The article about the band Death In June

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mandelbro
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Nov 1 2007 23:43

And? How many times haven't I heard Americans saying on tv that they are proud Americans?

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MJ
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Nov 1 2007 23:49
mandelbro wrote:
And? How many times haven't I heard Americans saying on tv that they are proud Americans?

Exactly.

lem
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Nov 2 2007 09:17

it doesn't do any harm and art shouldn't be "censored". i mean "there's a line to be drawn somewhere" i wouldn't put swatikas on my walls but i don't see the connection fwiw.

lem
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Nov 2 2007 09:18

it can be a bit embaressing to listen to tho surprised

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Tacks
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Nov 2 2007 09:40

another win thread grin

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Tacks
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Nov 2 2007 09:55

jesus, just wiki surfing from the american front article and got this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver

fucking hell.

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Aug 14 2008 02:30

I like dark and confrontational art and music. I think there is something very interesting going on with Boyd RIce and Death In June and those types (Radiowerewolf, Der Blutsharsch, Luftwaffe, Von Thronstahl) but this music does not exist on it's own. Being an artist is not a free pass to say what you want. And issues like fascism are very different from mere interest in say something like serial killers as it can have very direct political reprocussions. Even a band that is truly only trying to push artistic limits might very well inspire mobs of fans who turn that idea into real racial violence for example. So it's good it's being discussed. A lot of underground types try to paint these conversations as being about cencorship for it's own sake. But of course, it's about creating a society where no one needs to worry about being jumped by some bonehead listening to some ambiguous martial music.

When Boyd Rice goes on Race and Reason, he chooses a side. When Von Thronstahl makes music treating the SS as heroes without any apparent irony of any kind, they choose a side.

Let's remember, a lot of the themes they are working with are not new. Uniformity and occult mysticism were used to rally support by the Nazis to devestating effect.

My advice, don't buy anything from an artist unless you are sure they are not the types to advocate ideas that devalue whole groups of people.

That being said, I think you can make dark art or art that honestly explores ideas like power and control without being a fascist. Part of that is making very clear offstage what you are doing, that all are welcome at your gigs, that you oppose racism and fascism. It should not be hard to be clear on that. But we don't want to squash art that is controversial or maybe even offensive. I think that art can be very important.

If people have not, check out The Swans, Throbbing Gristle, Laibach, Test Dept for some off beat and sometimes quite macabre work. Flint's site is a great resource , he knows his stuff!

The only good fascist....well you know the rest.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I DO NOT think that most of the above mentioned bands were merely trying to push artistic limits. I think something far more intentional is going on which connects with a far right desire to reclaim the notion of the culture that led to the third reich. A culture that viewed European people as heros fighting for purity amdist a world of racial and political decay. This is present in everything bands like Von Thronstahl and Der Blutsharsh do.

Death In June I have no real idea about, but no matter their intentions they have clearly been lost to the right. I think Douglas P may have wanted something different at the outset, but at the very least has become deeply confused. As someone here said, being all about the left wing of the Fascists is still being all about the fascists. And the company the band keeps is damning.

I used to to think Boyd Rice was just an asshole, who may have been trying to make some interesting art based on power and control. But his friends are nazis, and he went on Race and Reason, and I don't think he wants anything other than to revel in his fascist fantasy. It's fucked up because he has gay and jewish friends, as well as women despite the truly sickening things he has written about rape and women not being worth as much as men.

But overall what is important is that this scene exists more often that not as a tool for a right wing persepctive, whether or not established right wing groups are involved.

I think a good number of the fans are non racist themselves though, so I hope people will read articles like this and give up listening to these bands. Some of them are really interesting to listen to, I was exposed to many through my ex boyfriend and I like the industrial and martial overtones, but sadly almost no single band in the scene seems free of this fascist corruption.

It's especially sad because I would like to think that people with an interest in these types of topics could make music that challenged it while exploring our darker and more violent side. The martial industria genre can count Test Dept and Militia amongst it's non racist wing, but I think Neofolk it totally useless at this point.

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888
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Jul 18 2008 19:49
Flint wrote:
"We are fascists as much as Hitler was a painter.", Laibach.

So they're not particulalry competent fascists, but fascists nonetheless? Is that what they are trying to say? Luckily I don't listen to goth music.

