The article about the band Death In June

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mandelbro
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Oct 30 2007 16:33
The article about the band Death In June

I would like to react to the articale I found by googling "death june nazi" where the band Death In June is portrayed as a fascist/neonazi band. I am not going to make this a long story or even try to prove that the band is not what the article claims. I simply want to point something out about one album in particular (I could point out similar things about many other albums), the case being the album "Take Care and Control". Take for instance the cover. The cover shows, clearly, a depiction of Hitler in a greenish and gooey image which to me doesn't look in the least flattering. It makes Hitler look ugly and seems to mock him. Further, the songs themselves. Overall they have a sad feel about them. The bunker, for instance, repeats the phrases "I'm alone" and "We're alone", among other things. It's a moody, swirling, organ like sound that is repeated in the song "The Bunker, Empty", this time without lyrics. Well, we all know what bunker this theme refers to. Then there is a song called "Power has a fragrance". Without going into the lyrics let me just say that the notion of "power" is clearly mocked in it. Now back to the article. That states that Douglas P has declared having been interested in National Bolshevism and how a group of people from the SS that adhered to this political ideology in WWII Germany, planned to assassinate Hitler or remove him from power. It also states that Douglas P is particularly interested in the notion how much this would have changed the course of history, if it had succeeded. So a band, with a possible fascist ideology, appears to mock, and agree with the (failed) removal from power of Hitler. I find that interesting. I also find that themes in Death In June's music are loneliness, isolation, despair and a slightly sarcastic sense of humor. The state of affairs in the world in general is often touched upon. Religion is an often recurring theme. From the song "Blood Winter": "The world is hell".

Flint
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Oct 30 2007 17:31

The article speaks for itself.

Continue to comment, and expect to be mocked.

Actually, you can probably expect to be mocked no matter what, considering the forum you are posting on.

It's not at all surprising that fascists can have different opinions about this or that issue, or that they might try to assassinate one another. You'll find no apologists for National Bolshevism or the "left wing" of the SA (it was the SA, btw, Rohm, night of the long knives and all that) here.

mandelbro
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Oct 30 2007 17:42

Well I adhere to no particular political ideology...In fact I would call myself anti-political...I know that political ideologies both leftwing and rightwing have caused incredible suffering and death throughout history, and the same can be said about religion.

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Devrim
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Oct 30 2007 17:48

Funnily enough, I actually met these people once at a party. They denied being fascists to me when I asked them. Before they became 'Death in June' They were the SWP 'houseband' Crisis.
Devrim
Disclamer:I don't know the group, or their music, and have no opinion, or knowledge of this controversy.

Terry
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Oct 30 2007 17:53

That states that Douglas P has declared having been interested in National Bolshevism and how a group of people from the SS that adhered to this political ideology in WWII Germany, planned to assassinate Hitler or remove him from power.

So it does. I'd be suprised if the claim were true. (it was the SA btw as Flint points out, and in 1934, not during the Second World War).

Isn't there a fair strain of this sorta Nazi malarky through industrial/darkwave/whateveryoucall it music.

Oddly enough I was actually listening to Death in June when I saw this thread.

mandelbro
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Oct 30 2007 18:34

I didn't have the article up on my computer when I typed my response, thus the inaccuracies. I don't understand btw, how some of these bands go so far in their symbolism and historical facts' references. Well some do, some don't. I like the music itself though. I also listen to NON/Boyd Rice and Der Blutharsch. I think Boyd Rice is simply a staunch misanthrope. His music is mostly some form of noise and lyrics are often nonsensical or weird stories, sometimes just self-glorification. He just puts himself above humanity. I've had periods like that and I can understand it. As for Der Blutharsch. That's extremely militaristic, march-like music. But I think it reflects more the suffering and darkness of military history than that it glorifies it. I can definitely understand how it attracts neo-nazis, though. I just know that I am not one myself and neither will the music ever turn me into one.

Flint
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Oct 30 2007 18:50
Terry wrote:
Isn't there a fair strain of this sorta Nazi malarky through industrial/darkwave/whateveryoucall it music. d.

I'd say it's definitely a minority trend, at best. If there is much political ideology in industrial/darkwave/associated spooky/electronic genres... it's a left progressive to radical.

Lots of interviews and lyrics about political content in industrial.

Flint
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Oct 30 2007 18:52
mandelbro wrote:
Well I adhere to no particular political ideology...In fact I would call myself anti-political...I know that political ideologies both leftwing and rightwing have caused incredible suffering and death throughout history, and the same can be said about religion.

Here's a hint. Noone cares what your politics are. Acting as if "left" and "right" was any kind of useful taxonomy shows that your opinion is basically garbage. Yeah... Stalin bad, Hitler Bad, Ivan the Terrible Bad.. we got that you are so moderate that you think all extremists are bad. Unless they make shitty folk music that you like.

