Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic?

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proletarian.
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May 1 2016 13:12
Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic?

The Big Questions - Series 9: Episode 15

Nicky Campbell presents the moral, ethical and religious discussion series live from Oasis Academy, Salford. Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic?

Features socialists Moshe Machover and Tony Greenstein.

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jondwhite
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May 1 2016 13:58

No, anti Zionism and anti Semitism are two different concepts. You can be anti Zionist without being anti Semitic.

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rat
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May 1 2016 16:31

Chomsky sums it up succinctly in this short video clip:

anti-Semitism or anti-Zionism

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May 1 2016 16:33

Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitic are not synonymous.
Being a Zionist and a Jew is not synonymous.
Many Jewish people are not Zionists.
There are a number of Zionists who are/were Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

Major-General Orde Charles Wingate was an interesting example of a Christian, who actively trained the Haganah (a Jewish/Zionist armed group).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orde_Wingate

EDIT
This is interesting on utube:

Noam Chomsky : the historical origins of Christian Zionism

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May 1 2016 16:52

No, they're not the same, but hang around anti-zionist circles long enough and it won't be long before you meet an anti-semite. Conversely, not all zionists are anti-palestinian, anti-arab, anti-muslim chauvinists. The progressive zionists are the leftish and liberal wing.

Sleeper
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May 1 2016 18:27

No gods, No masters.

It's really not rocket science now is it?

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Khawaga
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May 1 2016 18:30

Yet another vapid comment by Sleeper.

admin: please address arguments all points rather than insulting individuals

Sleeper
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May 1 2016 18:35

Or maybe it is difficult for some...

Khawaga wrote:
Yet another vapid comment by Sleeper.

Fleur
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May 1 2016 18:43

No gods, No masters.

So go ahead and explain exactly what you mean by parroting this slogan in a discussion which pretty much boils down to racism.

*Pet peeve: people who think they are actually contributing to a discussion by trotting out some kind of cliché or slogan in lieu of any kind of argument.

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Noah Fence
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May 1 2016 18:54

So, is everyone's favourite newt fancier, Red Ken, an anti Semite or a racist based on his recent comments?

Sleeper
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May 1 2016 19:01

"Ni dieu ni maître!"

ajjohnstone
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May 1 2016 19:10

Ooops posted on the wrong thread but anyways, might as well repeat the link here

http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2016/04/socialism-v-zionism...

As i said on the other thread - Zionism required anti-Semitism to flourish and were willing to co-operate with anti-Semites to further their aims.

The title of this thread could easily be "Is Zionism anti-Semitic?"

Sleeper
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May 1 2016 19:26

Fleur wrote:
No gods, No masters.

So go ahead and explain exactly what you mean by parroting this slogan in a discussion which pretty much boils down to racism.

*Pet peeve: people who think they are actually contributing to a discussion by trotting out some kind of cliché or slogan in lieu of any kind of argument.

S. Artesian
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May 1 2016 22:10
Serge Forward wrote:
No, they're not the same, but hang around anti-zionist circles long enough and it won't be long before you meet an anti-semite. Conversely, not all zionists are anti-palestinian, anti-arab, anti-muslim chauvinists. The progressive zionists are the leftish and liberal wing.

Well, since Arabic people are part of the category "semite," hang around zionist circles long enough and it won't be long before you meet an anti-semite.

syndicalist
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May 1 2016 23:22

I'm Jewish but not a Zionist. It when some make stupid remarks about Jewish this and Jewish that which changes the dynamic. Also, not every Israeli Jew is a racist or nationalist. The lines are funny in some places. So a lot of times it's when you get into conversation or discussion you realize if someone is an antisemite, uninformed or really antizionist

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May 2 2016 01:43
Quote:
Pet peeve: people who think they are actually contributing to a discussion by trotting out some kind of cliché or slogan in lieu of any kind of argument.

That must make Sleeper your nemisis, anti thesis or Bizarro-Fleur, or something.

fidel gastro
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May 2 2016 08:24
Noah Fence wrote:
So, is everyone's favourite newt fancier, Red Ken, an anti Semite or a racist based on his recent comments?

