Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic?

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S. Artesian
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Jul 4 2016 20:26
AndrewX wrote:
So, according to Artesian, the Cubano government is justified because it replaced the repressive government of Batista. I'm not arguing that. In fact I agree with it. Choices are made, meaning that more progressive choice is the better one. Applying this argument to Israel, before its creation it was a colony or Rome, then the Ottomans, then the British, all of which were colonizers and repressive in varying degrees to the local population. So in comes Israel which is opposed by the Arab League because they don't want a Jewish state in the midst of what they consider their sphere, their goal of an Arab dominated Middle East. These Arab states were without exception undemocratic, repressive states. So I go with Israel just like you go with Cuba.

I don't "justify" the Cuban government; I explain, and support the historical process of the Cuban Revolution, more than a technical difference. I recognize that the Cuban revolution was the response to a police state that deprived the majority of the population of safe drinking water, access to medicine, education, sanitation, literacy in order to preserve the accumulation of value by a small minority, and accumulation by the US bourgeoisie.

This is not about making "choices," as if the Palestinians "chose" to leave Palestine when the state of Israel was declared, rather than being compelled to leave; forced to endure expropriation of property; threatened with loss of life and livelihood.

You asked a bunch of self-serving rhetorical questions-- and I provided historically accurate corrections to your nonsense. Now all of a sudden you drop that-- is Israel just like South Africa? You fucking-A bet it is. Now you don't want to deal what's been done in the West Bank; what's been done to Gaza. Now you don't want to grapple with the division of the West Bank into territories with the original residents restricted to the least viable. Now you don't want to deal with any of that because your self-serving abstractions have been exposed to be the pile of shit they are.

Now we get a different self-serving history; how Palestine once upon a time was a Roman colony, and Ottoman possession, a British protectorate, and how all of that was repressive. Yeah, and so what?

The issue isn't Rome or London or Instanbul. The issue isn't what the "Arab League" wants or doesn't want. The issue is what it took to create your "progressive, socialist, democratic, equal rights granting" Israel. It took terrorism, warfare, against a resident population in order to expel them and seize the property and territory left behind. It took those things, and it continues to take them. So yeah, Israel is precisely that product of European colonialism, and does not stand as an antithesis of the Arab league; the antithesis of "intolerance," of inequality, of dictatorship. Israel stands as the product of dispossession of a resident population; and continued oppression, aggrandizement, and, IMO, war crimes. Anybody who thinks not has never ever seen what white phosphorous does to the human body.

Short version AndrewX: Fuck you and that IDF issue donkey you rode in on.

AndrewX
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Jul 4 2016 20:27

Yes Khawaga, Israel repressed its enemies just like every state has done, does, and will do throughout history. Otherwise they don't survive. You can argue that states in general should then not exist, which I think you did previously, but to single out Israel is unfair, and frankly, racist (anti-semitic i.e., anit-Jewish).

factvalue
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Jul 4 2016 20:36
Khawaga wrote:
It's going to be fun watching Artesian rip you a new one.

Sure he needed one anyway:

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But you can still take your megaphone desktop tool and shove it up your ass

.

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Khawaga
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Jul 4 2016 20:36
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Yes Khawaga, Israel repressed its enemies just like every state has done, does, and will do throughout history. Otherwise they don't survive. You can argue that states in general should then not exist, which I think you did previously, but to single out Israel is unfair, and frankly, racist (anti-semitic i.e., anit-Jewish).

On this we completely agree. Well but for calling indigenous people "enemies".

Just earlier I wrote

Quote:
Yes, Zionism is fucking bad because all forms of nationalism is bad. Anarchist don't oppose the state of Israel because it's an exceptional evil but because it is a violent, racist state like any other.

So you supposed "gotcha" about singling out Israel completely misses the point. And, in fact, if you'd bothered just a bit to read what people on this site write about Israel, you'd find that the majority consensus is that singling out Israel among all other states is racist because what Israel is doing now is something that almost all states have done and continue to do.

Do you really think you're the first of your megaphone using kind that's come on this site? And do you really think we've not heard all of your arguments before? You nationalists are all the fucking same and say the same.

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Khawaga
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Jul 4 2016 20:37
factvalue wrote:
Khawaga wrote:
It's going to be fun watching Artesian rip you a new one.
Sure he needed one anyway:

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But you can still take your megaphone desktop tool and shove it up your ass

ZING! That made me actually lol.

factvalue
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Jul 4 2016 20:41

As did that megaphone craic, why Khawag, I didn't know you had such a pithy style to you, I like that, o yes!

