Anarchists have been removed from Raqqa (Rojava) for the promotion of LGBT

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meerov21
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Aug 10 2017 09:16
Anarchists have been removed from Raqqa (Rojava) for the promotion of LGBT

This is a puzzle

1. It is true that hundreds of Arab towns and villages of Syria have active local councils - the organs of self-government with elements of direct democracy. There are councils same in the Kurdish regions, but there they are under the control of the PYD. PYD do not build a stateless society on which Western anarchists say. In any case, I wish the Kurds and the Arabs development of the Autonomous municipalities in the spirit of radical libertarian communalism and collective ownership and Confederation.

2. There is NO way for LGBT-activity in Syria. With PYD (SDF, YPG) or without PYD-SDF-YPG that is not possible and it undermines anarchist positions there. If anarchists did such propaganda in Spain in 1936 or in Russia in 1921, they would also undermined own positions. Self-government of the Arabs and Kurds exists in small towns and villages. The population of these areas is open for cooperation: Kurds and Arabs, Shiites and Sunnis, Ismailis and Christians often cooperate in local councils. This is a huge accomplishment for the middle East. But the population will not discuss LGBT rights, stop it. You will not improve the situation of LGBT people in the present time, if you continue.

3. The anarchist movement in Western Europe and the USA prefer to be silent this incident: on the one hand for the part of anarchists LGBT is a trigger topic and anyone who criticizes the "requirement -of- LGBT" are "Nazis" in their opinion. On the other hand, according to many Euro-leftists to criticize the Kurdish movement is impossible, they are beyond criticism of the Euro-anarchists, like the Pope (some would criticize, but they are few). Because the thinking of Euro-anarchists and Euro-leftists and extremely tabuisierung: both as a trigger, they now have a stupor of cognitive dissonance. Holy spoke against the Holy! Who is right, Luther or the Pope? They are silent because they don't know something to say. And then everyone once again will go back to normal and they will pretend that nothing happened.

Here:
http://syria.liveuamap.com/en/2017/8-august-the-umbrella-ypgpkk-foreign-fighter-unit-says-irpgf
https://twitter.com/NWinourhearths/status/894119876842983424

el psy congroo
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Aug 10 2017 12:03

What a load of bullshit this all is. I'm not big on ID pol, but this is straight up heterosexism and homophobia.

Even if what's happening in Rojava was an actual and genuine revolutionary communist situation, which it's not, people have every prerogative to say and speak their opinions about anything and everything. The whole point of social revolution is to gain the ability to do this -- and loudly. For anyone to step in and be like "hush, you can't say this" is blatant authoritarianism and a betrayal of principle.

This crap is minimalism at it's worst. And for meerov to repeat and support these perspectives...wow.

Jim
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Aug 10 2017 13:11

Is this true? I've seen comrades with links to Rojava saying this is a lie.

Mike Harman
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Aug 10 2017 13:12
meerov21 wrote:
If anarchists did such propaganda in Spain in 1936 or in Russia in 1921, they would also undermined own positions.

Might be better to do some research on 1936 before making ahistorical points.

Lucia Sanchez Saornil was one of the leaders of the Mujeres Libres and was openly lesbian. She didn't write about sexuality much from what I can find, but https://libcom.org/library/question-feminism doesn't pull any punches on feminism.

http://sapphomanifesto.blogspot.co.uk/2006/06/revolutionary-of-week.html has a bit more.

Since you brought up Russia, this sounds like Lenin writing against free-love in 1915:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jan/17.htm

He also had lots to say against discussions of sexuality and feminism in Germany in 1920: https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1920/lenin/zetkin1.htm

radicalgraffiti
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Aug 10 2017 17:38

i remember you meerov21, you where complaining about people brining up the fascism in the Ukrainian maidan thing

el psy congroo
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Aug 10 2017 17:51
Jim wrote:
Is this true? I've seen comrades with links to Rojava saying this is a lie.

In my view, yes. I'd be willing to bet the reason for the mirror linked above, as well as the removal of the original tweet, is due to internal censorship. The Kurdish leadership does not need a PR blunder the likes of everyone finding out that there are major homophobic elements within Kurdish society today. It's just another mark on the list of shit that demonstrates ever so clearly the true authoritarian, State-building purpose of this effort. Rojava is the new Israel, seriously. You can absolutely forget anything ever to do with Catalonia, which of course was deeply flawed itself.

meerov21
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Aug 11 2017 14:05

"Lucia Sanchez Saornil was one of the leaders of the Mujeres Libres and was openly lesbian. "

This is OK. However, neither the Russian nor the Spanish anarchists did not raise LGBT on their flags. Try to think "why".