Flint
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Oct 30 2007 18:58
mandelbro wrote:
I also listen to NON/Boyd Rice and Der Blutharsch. I think Boyd Rice is simply a staunch misanthrope. His music is mostly some form of noise and lyrics are often nonsensical or weird stories, sometimes just self-glorification. He just puts himself above humanity. I've had periods like that and I can understand it.

Yep, people sure are stupid. Where could they ever get the idea that Boyd Rice was a nazi sympathizer.

oh.

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Rob Ray
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Oct 30 2007 19:05

Flint, don't flame noobs.

Mandelbro, left and right wing aren't relevant political axes, they're handy labels the media use to set certain groups within political 'trends'. For example, anarchism is sometimes characterised as 'ultra left' when it usually actively opposes what is traditionally defined as left (eg. the creation of a strong state to impose economic discipline on the working class which is led by a revolutionary vanguard).

Anarchists were among the earliest and most vocal opponents of the soviet regime, try Alexander Berkman's The Russian Tragedy for example, which charts his disillusionment with, and eventual hatred of, the great Russian experiment precisely because he was an anarchist.

Flint
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Oct 30 2007 19:11
Saii wrote:
Flint, don't flame noobs.

Mandelbro is not a noob. He's a self-described "apolitical" fan of Death in June, Boyd Rice and Der Blutharsch that is posting to a Libertarian Communist forum about how DiJ and friends are just misunderstood National Bolsheviks, fascists (who don't like Hitler) and misanthropes. Mandelbro is just trolling and deserves nothing but mockery.

mandelbro
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Oct 30 2007 19:23

Oic...but do anarchists believe that democracy is a workable form of goverment?
I mean there has to be some form of control otherwise you get pure anarchy and that leads to survival of the fittest.
Do we need all these political ideologies to find out what is the best form of organization of a society?
Did countries just experiment with different forms of government to find out the best one? Killing millions in the process. I believe that Soviet Communism was a form of fascism too.

mandelbro
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Oct 30 2007 19:28

He might be...his music at least never preaches hatred or extremism or even politics for that matter.

Flint
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Oct 30 2007 19:55
mandelbro wrote:
Oic...but do anarchists believe that democracy is a workable form of goverment?
I mean there has to be some form of control otherwise you get pure anarchy and that leads to survival of the fittest.
Do we need all these political ideologies to find out what is the best form of organization of a society?
Did countries just experiment with different forms of government to find out the best one? Killing millions in the process. I believe that Soviet Communism was a form of fascism too.

Start a new forum topic if you wish to discuss these issues. Most people will never even glance at a post apologizing for Death in June.

Societies will have some kind of organization. Various political ideologies are useful in understanding social organization and making suggestions for improvement. What is an improvement is subjective and probably influenced by someone's ethics.

The government of the U.S.S.R. was authoritarian and democidal. Calling it fascism is nothing but a pejorative use of the term and does nothing to illuminate much about the USSR or about fascism. Statist governments have varying degrees of authoritarianism. While fascist regimes are authoritarian, not all authoritarian regimes are fascist. What fascism is, would be a good discussion. As would be what was the USSR (and even that probably needs to be broken down by time period, as in Stalin's USSR was different than Gorbachev's USSR).

Noone here supports killing millions. Death in June, Boyd Rice and Der Blutharsch are AT BEST considerably more ambiguous about such matters.

mandelbro wrote:
He might be...his music at least never preaches hatred or extremism or even politics for that matter.

I assume you are referring to Boyd Rice here? Have you read Might is Right? Excuse me for taking a self-described misanthrope seriously for releasing an album version.

mandelbro
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Oct 30 2007 20:01

I saw that we listen to some of the same bands like dead can dance and depeche mode
I think the Nazi malarki is pretty abundant in most neo folk
there's a whole lot of neo folk bands who are into the same kind of stuf that I don't listen to because I don't have the time/I already have plenty of music

Flint
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Oct 30 2007 20:19
mandelbro wrote:
I saw that we listen to some of the same bands like dead can dance and depeche mode

Right now I'm listening to Garmarna. What does this have to do with anything.

mandelbro wrote:
I saw that we listen to some of the same bands like dead can dance and depeche mode
I think the Nazi malarki is pretty abundant in most neo folk
there's a whole lot of neo folk bands who are into the same kind of stuf that I don't listen to because I don't have the time/I already have plenty of music

What are you arguing, exactly? That there are some over the top obviously nazi neo-folk bands that you don't listen to but you give a pass to fence sitters or musicians deliberately ambiguous (or not so ambiguous... like Wilhelm Herich shouting "Free Pinochet")?