AndrewX
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Jul 4 2016 20:51

Khawage: "It's going to be fun watching Artesian rip you a new one.....You nationalists are all the fucking same and say the same." This thread is about nationalism? I thought it was about Zionism. I'll wait to see what Artesian has to write. He appears to be more rational and intelligent and avoids anal references. You sound like you spent a lot of time in lockup and enjoyed every anal minute of it.

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Khawaga
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Jul 4 2016 20:52

Craic? Are you a Geordie? And yes, I am not known for being pithy. On that we are quite alike.

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Khawaga
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Jul 4 2016 20:56
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This thread is about nationalism? I thought it was about Zionism.

You do know that Zionism is just a particular word for Israeli nationalism, right? I mean Zionism as a movement emerged together with all kinds of nationalist movements (although granted it wasn't at first Israeli nationalism, but became so later). In any case, this thread was about anti-semitism.

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You sound like you spent a lot of time in lockup and enjoyed every anal minute of it.

Great and now the nationalist makes rape jokes and homophobic slurs. Colour me surprised.

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jesuithitsquad
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Jul 4 2016 21:47

hey factvalue- your strawman showed up on the thread after all!

factvalue
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Jul 4 2016 21:59
Khawaga wrote:
Craic? Are you a Geordie? And yes, I am not known for being pithy. On that we are quite alike.

No, Irish, craic = crack. I hope you didn't take it as a criticism or back-handed compliment, your megaphone comment made me giggle quite a bit is all. Anyway, back to the tabloid buffoonery of our new nationalist.

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Khawaga
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Jul 4 2016 22:04

Ah, no offence taken at all. And didn't know craic was irish, then again my familiarity with that term is from watching Geordie Shore.

S. Artesian
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Jul 4 2016 22:27
AndrewX wrote:
Khawage: "It's going to be fun watching Artesian rip you a new one.....You nationalists are all the fucking same and say the same." This thread is about nationalism? I thought it was about Zionism. I'll wait to see what Artesian has to write. He appears to be more rational and intelligent and avoids anal references. You sound like you spent a lot of time in lockup and enjoyed every anal minute of it.

In case you missed it, it's in post 392 above. Take your little homage to "freedom loving, democratic Israel" and send it to those freedom-loving democratic souls in the Israel government who advocate driving the Palestinians from Gaza into the desert, and penning them there until the government can decide what's to be done with them.

And above the entrance to the detention camps, in Hebrew, will be inscribed "Arbeit Macht Frei."

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Serge Forward
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Jul 4 2016 22:43
S. Artesian wrote:
And above the entrance to the detention camps, in Hebrew, will be inscribed "Arbeit Macht Frei."

And you were doing so well until you had to go and spoil it with your Israel/Nazi analogy. Fucking rubbish that.

factvalue
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Jul 4 2016 22:49

Come on now Serge, if the Israeli's are going to just keep on playing the holocaust card while they're doing all this then, you know?

factvalue
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Jul 4 2016 23:03

But jesuithitman, which of the straw men on your list did you mean? Did you mean the one where I ramble on endlessly about some old bollocks concerning the propaganda of entities like the ADL influencing debate about anti-Semitism, as in post 332:

factvalue wrote:
I was referring, as I have been for a while now, to the propaganda of entities such as the ADL. I think such propaganda influences discussions like these and opinions such as Alf's.

sure could you not forgive me exaggerating a wee bit just to make a point, come on, play fair...or no...wait a minute, didn't someone, I think it was Malva or someone...didn't Malva explicitly wheel out some 'figures' produced by this notorious, despicable, repellent, corrupt organisation in post 92:

Malva wrote:
If we were all blessed with a research grant and years of experience to carry out a quantitative sociological study on the extent of antisemitism on the left maybe that would be a reasonable demand. Unfortunately, such research does not exist and we have to rely on analysing the statements that we come across in our own experience. However, there are studies of the general population carried out by the ADL: http://global100.adl.org/ It reveals some shocking facts.

- 'facts', that's a good one. But I won't go on about it and risk annoying you, S. Artesian dealt pretty thoroughly with it in post 96 (you should read the thread some time if you're going to join in like).

