Down votes

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Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
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Aug 26 2015 13:15
Down votes

So, I'm pretty sure this thread will probably end up turning into a shitstorm at some point, so I'm apologizing in advance. I should also say I'm writing this as someone who thinks the up/down system should be scrapped altogether. Anyway, Steven wrote this on another thread:

Quote:
Down votes should be used for users posting rude, bullying, discriminatory or other comments which breach our posting guidelines.

That's not just the way the down votes have ever been used. I'd say in 99 cases out of a hundred they're used to express disagreement (in the same way that up votes are used to express agreement) - whether that's some random right-winger who wanders onto the fight or when regular posters get into a flame war.

If the issue is breaching posting guidelines, a report button should suffice and that should be cue for the admins to review the post. If the issue is using the down votes for any other purpose, there's scope for warnings on basically every thread that's been started on the site since the up/down system was introduced.

EDIT: Or at least the down function should be scrapped - up votes are quite nice, I suppose.

admin: this thread has now been locked and binned as it was derailed to a huge extent. Factvalue, this is a warning for your rambling off topic posts. Everyone else, just try to take a step back and get some perspective.

Black Badger
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Aug 26 2015 13:25

I agree that the up/down system isn't particularly useful; regardless, I can't conceive of ups or downs being used to bully anyone. There's no threat implicit in a sign of approval or disapproval, or am I missing something?

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
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Aug 26 2015 14:02

I'm agnostic on this issue. They could stay or go, and I wouldn't care either way.

Hieronymous's picture
Hieronymous
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Aug 26 2015 14:09

I agree with what Chilli says.

Now to demonstrate, watch all the down votes I get.

Perhaps the admins can then tally up how many of them are coming from the same IP address.

Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
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Aug 26 2015 14:26

When I was new here my down votes would often come in very large numbers, well into the teens, but I never felt bullied or upset by it and can't conceive how anyone could.
Clearly, the voting system has become popularly used for different purposes to the guidelines so I say let's change the guidelines. The voting system provides an interesting insight into popular thoughts and feelings and I think Libcom would be worse without it.

Fall Back's picture
Fall Back
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Aug 26 2015 14:31

Chilli - sorry if I missed something, but I read your post a bunch times and can't see what you're saying beyond that people use down votes differently to how Steven said?

It's better than a bunch of contentless "i think this bad" posts, and I'm not sure what the benefit is in preventing people from expressing an opinion without having to write a post. Loads of people might have feelings on an issue and want to express support/disapproval without (for whatever reason) want to or feel able to write a post.

Fleur
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Aug 26 2015 14:38

I think the specific issue here is there's been a bunch of down votes on the Straight Outta Compton thread without a single person explaining why. In an ongoing discussion in which disagreement is going on anonymous downvoting is fine, imo, it's part of the discussion I suppose. But grow a fucking spine and say why you disagree with the post.

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Aug 26 2015 14:58
Fleur wrote:
I think the specific issue here is there's been a bunch of down votes on the Straight Outta Compton thread without a single person explaining why. In an ongoing discussion in which disagreement is going on anonymous downvoting is fine, imo, it's part of the discussion I suppose. But grow a fucking spine and say why you disagree with the post.

Or on this thread, why is my post down voted while others aren't?

On the Compton thread admins found some down voters "double dipping" from multiple handles. But here, what's the disagreement? There's nothing "rude, bullying, discriminatory," nor anything that breaches posting guidelines.

Flint
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Aug 26 2015 15:04

I'm for scrapping it. For awhile there, even strictly informative posts about anything related to Rojava were down voted by 3 to 4 users.

Hieronymous's picture
Hieronymous
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Aug 26 2015 16:13

On this thread, it was almost like down votes were used to bully syndicalist, which was painful to see since he was merely expressing reflections on his own experience:

http://libcom.org/forums/north-america/recollections-notes-reflections-w...

snipfool
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Aug 26 2015 15:47

put names to votes

jef costello's picture
jef costello
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Aug 26 2015 17:17

I think it can be nice to have, it's a way of giving your opinion without cluttering up a thread, especially if someone has said it better than you could.
On that thread I don't see that syndicalist has had too many down votes, maybe they've been deleted or people have upvoted in solidarity.
It's open to abuse, to an extent, if some nob keeps putting three down votes on a person then I'd hope they'd realise it's just someone being an arse and ignore it. MATB showed upvotes iirc, it didn't cause too many problems. If the votes aren't going to be visible then the admins should run some analytics on them to check they're not being abused. It could be largely automated with just a bit of oversight by mods, as long as programming is as easy as I'm assuming it is based on the fact that I can't do it smile

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Serge Forward
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Aug 26 2015 18:53

I like it. I don't do facebook or other social meejia, so I've got to get my up-down jollies one way or another grin

An Affirming Flame
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Aug 26 2015 18:59

I seriously think that some bored/vindictive person/people have created script bots that solely exist to automatically downvote all of Hieronymous's posts.

Noah Fence's picture
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Aug 26 2015 19:04

Well I'm jealous of Hieronymous - I've been actively fishing for down votes recently and have only had a handful of bites. Terribly dissapointing.

Fleur
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Aug 26 2015 19:10

There you go Webby, just down voted you.

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arminius
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Aug 26 2015 19:18

Just a question for those who agree with Steven and Chili's position (and I really am not fussed about the up/down question either way) - if the down vote was originally supposed to be used only for " users posting rude, bullying, discriminatory or other comments which breach our posting guidelines." then I don't understand exactly what the 'up' is supposed to mean?

Noah Fence's picture
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Aug 26 2015 19:32
Fleur wrote:
There you go Webby, just down voted you.

