone on here know anyone who actually saw AF members distributing the Wildcat pamphlet "outside and Against the Unions" on the Miners' March? Anyone other than DD?
Because, not to mince words, if there is no-one willing to come forward on this, and the AFers on the march say it didn't happwn, then comrade Douglas is either confused or...
This is the reply by one of the founding members of the A(C)F (for those of you who know- he usuially posts on forunms as Charlie Mowbray (don't know if he wants his real name used on here)):
I was at the 1992 demo as were quite a few other members. In those days we didn't have Resistance and didn't do mobile bookstalls. We soldOrganise! on the demo and certainly did not sell the Outside the Unions pamphlet produced by Wildcat. I CATEGORICALLY DENY THIS. It is an out right lie. If Leonard from Leominster was on this demo , by the way, and did not see any AFers, how does he know we were trying to sell it in the first
place?
This totally false allegation has also been repeated by Workers Power
members. Who would you rather believe?
I have just spoken to Dave Douglass, who tells me the ACF (as the AF was then called) distributed a leaflet entitled "Why we are against the unions" at the miners march.
If Charlie Mowbray categorically denies this, perhaps he, or Dave is wrong.
It is however consistent with the politics of the ACF at the time, and before Charlie Mowbray gets on his high horse, he will remember better than most the shit the ACF threw around at the time towards Dave.
I can remember the smears that he was not a miner but merely an NUM pen-pusher, that Dave was a Stalinist and a Leninist all in a very sinister piece in Organise that ended "thinks to Trotwatch for the information on Dave Douglass".
We did have a leaflet on the unions we used to hand out around that time but it certainly wasn't called 'outisde and against the unions' or 'why we are aginst the unions'. That's never been our position. As we say in our aims and principles : '... we do not argue for people to leave unions until they are made irrelevant by the revolutionary event. The union is a common point of departure for many workers. Rank and file initiatives may strengthen us in the battle for anarchist communism. What's important is that we organise ourselves collectively, arguing for workers to control struggles themselves.'
Yes we did have a spat with Dave Douglas with shit flying in both directions, in fact it seems some is still flying around. DD was I think also having spats with Cajo Brendel, Wildcat and Subversion at the time as well and some of the details seem to have got a bit mixed up.
I don't think he was a full time union bureaucrat but he did at one point have a column in the Stalinist paper 'The Leninist'.
See page 6 of the book "All Power to the Imagination" by Dave Douglass where it is stated that the ACF gave out leaflets saying they were against the unions, when miners campaigned in London.Organise issue 30 (April-Jun 1993) reviews a pamphlet of Dave Douglass's and the Wildcat "Outside and Against the Unions" pamphlet. It makes some criticisms of DD, but none of the Wildcat pamphlet, before telling people to read both and make up their own minds.
Good enough for me.
If Dave is wrong on this (and I say if) the AF have had six years to point out any error - the book was published in 1999.
If Dave is wrong on this (and I say if) the AF have had six years to point out any error - the book was published in 1999.
And we have done so repeatdly (some of the posts above point this out) each and every time we've been accused of this since then - and believe me it's quite a regular thing.
Does anyone else have a sinking feeling that a similar version of this conversation will be going on between Jack, Raw et al in 20 years' time?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but who cares what members of what group did what over a decade ago in an evidently unmemorable way? AF have a clear policy today, which isn't 'outside and against', so what possible use does this thread have?
hooray for good sense there...
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Did the ACF do that? That sounds silly- was it a copy of the Wildcat pmphlet of the same name?