Or maybe this isn't the pile of straw you'd been thinking of. Perhaps you meant that one where I was chundering on about peaks in anti-Semitism having something to do with IDF massacres (fuck me, now if that's not delusional I don't know what is, what a complete fantasist I must be, wtf eh?), you know, the one that Ed had been wanting me to produce evidence for in post 248:

Ed wrote:
As an interesting aside, I think factvalue's point about "genuine anti-semitism" rising alongside massacre by the state of Israel is a fair assumption (though obv needs verifying with stats). I would agree that much anti-semitism is driven these days by the very real atrocities committed by Israel.

only to go silent when I did (from Tel Aviv University and the CST for example – sorry if I'm going on a bit, maybe you could take a break at this point and stare out of a window, I know you don't like to get into detail and get bogged down in a lot old words 'n' stuff). The weird thing about that one is how it was already contained in Ed's post 72, while he was discussing the effect of the 'We are all Hamas' slogan:

Ed wrote:
while it has basically fuck all effect whether Westerners sloganeer "We are all Hamas" on what happens in Israel/Palestine it does have an effect on how acceptable people think anti-semitism generally and so opens the door for anti-semitic acts towards Jews in the West (and I'm thinking of how many anti-semitic incidents are motivated by pro-Palestine sympathy).

I mean, sewing the arms and legs on our Mr Straw just a little, would a massacre by the IDF issue in absolutely zero pro-Palestine sympathy or something? D'you reckon?

But no, you're right, we should keep all patrols on heightened Straw Alert until further notice. How's it going over at Anarchist News International btw?

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Khawaga
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Jul 4 2016 23:03
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But jesuithitman, which of the straw men on your list did you mean?

I think the straw man jesuithitman is referring to is none other than AndrewX. Our jesuit was making a joke... I think.

factvalue
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Jul 4 2016 23:07
Khawaga wrote:
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But jesuithitman, which of the straw men on your list did you mean?

I think the straw man jesuithitman is referring to is none other than AndrewX. Our jesuit was making a joke... I think.

Fuck me, I wasn't expecting that.

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Serge Forward
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Jul 4 2016 23:08
factvalue wrote:
Come on now Serge, if the Israeli's are going to just keep on playing the holocaust card while they're doing all this then, you know?

The title of this thread is Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic? Of course, the answer is, it depends. But your use of terms like 'playing the holocaust card', your repeatedly banging on about 'the holocaust industry' and your 'Jew this and Jew that' earlier in the thread tells me all I need to know. Your anti-zionism has clearly drifted into anti-semitism. I'm amazed you've been tolerated on here for so long.

S. Artesian
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Jul 4 2016 23:14
Serge Forward wrote:
S. Artesian wrote:
And above the entrance to the detention camps, in Hebrew, will be inscribed "Arbeit Macht Frei."

And you were doing so well until you had to go and spoil it with your Israel/Nazi analogy. Fucking rubbish that.

Except Serge, Moishe Feiglin, deputy-speaker of the Israeli Knesset did actually advocate precisely that-- removing all the Palestinians in Gaza to camps in the desert, until the Israeli government could decide what's to be done with them.

If that isn't analogous to Nazi ideology, if that doesn't just scream out "Arbeit Macht Frei"--well, it does to me.

And there's more than just that: Now the Knesset is considering deporting the families of those killed by the IDF, or the Israel police, for "anti-Israel" activities from the West Bank and to Gaza: see here

So if the Nazi analogy is "rubbish," would the "strategic hamlet" analogy be more apt? Or maybe the concentration of the Cuban civilian population in camps during the revolutionary war against Spain?

factvalue
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Jul 4 2016 23:15

SF, I really don't understand how you can think this, or is it just straightforward smear? You said previously that you were familiar with Finkelstein - these are his phrases. Is HE anti-Semitic in your view?

It looks very much like we've nothing more to say to each other on the matter because I can only surmise that your own prejudice is influencing your position. Good luck to you!

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Serge Forward
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Jul 4 2016 23:19

S. Artesian, I know what Zionism is all about and you don't need to convince me of how shit it is and what vileness its adherents are capable of. But by equating it with the inscription on the gates at Auschwitz is using an anti-semitic trope.

AndrewX
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Jul 5 2016 00:05

Artesian I don't "justify" the Cuban government; I explain, and support the historical process of the Cuban Revolution, more than a technical difference. I recognize that the Cuban revolution was the response to a police state that deprived the majority of the population of safe drinking water, access to medicine, education, sanitation, literacy in order to preserve the accumulation of value by a small minority, and accumulation by the US bourgeoisie.