Who knows? He might be but I don't think what he actually said was racist. As for Naz Shah, she probably went too far but I'm not sure if it was racist. Also I can't help but think that there was some truth in what she said. Alot of Israeli settlers are originally from America and there is alot of space in America- those are facts. I guess her going too far is saying that all Israelis should be shipped off to America but when you think about it- they did drive the Palestinians off their land and kill alot of them- so is that anti-semitic/racist aswell? Surely it is. It's certainly very messed up.
I would like to see Israelis and Palestinians sharing the land there and living in peace, obviously, but that doesn't look like thats going to happen- certainly if things continue as they are, with the Israeli government refusing to negotiate with the Palestinians and refusing to accept their right to a proper state/share of the land and with the Palestinians' insistence on armed struggle as a way of fighting back, which isn't working and can't possibly work against the overwhelming might of the US backed Israeli military. I'd like to see both sides reject religious fundamentalism, terrorism and right-wing bullshit and nationalism.

Hope everyone had a nice May Day by the way. I notice there is no May Day thread.

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May 2 2016 12:33
S. Artesian wrote:
Well, since Arabic people are part of the category "semite," hang around zionist circles long enough and it won't be long before you meet an anti-semite.

Not sure this is what S. Artesian is doing (and I don't think he's an anti-semite) but whenever I hear this argument it's almost always in the context of minimising or excusing anti-semitism (against Jews). So someone takes issue with supporting anti-semitic anti-Israel groups or anti-semitic language and anti-zionists will say "well, Palestinians are also semites and Israel is anti-Palestinian so they're THE REAL anti-semites".. that's just using semantics to say that anti-Jewish racism isn't important..

And I think that Serge's point about anti-semitism in the anti-zionist movement is kind of true.. not in the goose-stepping skinhead sense but just in the kind of language and arguments that are fairly mainstream within it i.e. the new NUS leaders (who I also DON'T think is an anti-semite) talking about the "Zionist-led media" or when people talk about how US middle-east policy is controlled by the "powerful Israel lobby" as if American policy is somehow working against its own interests by supporting Israel..

That said, anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are NOT the same, even if a lot of Jews do genuinely experience the former as the latter. Re Ken Livingstone: I really don't get what people are getting so huffy about. Apart from awful phrasing about Hitler "going mad" at some point in the early 1940s, I really don't get what's anti-semitic about his comments..

As a last kind of side issue, I was chatting to someone about this yesterday: do Jews count as BME (Black and Minority Ethnic)? Dunno if maybe this needs a separate thread..

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May 2 2016 13:50
Ed wrote:
Not sure this is what S. Artesian is doing (and I don't think he's an anti-semite) but whenever I hear this argument it's almost always in the context of minimising or excusing anti-semitism (against Jews). So someone takes issue with supporting anti-semitic anti-Israel groups or anti-semitic language and anti-zionists will say "well, Palestinians are also semites and Israel is anti-Palestinian so they're THE REAL anti-semites".. that's just using semantics to say that anti-Jewish racism isn't important

100% this, and also it's factually totally wrong. From inception the term antisemitism has always and exclusively meant anti-Jewish prejudice - the root of the term is basically irrelevant.

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jef costello
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May 2 2016 14:27

The root of the term is stupid anyway as it comes from the fact they are descendants of Shem rather than Ham.

ajjohnstone
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May 2 2016 15:09

I'm curious to the proposition about Palestinians in their demands for either two-state or one-state.

As Fidel in message #17 suggests the idea that Palestinians can militarily prevail is fantasy.

The two-state is an acceptance of "bantu-stans" - disjointed enclaves of Palestinian-controlled territory that as an independent sovereign nation will simply not be viable.

Israel fully annexed East Jerusalem and now declare Golan Heights as non-returnable. Why not demand the whole West Bank and Gaza Strip as "Greater Israel", as many extremist Zionists insist and instead of a nationalist movement, Palestinians now campaign in a civil rights movement for full recognition as Israelis. Imagine protests of Palestinians demanding to be Israeli citizens, sit-down demonstrations for Israeli passports. How can there be usual counter-arguments be that they will not recognise Israel. Palestinians become de facto Zionists.