I grew up listening to Lynard Skynard and can still quote most of the lyrics, but that doesn't some how stop me from understanding that they were either ambiguous on the issue or actually pro-segregation in their "Sweet Home Alabama". I still dance to Combichrist even if it's the EBM equivalent of misogynistic gangsta rap.

Are you expecting us to sanction your music tastes or get behind your effort to rehabilitate musicians who don't want to be rehabilitated?

I'm thinking the odds are that noone else on this website cares, and my mind is already made up.

mandelbro
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Oct 30 2007 20:20

I saw that book on the web (I believe it is about strength, courage and of course racism and sexism) I looked on B R's website but I can't find anything like that in his discography...I have a few of his albums ... Children of the black sun is a number of crescendos ad infinitum...or in other words it sounds like the soundtrack to different forms of hell with one track sounding like a tranquil heaven...DIJ and BR released alarm agents...meandering, quiet and philosophical, sometimes humorous, and I also have Wolf Pact...that is full of strange tales and aboriginal inspired australian sounding music, with funny tracks about worlds colliding and worlds on fire ... and a track that goes "back up in full speed and crash into the police car" "my pleasure sir" just some dark goofiness

however , der blutharsch definitely has some of what that book is described as having

Flint
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Oct 30 2007 20:31
mandelbro wrote:
I saw that book on the web (I believe it is about strength, courage and of course racism and sexism) I looked on B R's website but I can't find anything like that in his discography...I have a few of his albums ... Children of the black sun is a number of crescendos ad infinitum...or in other words it sounds like the soundtrack to different forms of hell with one track sounding like a tranquil heaven...DIJ and BR released alarm agents...meandering, quiet and philosophical, sometimes humorous, and I also have Wolf Pact...that is full of strange tales and aboriginal inspired australian sounding music, with funny tracks about worlds colliding and worlds on fire ... and a track that goes "back up in full speed and crash into the police car" "my pleasure sir" just some dark goofiness

however , der blutharsch definitely has some of what that book is described as having

"On Might! (1995), Rice layers portions of "Ragnar Redbeard"'s Social Darwinist harangue, Might is Right over sound beds of looped noise and manipulated frequencies."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyd_Rice

He produces that stuff, mugs for photos in uniform with the American Front. Rice thrives off the confusion about his association with fascism and social Darwinism.

I don't care what is in your music collection.

mandelbro
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Oct 30 2007 21:24

"Boyd Blake Rice (born July or December 1956) is a depopulationist, American experimental sound artist, occultist, archivist, actor, photographer, prankster and writer best known for his pioneering industrial noise music under the name NON"

he's a depopulationist...well he should start by offing himself then maybe
although I understand that there are way too many people on the planet...we hardly know anymore what to do with all our chemical and non chemical waste...I haven't bred myself but I get angry when I see people have 4 or more kids who can't raise or feed them or in a country that's already full of people

"When all is said and done, I have no great quarrel with being labeled a "fascist." While it is not the whole story, it implies (to me) a sort of Marquis De Sade worldview that sees life in terms of master and slave, strong and weak, predator and prey. I know such views are highly unfashionable, but to me they seem fairly consistent with what I've seen to be true. If others choose to see the world in terms of sugar, spice and everything nice, that's certainly their prerogative, and I would never dream of trying to tell them otherwise. However, I might suggest that they always keep a loaded pistol on the off chance that they could possibly be mistaken."

He's got a point here, crime is rampant...a lot of people are acting just the way he describes
War is still happening
In fact you are fighting me for posting my ideas on an article on this site...you're no better than the people boyd rice describes

mandelbro
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Oct 30 2007 21:24

"Boyd Blake Rice (born July or December 1956) is a depopulationist, American experimental sound artist, occultist, archivist, actor, photographer, prankster and writer best known for his pioneering industrial noise music under the name NON"

he's a depopulationist...well he should start by offing himself then maybe
although I understand that there are way too many people on the planet...we hardly know anymore what to do with all our chemical and non chemical waste...I haven't bred myself but I get angry when I see people have 4 or more kids who can't raise or feed them or in a country that's already full of people

"When all is said and done, I have no great quarrel with being labeled a "fascist." While it is not the whole story, it implies (to me) a sort of Marquis De Sade worldview that sees life in terms of master and slave, strong and weak, predator and prey. I know such views are highly unfashionable, but to me they seem fairly consistent with what I've seen to be true. If others choose to see the world in terms of sugar, spice and everything nice, that's certainly their prerogative, and I would never dream of trying to tell them otherwise. However, I might suggest that they always keep a loaded pistol on the off chance that they could possibly be mistaken."