You don't justify the Cuban government but you "explain" the circumstances for its creation and you "support" it. Good. So why can't you apply the same standards to Israel?
[/b]
This is not about making "choices," as if the Palestinians "chose" to leave Palestine when the state of Israel was declared, rather than being compelled to leave; forced to endure expropriation of property; threatened with loss of life and livelihood.

The Cubans were fighting Batista's army. They then were fighting terrorists, enemies from within...the revolution forcible took control of property and expelled landowners in order to incorporate those properties into state control. Many people lost their lives, lost their properties. Some innocent. Some not. During the Israel War of Independence similar things happened. It was a war and most Arabs were not sympathetic to the Jewish state. One big difference between Cuba and Israel is that the US doesn't accept Palestinians are political refugees. If all the Cubans who left Cuba were rounded up into camps in a swamp in Florida, there would be a lot more sympathy for them. But fortunately for them, they got citizenship.

You asked a bunch of self-serving rhetorical questions-- and I provided historically accurate corrections to your nonsense. Now all of a sudden you drop that-- is Israel just like South Africa? You fucking-A bet it is. Now you don't want to deal what's been done in the West Bank; what's been done to Gaza. Now you don't want to grapple with the division of the West Bank into territories with the original residents restricted to the least viable. Now you don't want to deal with any of that because your self-serving abstractions have been exposed to be the pile of shit they are.

The West Bank was controlled by Jordan for some 19 years. How come Jordan isn't criticized for not granting a state to the Palestinians? Then Jordan attacked, lost it to Israel, and ceded it to Israel. Sounds straight forward enough. Gaza was ceded back to Palestinian control in 2005 and now Hamas uses it to launch attacks into Israel. Great way to encourage Israel to cooperate with the Palestinians.

Now we get a different self-serving history; how Palestine once upon a time was a Roman colony, and Ottoman possession, a British protectorate, and how all of that was repressive. Yeah, and so what?
It's about choices. Cubans threw out Batista. Israel through out the British and the Arab League. I wonder how many Syrians living in the Golan Heights want to become part of Syria right now. Yes, it is about choices.

The issue isn't Rome or London or Instanbul. The issue isn't what the "Arab League" wants or doesn't want. The issue is what it took to create your "progressive, socialist, democratic, equal rights granting" Israel. It took terrorism, warfare, against a resident population in order to expel them and seize the property and territory left behind. It took those things, and it continues to take them. So yeah, Israel is precisely that product of European colonialism, and does not stand as an antithesis of the Arab league; the antithesis of "intolerance," of inequality, of dictatorship. Israel stands as the product of dispossession of a resident population; and continued oppression, aggrandizement, and, IMO, war crimes. Anybody who thinks not has never ever seen what white phosphorous does to the human body.

Name me a state in the world that didn't require terrorism and warfare to create it. Israel was more than willing to abide by the UN vote to partition Palestine peacefully. That didn't happen. No, the IDF is not made up of choir boys, or in this case yeshiva boys. Neither are Palestinian suicide bombers, knife wielders, ...

Short version AndrewX: Fuck you and that IDF issue donkey you rode in on

If you want to fuck my donkey, go for it. Better yet, go join Hamas. They would love to strap you up with a few pounds of C4 and drop you into a cafe in Tel Aviv. It's idiots like you which make the left irrational, unable to see where progress can be made.

S. Artesian
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Jul 5 2016 00:36
Serge Forward wrote:
S. Artesian, I know what Zionism is all about and you don't need to convince me of how shit it is and what vileness its adherents are capable of. But by equating it with the inscription on the gates at Auschwitz is using an anti-semitic trope.

Sorry, Serge. If you think identifying a policy of deportation, collective punishment, and a call for concentration camps as Nazi-like is using an antisemitic trope, then you need explain how such a trope, a "misdirection" has been used in the past to discriminate against Jews.

Can you show that? I don't think so, because a) I haven't misidentified, or distorted, a thing. I have pointed out how precisely analogous Israeli policies to policies used by the Nazis b) where has any such identification ever been used to discriminate against Jews?

Your objection really doesn't hold any water, and is, in fact an attempt to identify something as a "trope" in order to avoid dealing with the real content.

How is the advocacy of concentration camps by Israelis for the incarceration of Palestinians different from the Nazi advocacy of concentration camps for the incarceration of Jews?