In politics and social movement there are always things that are a priority. If you start the promotion of LGBT in Russia or in a small town in the middle East among the workers and farmers, they will laugh, or decide that you're crazy. And you will not help gays this way. Separate Kurds who live in big cities, can be Pro-LGBT. But in Turkish, Arabic or Kurdish province this propaganda is (at the moment) unthinkable.

meerov21
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Aug 11 2017 14:06

If IRPGF is not kicket out from Raqqa then why, after many days, they have not denied this information? Also why Iberian Anarchist‏ who fights in Rojava said on tweetter after all: "Shame on @IRPGF for not coordinate propaganda with @DefenseUnits shame on @AntifaTabur for not keeping this as an internal issue." https://twitter.com/NWinourhearths/status/894119876842983424 What is "internal issue"?  

meerov21
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Aug 11 2017 14:07

I'm an anarchist, not a Marxist. I am a supporter of libertarian communalism and social revolution. But I'm not crazy and I realize that everything has its time and place. I am not a European anarchist. My friends, the anarchists of Egypt, Mexico, Palestine, Belarus do not understand some of you.

And one more thing. You call everyone who disagree with you "fascists", all people. But if You are so super - principled anarchists, why don't you criticize the party system of Rojava? Do you like political parties?

You know what I think? You either don't want to know anything about the party in Rojava reality, or you accept it today as part of a tactical compromise. If it is the first assumption then you have no mind at all. If it is the latter assumption, it can be normal for anarchists involved in real tactical combat (or not normal) but then why did you pose as ultra-principled anarchists in the issue of LGBT?

In my opinion, you are just interesting only the LGBT point...

Steven.'s picture
Steven.
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Aug 11 2017 16:38
meerov21 wrote:

And one more thing. You call everyone who disagree with you "fascists", all people.

No one here has done this, you are just lying.

If you think you have a good point to make, you shouldn't have to lie

meerov21
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Aug 11 2017 16:53

O realy?

"radicalgraffiti:i remember you meerov21, you where complaining about people brining up the fascism in the Ukrainian maidan thing"

If it's not a direct accusation of fascism, it is already close to him. And it reflects the style of a significant part of European and American anarchists.

meerov21
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Aug 11 2017 17:22

"radicalgraffiti:i remember you meerov21, you where complaining about people brining up the fascism in the Ukrainian maidan thing"

As Bakunin thinks I also think that anarchists can participate in any mass popular uprising against the state, whether Maidan, the movement against Gezi Park in Turkey or Saura in Syria. My friend a famous Russian anarchist and antifascist Alexei Sutuga ("Sokrat") thinks the same way and he participated in the uprising of Madan, and then spent 4 years in a Russian prison (on another charge). However, participating in the uprising of the lower classes or supporting it, you're not supposed to identify with its leaders and activists like nationalists, liberals and left-wing statists. You should go your libertarian way.

(Don't even talk to me about the moral questions, after you or other anarchists called their "comrades" tankys (Marxist-Leninists) present at Occupy-wall Street or anti-fascist battalion in Rojava.)

As for IRPGF they never criticized PYD party or party-sistem itself in Rojava, they called the Reds (Marxists-Leninists) of the international squads in Rojava as "comrades". Also IRPGF follows the direct orders of the leadership of the YPG on the battlefield. So is that pure anarchism without any compromises?

I understand that in a real fight, we always have to go in something on compromises. But it seems that for many here there is only the topic of LGBT, while compromises in other areas you don't want to see. And these compromises look very serious and do not indicate the libertarian line of IRPGF.

Fleur
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Aug 11 2017 17:39

Fuck Bakunin. This is 2017 and throwing marginalized people under the bus is not good revolutionary praxis.

Flint
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Aug 11 2017 17:50

PYD, YPG, etc... care far more about the support of the left in Turkey than they do the U.S. left (or probably even the "Western Left").

The guy unmasked in the photographs is the new International Freedom Battalion commander, Heval Mahir. He's from Turkey and with TİKKO. If someone isn't mentioning that, what else aren't they telling you? IRPGF talked about him in their other tweets about T-QILA and even posted some combat footage of him. Rojava TİKKO also spread the story.

This article in Turkish points out that Şehid Ivana Hoffmann, a black german woman volunteer with the MLKP was an "international homosexual warrior".
Rakka’da ilk silahlı LGBTİ+ özgürlük gücü kuruldu!, SALI, 25 TEMMUZ 2017

So TİKKO is full involved with this. The SDF and YPG certainly knows who the commander of the International Freedom Battalion is. As of August 9th, ANF News just published an interview with Mahir Bakır Cihan: 'Reqa'nın özgürleşmesi DAİŞ ve Erdoğan'ı bitirecek'. They didn't talk about LGBT or T-QILA, but they did talk about the ongoing fight in Raqqa. Mahir has been with the YPG since the battle of Kobane.

One interviewer asked the SDF Spokes about it shortly after the announcement of T-QILA. Mustafa Bali, the director of the Syrian Democratic Forces’ (SDF) Media Centre said: "We in the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF),while emphasizing our deep respect for human rights, including the rights of homosexuals, we deny the formation of such a battalion within the framework of our forces and we consider this news to be untrue."

So, he didn't know about it before the PR stunt, but when pushed to take a position said the SDF deeply respects the human rights of homosexuals. Any other militia of the size and scope in Syria saying that?

Of course, IRPGF is part of the International Freedom Battalion, and of course it is operating in Rojava under the banners of the YPG and the SDF. IRPGF even gives eulogies and leads funerals.

