Avaaz, 38 Degrees et al. Bonafide?

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RaniWakin
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Apr 26 2013 14:16
Avaaz, 38 Degrees et al. Bonafide?

Hi all,

Perhaps I'm a little over paranoid but I can't help feeling uncomfortable when signing Avaaz or 38 Degree campaigns, so I was wondering what folks here know, have to say, have relevant information about.

My key questions are:

* Are these organizations legit? Are they representing clicktivists honestly to power?
* Are they as effective as they claim if at all?

I sign their petitions regularly, if I think they are valid campaigns but have never really had any satisfying evidence that they are legit and effective.

Would be grateful for your views

Agent of the Fifth International's picture
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Apr 26 2013 14:46

Well, here are a few criticisms of Avaaz from its Wikipedia page:

Criticism section from Wikipedia page wrote:

In 2008, Canadian conservative minister John Baird labeled Avaaz a "shadowy foreign organization" tied to billionaire philanthropist George Soros.[42]

Another conservative Canadian, Ezra Levant,[43] tried to make a link between Soros and Avaaz.org as an indirect supporter through MoveOn, but the article was later retracted as baseless and an apology was offered to Soros.[44][45][46][47]

Some question whether Avaaz's focus on online petitions and email campaigns may encourage laziness, transforming potential activism into 'clicktivism'.[8][48] A New Republic article accuses them of false claims regarding Paul Conroy's escape from Syria.[49] Jillian York has accused Avaaz of lack of transparency and arrogance.[50] The Defensor Da Natureza's blog has accused Avaaz of taking credit for the success of the Ficha Limpa anti-corruption bill in Brazil, which Luis Nassif reposted.[51][52] The Art of Annihilation blog have also published an investigative report.[53]

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Apr 26 2013 14:48

As for 38 Degrees:

Controversy section from the Wikipedia page wrote:
Controversies

38 Degrees director David Babbs was the subject of a controversial interview by Sky News anchorwoman Kay Burley who was accused of aggressively interrupting Babbs and telling him to leave a protest about electoral reform and to instead "go home and watch it on Sky News". The term "sack Kay Burley" subsequently trended on Twitter and hundreds of complaints were made to Ofcom.[35]

Dominic Raab (Conservative MP) criticised 38 Degrees for allowing members to send "clone emails" to MPs via its website.[36] Raab stated he would lodge a complaint with the Information Commissioner's Office about 38 Degrees using his parliamentary email address but upheld complaints are published, which it was not, and it remains possible to email Raab via the 38 Degrees website.[37]

A number of government politicians strongly criticised 38 Degrees members for their actions campaigning against changes to the NHS. Lord Tyler Liberal Democrat, described 38 Degrees members as "rent a mob".[38] In 2011 Transport Minister Simon Burns MP described 38 Degrees members as "almost zombie like".[39]

Some sources have accused 38 Degrees of being left-wing and of having links to the Labour Party. The website 38 Degrees debunked, which is run by a Conservative councillor states that "Although 38 Degrees professes to be 'not connected with any political parties' it is intensely political as are its campaigns. On first sight its position seems to be a mixture of mainstream Social Democratic and Green".[40] Conservative MP Robert Halfon described 38 Degrees as "a mass database of centrist/floating voters, albeit with a sizeable minority from the centre left..[which is]...controlled by leftists".[41] 38 Degrees has strongly denied these claims.[42]

Some disability rights campaigners have criticised 38 Degrees for failing to do more to campaign against changes to disability benefits. One disabled blogger, David Gillon, highlighted the fundamental tension between campaigns to protect minorities and the 38 Degrees method of choosing campaigns through member polls: "An organisation that builds its identity around its democratic mechanisms needs those mechanisms to be accessible to all, but the truth is that they aren’t. The near insurmountable difficulties disabled people have faced in getting support in the 38 Degrees votes on where to campaign next are just one aspect of that problem; any demonised minority, Travellers for instance, is going to face the same issues."[43] A guest post from Gillon on the 38 Degrees website provoked a fierce discussion.[44]

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Apr 26 2013 14:52

From an anarchist point of view, petitioning the state is not very anarchistic at all. Asking the state to do anything that it has no interest in doing in the first place is by far the most ineffective thing activists wanting social change can do.

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Apr 26 2013 14:56

And you should really change your username to something that's other than your real name.

Spikymike
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Apr 26 2013 15:11

Well I will admit to signing a few of '38 Degrees' petitions and E-mail protests. These sorts of campaigns when sufficiently massive can sometimes at least marginally affect the decisions of those in authority in government and commercial business, but only if the issues are not fundamental to their interests at the time.