How would this impact on world opinion and affect the mainstream media narrative?

Diplomatically it will distance the stance of Iran who maintain they support what the Palestinian seek but are really in a regional struggle for dominance. Hence, the Iranian support for the existence of Hezbollah who declare they are in a fight as a national liberation movement to evict Israeli occupation of the tiny territory of Sheba Farms, a little patch of land scarcely worth the sacrifice of blood and easily ceded. It is a few square miles that Syria says is theirs anyway and not Lebanese.

But it would mean that the estrangement of the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon and elsewhere who would have to now struggle for full citizenship in the countries they live in for near-on 50- 70 years.

I'm just raising this as a topic for others to educate me and show all the mistakes in such a view. It is just a talking point.

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May 2 2016 20:17
Fall Back wrote:
Ed wrote:
Not sure this is what S. Artesian is doing (and I don't think he's an anti-semite) but whenever I hear this argument it's almost always in the context of minimising or excusing anti-semitism (against Jews). So someone takes issue with supporting anti-semitic anti-Israel groups or anti-semitic language and anti-zionists will say "well, Palestinians are also semites and Israel is anti-Palestinian so they're THE REAL anti-semites".. that's just using semantics to say that anti-Jewish racism isn't important

100% this, and also it's factually totally wrong. From inception the term antisemitism has always and exclusively meant anti-Jewish prejudice - the root of the term is basically irrelevant.

Yeah, those sort of linguistic ballgames are annoying as shit.

My right wing relatives have told me on more than one occasion that...

1) National socialism - see fascism is the same thing as socialism.
2) I can't be a homophobe, because "phobia" means fear and I'm not afraid of gay people.
3) And that the n-word really just means "ignorant".

syndicalist
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May 2 2016 21:00
syndicalist wrote:
I'm Jewish but not a Zionist. It when some make stupid remarks about Jewish this and Jewish that which changes the dynamic. Also, not every Israeli Jew is a racist or nationalist. The lines are funny in some places. So a lot of times it's when you get into conversation or discussion you realize if someone is an antisemite, uninformed or really antizionist

I'm curious if the person who downed my reply would like to engage, I'd be happy to go so

S. Artesian
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May 2 2016 22:32
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Not sure this is what S. Artesian is doing (and I don't think he's an anti-semite) but whenever I hear this argument it's almost always in the context of minimising or excusing anti-semitism (against Jews).

What I'm doing is a) not making any argument b) simply trying to point out the nonsense that says "hang around anti-zionist circles long enough, and you'll run into an anti-semite."

No shit. Hang around anything long enough and you'll run into an anti-semite. Hang around zionist circles long enough and you'll run into anti-semitic pro-zionist... That's where the word games are and are being played.

The issue is, is one-- anti-Jewish-- inherent in, essential to, part of, anti-zionism. And the answer is clearly "no."

There's no moral quandary about being anti-zionist, no matter how desperately Jewish zionists want anti-zionism to be conflated with anti-semitism.

It's a class issue, like being anti-apartheid, being anti-colonialist, being anti-pied-noir, anti-settler states were class issues.

radicalgraffiti
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May 2 2016 23:51
S. Artesian wrote:
Quote:
Not sure this is what S. Artesian is doing (and I don't think he's an anti-semite) but whenever I hear this argument it's almost always in the context of minimising or excusing anti-semitism (against Jews).

What I'm doing is a) not making any argument b) simply trying to point out the nonsense that says "hang around anti-zionist circles long enough, and you'll run into an anti-semite."

No shit. Hang around anything long enough and you'll run into an anti-semite. Hang around zionist circles long enough and you'll run into anti-semitic pro-zionist... That's where the word games are and are being played.

The issue is, is one-- anti-Jewish-- inherent in, essential to, part of, anti-zionism. And the answer is clearly "no."

There's no moral quandary about being anti-zionist, no matter how desperately Jewish zionists want anti-zionism to be conflated with anti-semitism.