He's got a point here, crime is rampant...a lot of people are acting just the way he describes
War is still happening
In fact you are fighting me for posting my ideas on an article on this site...you're no better than the people boyd rice describes

ah crap I had a problem with a post not showing up and now this one shows up twice...can't delete it sorry

Flint
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Oct 30 2007 23:28

When white people who hang out with nazis, like social darwinism and are self-described misanthropes start talking about "depopulation", I get very nervous.

How much of the world's "surplus" population do you reckon is creating so much chemical and nonchemical waste? Or more specifically, which people. Let's make a list.

Crime in the U.S. is actually on a thirty year decline.

I'm not fighting you, I'm arguing against your points. Disagreement isn't violence.

People who are arguing for "depopulation" really don't have much ground to be concerned when people take their arguments seriously and think they are talking about mass murder.

Anyway, I'm really done discussing things with you. Someone else can play with you if they want, but I don't really see much reason to argue with apologists for fascists.

lem
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Oct 31 2007 02:39

i find military/fascist aethetics interesting if confined to art. not sure why it's ok to use as a shock tactic but not as a confined aesthetic. challenging isn't it, but sometimes too much so.

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jambo1
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Oct 31 2007 06:51

crisis were great, death in june were shit. end off. roll eyes

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welshboy
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Oct 31 2007 22:28

bin?

mandelbro
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Nov 1 2007 20:43

oh, far away
There lies a dream
We're all seeking
It's locked away
The key hangs near
Our hands are tied

And far away
In darkest days
We are living
I call your name
Too wrapped in lies
You don't hear me

So far away
Near shores of deep
Empty oceans
There lies the pearl
There lies the dream
And our conscience

We'll rise above
We'll rise above all the killing
we'll rise above
We'll rise above while you're sleeping

Still far away
There lies a dream
We're all seeking
Still locked away
The key hangs near
Our hands are tied

we'll rise above
We'll rise above while you're sleeping

We'll rise above
We'll rise above all the killing

mandelbro
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Nov 1 2007 20:54

It was in the torched village
The last farewell
We burned and screamed inside
We burned and screamed in Hell

Is that the meanderings of a miltant?
I wished people would actually listen to the music before judging someone

Flint
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Nov 1 2007 21:56
mandelbro wrote:
Is that the meanderings of a miltant?
I wished people would actually listen to the music before judging someone

I wish people would be capable of judging a musician's politics by their actions, and not because they like the sound or interpret some of the ambiguous lyrics.

"We are fascists as much as Hitler was a painter.", Laibach

DiJ are fencewalkers, AT BEST, who play with scum like Changes.

And no, I don't think Laibach is fascist.

Besides, what point are you trying to even prove now? You started by calling DiJ "national bolshevik" and just went down hill from there.

mandelbro
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Nov 1 2007 22:57

hmm according to the web Changes is pagan
Apocalyptic folk
band has been around since 1969
DIJ or Douglas P doesn't use the swastika and that's a sacred Hindu symbol which the nazis abused
runes are ancient symbols too
I didn't call DIJ national bolshevik I only said Douglas P was interested in it at some point in his career
I think the whole fascist/communist thing is funny
people kill others for whatever reason they may find
I don't think Douglas P ever killed anyone or had anyone killed
would you call fundamentalist Muslims fascist too? I don't think fascism is bad, I think killing people is
If I stand up for my being a proud Dutch national I would be called a fascist
so what...I don't harm anyone with that

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madashell
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Nov 1 2007 23:00
mandelbro wrote:
although I understand that there are way too many people on the planet...we hardly know anymore what to do with all our chemical and non chemical waste...I haven't bred myself but I get angry when I see people have 4 or more kids who can't raise or feed them or in a country that's already full of people

Wow.

mandelbro
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Nov 1 2007 23:23

Thousands got sick in an african city after a Dutch (I am Dutch) cargo ship had a company there illegally dump their highly toxic waste at several waste dumps without any processing. We are rapidly using up all our natural resources. Sooner or later there's gonna be a lot of dying. Well there already is in that poor Africa where people were taught by the miserable missionaries that having a lot of children is Christian. Before we the West messed up the whole world in most places they were doing quite well.

Hold a bloodied knife to the throat of love

Embrace this waste with white love - incite!
Our pyres burning and our tongues filled with lies
To speak the truth, dead of all belief?
No seek and fear this final tear

Europa the gates of heaven
Europa the gates of hell

Your only hope, a life charmed black
An empty grin for we cannot turn back
A seeking silence and a creeping lust
The pork-men crackle as they turn to dust

Europa the gates of heaven
Europa the gates of hell

No gnawing teeth are to be found here
So laugh and hide from white love and white fear

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MJ
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Nov 1 2007 23:39
mandelbro wrote:
If I stand up for my being a proud Dutch national I would be called a fascist