Gratitude is a wonderful emotion, thanks Fleur. Up voted.

Edit: 4 and counting. If I make double figures I'll post a rude joke to celebrate.

Fleur
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Aug 26 2015 19:39

Webby wrote:

Quote:
If I make double figures I'll post a rude joke to celebrate.

If it hits double figures I'll post up one of my horse meat recipes. grin

snipfool
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Aug 26 2015 19:57

having spent 20 minutes working out how much of a duck is arsehole for a single up-vote, I'm now ready to abolish voting.

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plasmatelly
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Aug 26 2015 20:23

Always been against as I see it the lazy way of challenging opinions. Wondering if this it plays a small part in the general downturn in posting?
Another point is, I don't think belligerent posters are remotely put off by a few downs.
Lastly, the up and down thing sometimes feels like a corralling of acceptable thought, something that anyone can pretend to have.
I preferred it when people said their bit and were supported or challenged accordingly - it's a real turn off seeing someone plough an hour or more into a post just to get two thumbs up and silence.

omen
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Aug 26 2015 20:32
plasmatelly wrote:
it's a real turn off seeing someone plough an hour or more into a post just to get two thumbs up and silence.

Even more annoying is when someone (I'm not naming names here) spends and hour or so drawing a stupid cartoon, and it gets five upvotes, then someone else spends 30 seconds with a meme generator and posts a picture of a cat with an unfunny caption and gets four upvotes. And I'm not just saying this because I'm bitter or anything...

petey
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Aug 26 2015 20:42
snipfool wrote:
how much of a duck is arsehole

a britishism, i'm going to guess

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Aug 26 2015 21:05

Come off it Omen, up votes to you are like gold coins to Scrooge McDuck - you swim about in a pool full of them.

Noah Fence's picture
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Aug 26 2015 21:15

15 down votes, aw man, I'm deeply moved. Rude joke it is then. Could do several funnier ones but typing on a phone requires a shorter joke.

So, as a player leaves a football club his mate signs up for them. The hook up a few months later and the first player asks the second how he's getting on at the club. Well, he says, it's ok but the manager keeps pulling me off at half time. Fucking hell, it's alright for some, his mate replies, all I ever got was a slice of orange!

I suspect I have more down votes in the post.

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Steven.
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Aug 26 2015 22:06

Just to say I've banned another down voting troll duplicate identity. And I see some people are taking the piss down voting lots of stuff on this thread.

Basically my description in the other thread I was a bit off. Down votes can be for things which people consider unhelpful or rude but which aren't serious enough to Report as breaches of site guidelines (although of course you can Down vote comments like that as well). Here is our original post about it:
https://libcom.org/blog/new-feature-vote-comments-updown-26022012

Our general thought has been that since introducing it the atmosphere on here has been considerably better, and we have stopped getting complaints about aggressive behaviour and bullying. So we think it's been pretty successful. However we appreciate some people don't like it, and some people have made interesting alternate suggestions so we will look into the technical feasibility of other options.

But just to reiterate my comment on the other thread that down voting is not to be done on every post of someone you don't like, and certainly not so you can register multiple identities to give multiple down votes to individuals. If the person who has done this twice now continues, we will also ban their main identity.

Also to reiterate the warning on the other thread: we know who you are, stop abusing the down vote function or you will get banned.

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
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Aug 27 2015 01:07
arminius wrote:
- if the down vote was originally supposed to be used only for " users posting rude, bullying, discriminatory or other comments which breach our posting guidelines." then I don't understand exactly what the 'up' is supposed to mean?

This is sort of the point I was making. Steven has clarified that the down votes are supposed to be used for more than breaches of posting guidelines - which is fair enough and it basically answers the criticism I was making.

Steven, while I appreciate what you're saying about the atmosphere improving, I don't personally think much of that can be attributed to up/down voting. At around the same time the system was introduced, a lot of posters left, discussion were had about the forum's culture, and the admins became more hands-on/ This also corresponded with a pretty significant drop in posting overall. I don't think that's from the up/down system, but one could just as easily argue that it is.

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
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Aug 27 2015 01:11

P.S. Webby, I just up-voted you out of spite.

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Aug 27 2015 07:24
Steven. wrote:
Our general thought has been that since introducing it the atmosphere on here has been considerably better, and we have stopped getting complaints about aggressive behaviour and bullying.

That's only because you didn't enable the third "you cock" option.

jef costello's picture
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Aug 27 2015 14:23
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Steven, while I appreciate what you're saying about the atmosphere improving, I don't personally think much of that can be attributed to up/down voting. At around the same time the system was introduced, a lot of posters left, discussion were had about the forum's culture, and the admins became more hands-on/ This also corresponded with a pretty significant drop in posting overall. I don't think that's from the up/down system, but one could just as easily argue that it is.

I don't think downvotes had anything to do with the atmosphere, closing libcommunity and stricter modding are mainly responsible for that.
Also there's been a massive drop in posting as people migrate to facebook twitter for the more chatty side.
With the drop in posting there's just less to react to so trolls aren't too interested and good posters who want fight/rant do it elsewhere.

But libcom's numbers on the whole seem to be going up, I do wonder how many new people are coming because there are fewer posts but there have always been lots more views than members and a lot more members than posts.

factvalue
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Aug 27 2015 14:46
Quote:
Perhaps the admins can then tally up how many of them are coming from the same IP address.

Quote:
If the person who has done this twice now continues, we will also ban their main identity.

Also to reiterate the warning on the other thread: we know who you are, stop abusing the down vote function or you will get banned.

Is 'up/down' so serious that it warrants this? Why should admins have access to people's IPs?

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