Think what you like, but I'm really not going to engage with someone who howls "antisemitism" when somebody points out how Israeli treatment the Palestinians parallels, and converges, with the Nazi treatment of Jews.

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Khawaga
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Jul 5 2016 00:37

Blablabla, more justifications for Israel based on how bad other states are. It's really the worst argument for the existence of any state. You should try a lot harder.

And also, most of us don't consider us to be part of the left; one of the reasons for that is the left's naïve cheerleading of national liberation groups like Hamas. But in any case, you're not a Lettie what with your homophobia and rape culture jokes. You're just a Zionist troll.

S. Artesian
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Jul 5 2016 00:46
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You don't justify the Cuban government but you "explain" the circumstances for its creation and you "support" it. Good. So why can't you apply the same standards to Israel?

Because the Cuban Revolution involved class struggle, and the attempt to overthrow a brutalizing, corrupt, capitalist regime that was an appendage of international capitalism.

The establishment of Israel established a brutalizing, corrupt, capitalist regime as an appendage of international capitalism through the forced expropriation and expulsion of a resident population.

Quote:
The West Bank was controlled by Jordan for some 19 years. How come Jordan isn't criticized for not granting a state to the Palestinians? Then Jordan attacked, lost it to Israel, and ceded it to Israel. Sounds straight forward enough. Gaza was ceded back to Palestinian control in 2005 and now Hamas uses it to launch attacks into Israel. Great way to encourage Israel to cooperate with the Palestinians.

WTF does that have to do with anything? First off in the 1967 war, as in 1956, Israel attacked first. Not that it matters. Jordan didn't fucking cede the West Bank to Israel. Israel conquered and refused to return the territory. Sounds straight forward enough to you? Only because you a dissembler. Only because you make stuff up to suit your needs.

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Name me a state in the world that didn't require terrorism and warfare to create it. Israel was more than willing to abide by the UN vote to partition Palestine peacefully. That didn't happen. No, the IDF is not made up of choir boys, or in this case yeshiva boys. Neither are Palestinian suicide bombers, knife wielders, ...

So then why are you upset when it's pointed out that Israel is exactly on a par with what the British did in India, in South Africa? That Israel, rather being the benign little experiment in socialist democracy, is a state founded upon, and maintained by terror against a previously resident population?

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If you want to fuck my donkey, go for it. Better yet, go join Hamas. They would love to strap you up with a few pounds of C4 and drop you into a cafe in Tel Aviv. It's idiots like you which make the left irrational, unable to see where progress can be made.

Priceless. "Where progress can be made." All hail the progress that willy peter bestows upon humanity.

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jesuithitsquad
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Jul 5 2016 05:24
Khawaga wrote:
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But jesuithitman, which of the straw men on your list did you mean?

I think the straw man jesuithitman is referring to is none other than AndrewX. Our jesuit was making a joke... I think.

thanks khawaga. the state of things--just. wow.

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Jul 5 2016 07:12

S. Artesian, fine, don't engage. Besides, it's tiresome trying to discuss with someone who seems to think the substance of the discussion is secondary to how far they can piss. If you really don't see the anti-Semitic trope in the imagery you're suggesting (and no one here, beyond AndrewX, is denying the oppressive actions of the Israeli regime), then you're not as clever as you think you are.

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Jul 5 2016 08:14

AndrewX:

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Better yet, go join Hamas. They would love to strap you up with a few pounds of C4 and drop you into a cafe in Tel Aviv. It's idiots like you

The Palestinian 'state' and the State of Israel are enemies just as Sinn Fein and the British Government are enemies. Eventually they will sit down round a conference table and decide how to carve up their working classes; assuming there is no collusion already.

factvalue
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Jul 5 2016 12:35
Serge Forward wrote:
S. Artesian, fine, don't engage. Besides, it's tiresome trying to discuss with someone who seems to think the substance of the discussion is secondary to how far they can piss. If you really don't see the anti-Semitic trope in the imagery you're suggesting (and no one here, beyond AndrewX, is denying the oppressive actions of the Israeli regime), then you're not as clever as you think you are.

This is typical of your style of 'engagement'. SA addresses what you wrote so you just write it again. No matter how vague or knee-jerk your original assertions or allegations are, they're yours and no one is going to deprive you of them. Good for you. Keep them, the only people interested in your precious rubbish are those with as little to say as you have.