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Jul 18 2008 19:57

I don't think Laibach is a fascist band. I think they are trying to challenge and explore ideas surrounding fascism though. The difference for me is really what happens offstage.

Bottom line, Death in June talks about the need for European unity against the rest of the world, the danger of immigrants, etc. They also play with people far more steeped in actual right wing politics than they might be, I think Douglas P should grow a spine and just declare himself a White Nationalist. I doubt he'd find a warm reception amongst many of them though given his sexual preference and admiration of the plotters who tried to kill Hitler. I think he wants to retain credibility as an artist, but has long since stopped exploring anything and know just gets by on a sort of "boo I used a deaths head, look how dark I am....but of course I do not mean it" schtick.

Not that impressive.

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redboots
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Aug 14 2008 02:43

EDIT: that was ranty, just edited my above comments to be more clear

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OliverTwister
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Aug 14 2008 07:14
888 wrote:
Flint wrote:
"We are fascists as much as Hitler was a painter.", Laibach.

So they're not particulalry competent fascists, but fascists nonetheless? Is that what they are trying to say? Luckily I don't listen to goth music.

Maybe they're trying to claim that Hitler wasn't a painter.

I think they also like to stay ambiguous so they can continue to mock fascism/stalinism.

raw
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Aug 14 2008 23:12

Not sure if people have read Stewart Homes take on DIJ/Douglas P.

WE MEAN IT MAN: PUNK ROCK AND ANTI-RACISM
or, Death In June not mysterious

Personally I like (musical) some Boyd Rice, though most of it (and DIJ) is embarrassing shite. Politically as well the whole thing doesn't make sense as on the one hand Rice is against the control and domination over the individual but at the same time he sees the need for a new order based on completely delegation, control and domination over the individual!?!. The symbolism itself is fairly wrapped up in pre-1930's Nazi Occultism, and I've read that the influences of DIJ/Boyd Rice pre-date Nazism, mainly around the writings of Oswald Spengler (The Decline of the West, Man and Technics) which is all pretty hardcore anti-semitic, apocalyptic writings. Also Boyd Rice was the founder of the "Free Charles Manson" campaign!

Funny reading around especially about Spengler that Harold Ramis (director of Ghostbusters) had one of the characters named after Spengler (Egon Spengler). The Film itself is based on some of the ideas of the Decline of the West - very spooky!

There are also other bands which have been name-checked like Current 93, who were Nick Caves Backing band last decade. There is a romantic, irrationality and uncritical look at the world this runs through fascist idealogy as a whole. The inability to interpret experience into a coherent form. We can see that with the BNP. That is the danger though, if culture develops to the point where falsification and irrationality form the dominant social tendencies then it will become more fertile ground for fascist ideas. If anything that should be the target for us generally, attacking the ignorance that is the norm.

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Aug 15 2008 08:47
raw wrote:

Personally I like (musical) some Boyd Rice, though most of it (and DIJ) is embarrassing shite. Politically as well the whole thing doesn't make sense as on the one hand Rice is against the control and domination over the individual but at the same time he sees the need for a new order based on completely delegation, control and domination over the individual!?!. The symbolism itself is fairly wrapped up in pre-1930's Nazi Occultism, and I've read that the influences of DIJ/Boyd Rice pre-date Nazism, mainly around the writings of Oswald Spengler (The Decline of the West, Man and Technics) which is all pretty hardcore anti-semitic, apocalyptic writings. Also Boyd Rice was the founder of the "Free Charles Manson" campaign!

Funny reading around especially about Spengler that Harold Ramis (director of Ghostbusters) had one of the characters named after Spengler (Egon Spengler). The Film itself is based on some of the ideas of the Decline of the West - very spooky!

There are also other bands which have been name-checked like Current 93, who were Nick Caves Backing band last decade. There is a romantic, irrationality and uncritical look at the world this runs through fascist idealogy as a whole. The inability to interpret experience into a coherent form. We can see that with the BNP. That is the danger though, if culture develops to the point where falsification and irrationality form the dominant social tendencies then it will become more fertile ground for fascist ideas. If anything that should be the target for us generally, attacking the ignorance that is the norm.