Pro-LGBT politics is part of the platform of the HDP in Turkey, with them standing several LGBT candidates for election.

Any attempt to try and understand this that doesn't talk about TİKKO's involvement is really ignoring what going on.

Flint
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Aug 11 2017 17:54
Steven. wrote:
meerov21 wrote:

And one more thing. You call everyone who disagree with you "fascists", all people.

No one here has done this, you are just lying.

If you think you have a good point to make, you shouldn't have to lie

meerov21 is just copypasta the same thing he is posting on Facebook and who knows where else.

meerov21
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Aug 12 2017 01:25

Fuck Bakunin.

Fuck the left. I followed many anarchists Greece, Brazil, Belarus, refuse to consider myself a leftist. I support libertarian communalism or Bakunin ideas but not the modern leftists I do not know who are the left? Bolsheviks, like MLKP (Marxist-Leninist Communist Party) , which will not stop until make in Turkey a couple of the famine and ethnic deportations, as the Bolsheviks did in my country?

Bolsheviks arrested my relatives in the early 1950's, and some people kiss on the mouth with the Bolsheviks and at the same time still dare to tell me about Bakunin or about morality or about LGBT.

"One interviewer asked the SDF Spokes about it shortly after the announcement of T-QILA. Mustafa Bali, the director of the Syrian Democratic Forces’ (SDF) Media Centre said: "We in the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF),while emphasizing our deep respect for human rights, including the rights of homosexuals, we deny the formation of such a battalion within the framework of our forces and we consider this news to be untrue."
So, he didn't know about it before the PR stunt, but when pushed to take a position said the SDF deeply respects the human rights of homosexuals. Any other militia of the size and scope in Syria saying that?"

And what does this all mean? Yes SDF rejected the creation of LGBT battalion. And Yes, They recognize the rights of gays and do not persecute them. So what?

radicalgraffiti
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Aug 12 2017 03:10

anyone who follows bakunin is not an anarchist

the Bolsheviks where anti communist counter revolutionaries, i am not sure why you bring them up?

the quote from the sdf guy is saying that there is no such battalion, that they are not aware of it and dont think it exists, they are not saying that they are opposed to the existadn of such a battalion or that they have expelled one.

i would be unsurprised if there was not conflict over lgbt isues in Rojava, i have read else where that it is not safe for lgbt people, this is not the same as giving up on lgbt issues

i am not sure what your purpose with this thread is, it seems like you are claiming that supporting freedom for lgbt people is counter revolutionary, that it makes those who support it ineffective or counter productive in revolution and that it should be dropped until after "the revolution", if that is not what you mean please elaborate

radicalgraffiti
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Aug 12 2017 03:12
meerov21 wrote:
O realy?

"radicalgraffiti:i remember you meerov21, you where complaining about people brining up the fascism in the Ukrainian maidan thing"

If it's not a direct accusation of fascism, it is already close to him. And it reflects the style of a significant part of European and American anarchists.

the more you post the more right wing you look, but how is that possible an accusation of fascism? i think your soft on it and willing to throw comrades under the bus for asthenic images of revolution

Fleur
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Aug 12 2017 16:10

You're not much of an anarchist if you follow the teachings of someone who died in 1876 and you're not willing to drag your ideology into the 21st century.

meerov21
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Aug 15 2017 03:18

radicalgraffiti

the quote from the sdf guy is saying that there is no such battalion, that they are not aware of it and dont think it exists, they are not saying that they are opposed to the existadn of such a battalion or that they have expelled one.

Oh, come on. wink 1) If so, why the SDF did not took it back, convinced that this battalion exist? 2) If the information that the anarchists were removed from the Raqqa by SDF leaders is fake, why there is no public denials from these anarchists from Raqqa?

the more you post the more right wing you look, but how is that possible an accusation of fascism? i think your soft on it and willing to throw comrades under the bus for asthenic images of revolution

Well, obviously, not a fascists hardcore, just soft fascist. "how is that possible an accusation of fascism? i think your soft on it" So where is this Steven? Did i lie? May be I am exaggerating, just a little bit, but i know the style of such people.

meerov21
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Aug 15 2017 03:20

radicalgraffiti
anyone who follows bakunin is not an anarchist

What??

meerov21
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Aug 15 2017 03:30

Fleur You're not much of an anarchist if you follow the teachings of someone who died in 1876 .

Just for to not be like you guys, only just for that.
Also did I say that i only follow the ideas of Bakunin? Or that all that Bakunin wrote was 100% true? Like I said, I'm also close to the ideas of libertarian communalism. However, I believe that libertarian communalism work in Mexico, work in some Arab areas of Syria, work much worse in the Kurdish areas, but it is quite a working idea... but just a lot of what was invented over the past 50 years by the anarchists and leftists in the U.S. and Europe should be thrown into the dustbin of history. It's not working. As said Murray Bookchin, the old left was part of the history of mankind, and you are an isolated island of history

However, I did not call anyone "throw comrades under the bus". I can only advise to read my post carefully.

bootsy
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Aug 15 2017 05:18

Regardless of the truth of the accusations posted here OP is a homophobe and fascist apologist who ought to be banned. Others have been banned for far less.