It's a class issue, like being anti-apartheid, being anti-colonialist, being anti-pied-noir, anti-settler states were class issues.

theres noticeably more anti-semites in anti-zionism than elsewhere and when anti-semitism by anti zionists is pointed out the general response is defend anti zionism not to confront the anti-semitism

S. Artesian
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May 3 2016 01:11
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theres noticeably more anti-semites in anti-zionism than elsewhere and when anti-semitism by anti zionists is pointed out the general response is defend anti zionism not to confront the anti-semitism

Those are assertions that really requires qualification and quantification. How are you measuring? What are you measuring? Got any fries to go with that shake?

I thought the issue was if opposing the existence of the Zionist state is intrinsically anti-Jewish?

That was the OP, right? Do all agree that there is no anti-semitism inherent in opposing Zionism?

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May 3 2016 06:29

Zionism is anti-Semitism.

https://libcom.org/library/worldwide-intifada-issue-1-summer-1992-price-...

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May 3 2016 07:14

Schmoopie #27

Please explain.

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May 3 2016 09:04
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Do all agree that there is no anti-semitism inherent in opposing Zionism?

Depends who's doing the anti-Zionism surely? I'm anti-Zionist much as I'm opposed to all nationalism but I'm suspicious of those with their own nationalist ideas yet who single out Zionism for special treatment. By the way, do you not find it suspicious when people start to racially classify who is and isn't semitic and go on about Arabs being semites too? After all, whatever the etymology of the word semite, 'anti-semitism' is not commonly used to mean anti Jewish and anti arab racism. Also, do you not think that the term 'anti-Zionism' is sometimes just used as a code for anti-jewish?

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May 3 2016 13:23
S. Artesian wrote:
Do all agree that there is no anti-semitism inherent in opposing Zionism?

Yeah, I think it's important to say we all agree on this point: opposing Israel as a settler project is not the same as hating Jews (or even saying Jews can't live in the region).

At the same time, there is a tendency for anti-Zionism to blur into anti-semitism, to use anti-semitic language ('Zionist-led media'), imagery and, let's be honest, to support anti-semitic groups (who else remembers "We are all Hamas"?)..

Given this, I don't think radicalgraffiti's point about anti-Zionist circles having more anti-Semites than most others is that outlandish. Maybe not in the sense of having lots of straight up Jew-haters but in terms of using a lot anti-Semitic motifs, definitely (and obviously in supporting, however 'critically', groups like Hamas and Hezbollah). Moreover, as radicalgraffiti mentioned, if you point any of this out, there is a tendency to defend anti-Zionism rather than confront anti-semitism, often using that argument you mentioned (whether you were 'making' it or not is unimportant here) that 'Arabs are semites too'..

So while i think you're right to say there's no moral quandry in being anti-Zionist per se, there are issues within anti-Zionism that need to be confronted and doing so is also a class issue..

S. Artesian
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May 3 2016 13:35
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Depends who's doing the anti-Zionism surely

Then the answer to the original question is "no,"-- if it depends on the "who"-- then it is not intrinsic to the "thing" itself.

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I'm suspicious of those with their own nationalist ideas yet who single out Zionism for special treatment.

What exactly does that mean? Are you "suspicious" of Palestinians who "single out" Zionism for special treatment?

Quote:
By the way, do you not find it suspicious when people start to racially classify who is and isn't semitic and go on about Arabs being semites too?

No. I think it's basically irrelevant. "Suspicion" isn't anything I devote much time to. If you think opposition to the policies, programs, economics, social structure, existence of a particular "settler state" is intrinsically racist vis-a-vis the settlers, then just say so.

Quote:
Also, do you not think that the term 'anti-Zionism' is sometimes just used as a code for anti-jewish?

I think it's irrelevant what a term is "sometimes" just used for. What matters are the social relations, the material reality, driving a conflict. The social relations, the material reality, behind Zionism are those of dispossession, expulsion, segregation, impoverishment, discrimination. Anti-Zionism originates in the opposition to those conditions.

You might as well be arguing that the Watts Rebellion in the US in 1965 was "suspicious" because of the role the Nation of Islam played and its designation of whites as blue-eyed devils, and because of the anti-Jewish sentiments and actions of some of those in rebellion.