I also like the music overall. I want to start a communist martial industrial band that draws on some of the energy and themes but does not promote the lie of racial purity. Bottom line, I don't think it much matter what you listen to on a personal level, but not everyone will listen to Boyd Rice and Death In June and still remain left leaning, it will create right wing thinkers amongst the confused. Dressing up fascism as sadly heroic is still promoting fascism.

I really would love to see some bands that could make gloomy martial music that did not rely on racism. Indeed, think how much stronger their work would be if they looked at the legends and struggles of all people. I would love to be involved in multicultural red neofolk.

At the very least I hope no one is buying stuff from Boyd Rice or Death in June. I think something will eventually give and Neofolk will become divided into truly fascist and the truly experimental. Too many people are getting tired of the endless excuses. Ive literally heard people desperatly argue that Boyd Rice on Race and Reason was a prank! When he spent a whole hour touting the creation of aryan culture. When does a prank become you just being a racist? Right fucking there.

And as a side rant, its irritating to see a whole new group touting Odinic symbols as inherently racist. A whole mytholoogy that now only gets connected with nazis. Ah well

I am pretty sure Current 93 is not at all fascist, though I think they do have some connections with Death In June and the like. Actually I thin they might have gotten name dropped by Rice on Race and Reason, but I dont think they are. Current 93 seems much less steeped in the martial overtones and more wrapped up in emotionalism.

Also, Tony Wakeford is far more fucked up than I thought having read some more stuff on Stewarthome. I knew he had been involved in the NF but also he ended up marrying a Jewish woman so I thought he may have mellowed, but he apparently was quite the bonehead back in the day (today?). I think the lead singer of Radiowerewolf also married a jewish woman. It does not make their work less racist of course, but it does seem odd.

As far as what the art is about, I think for the most part there is not an organized agenda. It does not really matter as I think the neofolk scene as a whole has come to represent a specific worldview that will help the right wing recruit people. For example...

- It's acceptable to wear the uniforms of the opressor just to look dark and imposing. You don't need to be trying to show anyone anything about what wearing a uniform does to those not wearing a uniform. It becomes and end it and of itself. This might not be harmful if you were just wearing some camo togs, after all everyone can get down with a little militancy, but when it is specifically SS? That's something to take great care with. You have to make sure you have something to say. I think Laibach does this well.

- Interest in WW2 similarly becomes an end in and of itself. It's easy to get a gut reaction with this era of history for good reason.

- A type of elitism is encouraged based on supposedly artistic interest. Social Darwinism, "good" fascism ie. any fascist thought that was not Hitlers, the glory of war and battle, the glory of your "people" of your nation. Here of course people means European.

- Heathenism is used to convey a sense of divinity to the whole affair, this is par for the course with many modern racists. Heathenism is not inherently racialist, in fact the Northern Europeans frequently mixed with other peoples, and while not perfect by any means, were certainly an interesting people that do not deserve to be remembered only in the context of using some symbols in association with fascism.

In the end most of their fans will not join the NF or what not, many may be people of color, gay, or have half a wit about them, but again, it does not matter. It becomes a movement, a collection of ideas that the Right can and will use. And the moment they get any power any illusions of non racism will be out the window. Kind of like those bullshit national anarchists who say they are not for supremacy, but are of course merely tools for those who would espouse such things.

Personalist
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Aug 15 2008 11:35

Scary thread... I guess Nazism is becoming trendy again huh?

tigersiskillers
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Aug 15 2008 12:39

There's a decent, if old, article on fascist imagery and crossing the line in industrial music here.

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jef costello
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Aug 15 2008 13:37

If Ghostbusters is fascist then I think I'll have to rethink my beliefs.

raw
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Aug 15 2008 15:52
jef costello wrote:
If Ghostbusters is fascist then I think I'll have to rethink my beliefs.

Elements of it were influenced by "The Decline of the West" by Oswald Spengler, there is a bit about an cult which decided society was too sick to be saved so they built some sort of temple within a new york skyscraper.

Anyway, thats pretty useless knowledge in the grand schemes of things!

tigersiskillers
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Aug 15 2008 16:30

I was going to say that whatever the origins of the film, the theme song is still great, but on reflection there does seem to be a far right subtext:

Quote:
If there's something strange in your neighborhood

Who you gonna call?

Newcomers into the neighbourhood eh?

Quote:
Ghostbusters!

If there's something weird and it don't look good

Who you gonna call?

Ghostbusters!

Something? Or someone?

Quote:
I ain't afraid of no ghost

I ain't afraid of no ghost

Typical macho bravado

Quote:
If you're seeing things running through your head

Who can you call?

Ghostbusters!

An invisible man sleeping in your bed

Classic homophobic fear/desire dialectic.

Quote:
Oh, who you gonna call?

Ghostbusters!

I ain't afraid of no ghost

I ain't afraid of no ghost

Ghost = spectre of communism?

Or perhaps it represents the 'Eternal Jew', haunting the forests of a mythic Aryan past?

Quote:
Who you gonna call?

Ghostbusters!

If you're all alone, pick up the phone

And call

Ghostbusters!

To be honest I'm not quite sure what this bit means. Pick up the phone? Perhaps a metaphor for taking action (to protect the white race)?

Quote:
I ain't afraid of no ghost

I hear it likes the girls

Characteristic racist portrayal of the oversexed black man.

Quote:
I ain't afraid of no ghost

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Who you gonna call?

Ghostbusters!

If you've had a dose of a freaky ghost

immigrants and their filthy STDs

Quote:
You'd better call

Ghostbusters!

Let me tell you something

Bustin' makes me feel good

a reference to racist street violence.

Quote:
I ain't afraid of no ghost

I ain't afraid of no ghost

Don't get caught alone, oh no

Ghostbusters!

When it comes through your door

Unless you just want some more

again, undertones of an ambivalent homoeroticism - wanting some more?

Quote:
I think you better call

Ghostbusters!

Ow!

Presumably the result of having some more.

Quote:
Who you gonna call

Ghostbusters!

{Repeat to fade}

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Aug 15 2008 21:15

Who you gonna call?

Maybe it's just that I am a bad person, which is quite possible, but I can see the allure of uniforms and a sort of harsh totalitarian mindset as an asthetic. I also love weird mysterious occult stuff, because I am a goth dork. Kind of like I love pouring over books of serial killers. But that is the point. Fascism has always known how to make itself look sexy just as nationalists have always known how to appeal to humankinds lesser baser instincts to identify the other and fear it.

So it is important to cast a critical look at artistic movements using the same asthetic. You'll see it in artists wanting to explore depravity like Throbbing Gristle, Laibach, those who merely wish to shock you or are a-politcally macabre ie. GG allin or Sex Pistols, and those who hold actual right wing ideas like Der Blutharsch or Changes.

There's a lot of other Neofolk bands that I don't really think are fascist. They probably have some serious confrontation of privellege to do, but are often steeped in an interest in Heathenism which I think CAN be healthy when it does not stray into aryan occultism. For example, Omnia seems ok. Of the wand and the moon, Fire + Ice, and Lord Wind might be more nationalist as people, but their music seems pretty a political.

But the main problem is people in the scene not challenging the bands. For example Death In June. You use a deaths head? You better be god damned sure you know why. But that is still art in my mind, as is the uniforms. Because ww2 was a terrible period in history and I can see a macabre interest in it. If that was the end of it and Doug P got up and played bizarre folk music and I all were welcome and he worked against such things happening in the future. But then he plays with Changes, he chills with Boyd Rice who similarly is NOT merely a prankster or misanthrope because he hangs out with real fascists.

Fans want to excuse this all cuz they like the art. Hell, I'm like Vagner but he was an anti semite. If he was kicking we'd have to argue against his worldview.

Also, for what it's worth there is also Israeli and African Neofolk. That does not mean that using uniforms and martial music should not still be questioned, but it is not only a European genre, though it is pretty eurocentric, at the moment. Apocalyptic folk is more broad I think, bands like The Swans.

raw
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Aug 15 2008 18:11

you beat me to it comrade, fuck KKK

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Oct 9 2008 13:26

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I realize that probably even 'red' neofolk would be a kind of useless genre. I was re-reading stuff by Stewart Home, and I was struck by his discussion of the idea of fascist pornography and also some of what he wrote about the basic misunderstanding many underground artists seem to have about the supposed importance of single heroic/villainous individuals in history contrasted with a more coherent view on history being about class conflict.

Perhaps all extreme art ends up merely being masturbation? Even anarchist punk rock got tiring for me. Not the politics, but the scene. In any event, I think the basic artistic problem is that relying on controversial themes (even non fascist ones) is too easy. It also has been done a lot.

Its difficult to determine what authentic controversial art would look like.

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Mar 27 2013 15:34

I listen to Death In June, but don't give money to them.

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GrouchoMarxist
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Mar 27 2013 15:38

I know Current 93 arent nazis though, because they have anarchist friends.

freemind
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Mar 29 2013 11:44

I recently saw a Death in June fan walking through Leicester train station in full SS regalia and it seems to me that at the very least they are trivialising and mocking what those bastards stood for and what the victims suffered.
Some skinheads might like Skrewdrivers music and just equate the politics as an appendage to its style but either way they are giving a rationale and support to Nazism.
Death in June are shit and there is still a vibrant and vicious Nazi music scene with Rock against Communism gigs recently going on in London with Ic1 and Citizen Keane amongst others.
20 years ago with AFA and alike would have battered these scum and they were driven back but they are still there and the base intact.Death in June and their ilk ensure this trash remains.

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Mar 29 2013 12:16
freemind wrote:
I recently saw a Death in June fan walking through Leicester train station in full SS regalia and it seems to me that at the very least they are trivialising and mocking what those bastards stood for and what the victims suffered.
Some skinheads might like Skrewdrivers music and just equate the politics as an appendage to its style but either way they are giving a rationale and support to Nazism.
Death in June are shit and there is still a vibrant and vicious Nazi music scene with Rock against Communism gigs recently going on in London with Ic1 and Citizen Keane amongst others.
20 years ago with AFA and alike would have battered these scum and they were driven back but they are still there and the base intact.Death in June and their ilk ensure this trash remains.

At least with a band like Skrewdriver though there is no mistaking what they stand for; its obvious what they are.
Nobody would ever have started a thread called "Skrewdriver - A Nazi band?"

freemind
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Mar 29 2013 13:05

Obviously no one would have any doubt about Skrewdrivers politics but its the sublime ambiguity that makes DIJ dangerous as well as the fetishising/acceptance aspect.

khosmos
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Mar 29 2013 21:04

I guess, it's not easy to understand the whole feeling of absolute majesty of European culture, when living in a total capitalist society like in UK or USA. Heathenism is NOT fascism, and nazism is NOT fascism. The nazis pretty much fucked up the whole thing, but, yeah, being conscious of your roots does not equal with being hateful against other cultures and/or races. You should know that if you are interested in changing the current political system, for governmental ignorance must be replaced with adequate knowledge. For example, banning swastikas and such is a totally ignorant maneuvre, there are people for whom these symbols are important relics from the culture of their ancestors.
Neofolk is pretty much like a prefered mind-set not a political hazard. Have you ever heard of Der Blutharsch standing for eliminating the jews or stuff like that? Teh true evilz lies in the so-called nationalist and conservative parties, go after them, if you call yourself an anarchist!
In the end, how can you NOT become misanthropic if you come out of the forest and step into this consumerist bullshit, where everyone is obliged to call you sweetie while the only notion of love in their hearts is against having things, all kinds of glamorous things.

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Mar 29 2013 23:45

@khosmos - this European 'golden age' is something made up in modern times to meet modern political needs. For instance, I live in Wales, a part of Europe with proud cultural traditions (mostly made up or renovated in the C19th for quasi-nationalist reasons) . As they see it, the Welsh 'golden age' was ended by Germans and Scandinavians savages, who weren't man enough to stand up to the Huns invading from the East, and through Britain into the dark ages. Of course, that didn't stop some Welsh nationalists siding with the Nazis. It's all complete self-contradictory garbage. The historicist/racial thinking which supports Fascism/Nazism is not acceptable. Neo-folk needs to be recognised as being part of this - http://www.principiadialectica.co.uk/blog/?p=3310

bastarx
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Mar 30 2013 02:55

Nazi folkies fuck off.

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Apr 2 2013 17:52

I like the wear Nazi militaria but oppose Nazism. I just like the way the clothing looks.