The endless stream of requests now from 38 Degrees on dam near every issue that comes up and their bragging over supposed 'victories' convinces me that they are now doing a great service in the ideological buttressing of reformism and capitalist democracy and the average persons illusions in that. Just add them to the plethora of what passes for democracy in the swamp of other sponsored petitions, consultation exercises, feedback forms, questionaires, competition and game show votes, co-op and mutual elections, parliamentary, local council, school, neughbourhood elections etc etc. designed to convince us that our opinions matter and can effect changes in our interests.

RaniWakin
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Apr 26 2013 16:06
Quote:
And you should really change your username to something that's other than your real name

It's not my 'real name' or slave name as I think of it these days. Thanks for the concern though.

RaniWakin
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Apr 26 2013 16:31
Quote:
From an anarchist point of view, petitioning the state is not very anarchistic at all. Asking the state to do anything that it has no interest in doing in the first place is by far the most ineffective thing activists wanting social change can do.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure about that. The state is a tool IMHO, and it is pulled left or right, left for the people and right for the establishment. Although the establishment staff all the important posts in government and the major parties, that doesnt make it unresponsive to public opinion. I'm pretty sure the thought of 70 million people seriously hacked off at the state and establishment scares the bejesus out of them.

Whilst I would agree that the state is a pretty horrid and inbred institution, that does many bad things, it's about the only thing protecting the masses from the establishment. To my way of thinking it's a double edged sword.

I'm no statist BTW, however if the state were to vanish right this minute, it would result in a humanitarian catastrophy because the majority are so dependent on it. For me anarchism is about the struggle to pull society and the state towards more enlightenned thinking and eventually disgard it and I tend to follow Chomsky's view that anarchism is about challenging concentrations of power.

I do see value in petitioning, protest and so forth, especially as I live away from the real concentrations of power and can have little other input than through such means as mail campaigns.

What do you see as being effective in moving society away from the totalitarian and fascist ideologies of the establishment?

Thanks for all your posts BTW. Much appreciated.

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Tyrion
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Apr 26 2013 18:27
RaniWakin wrote:
Whilst I would agree that the state is a pretty horrid and inbred institution, that does many bad things, it's about the only thing protecting the masses from the establishment. To my way of thinking it's a double edged sword.

I'm confused about how the state can be considered separate from the political establishment of wherever country.

That aside, it is the state provides the coercive force necessary to defending capital. This is not just in more blatant cases where cops violently put down strikes, but in the everyday enforcement of property "rights"--arresting a hungry person who steals food from a supermarket, for example, or arresting/expelling a homeless person taking shelter in an unoccupied building owned by someone else. Whatever supposed protection is offered by the state just alleviates the conditions that it enables in the first place.

I assume you're thinking about state welfare programs and the like, but those have only come about through mass social action that left this or that state with little choice but to give in. To view such concessions as protection offered by the state seems to me tantamount to crediting a capitalist for protecting his workers when he's forced to give in to worker demands for a safer workplace.

RaniWakin wrote:
I'm no statist BTW, however if the state were to vanish right this minute, it would result in a humanitarian catastrophy because the majority are so dependent on it. For me anarchism is about the struggle to pull society and the state towards more enlightenned thinking and eventually disgard it and I tend to follow Chomsky's view that anarchism is about challenging concentrations of power.

States have certainly collapsed into violent chaos at time in which different bourgeois factions have vied for dominance, this is true. There are other times, however, when the state has basically ceased to exercise meaningful power and freer societies have emerged through the self-organization of the masses--large parts of Spain in 1936 (http://libcom.org/library/spanish-civil-war-1936-39-reading-guide), for instance, or Paris in 1871 (http://libcom.org/history/1871-the-paris-commune).

RaniWakin
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Apr 26 2013 18:38

I agree with much of what you say. However at this moment in time, if there were no state then the establishment would be using private armies on us with no legal restrictions.

Quote:
I assume you're thinking about state welfare programs and the like, but those have only come about through mass social action

Not just welfare programs, but restrictions on the power of corporations and so forth. Don't get me wrong, they've been given incredible freedom, but imagine what it would be like without any regulation.

Quote:
There are other times, however, when the state has basically ceased to exercise meaningful power and freer societies have emerged through the self-organization of the masses--large parts of Spain in 1936

It depends on where you are talking about. In the UK right now I believe a collapse of state would result in a bloodbath, particularly given the vested interests of the US financially and as a client state functioning as a thorn in the EU.

Spikymike
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Apr 27 2013 17:19

Globalisation is certainly weakening the power of individual nation states but they still perform a useful function in facilitating corporate power and disciplining the rest of us when we challenge that power in even the most minor ways. The 'establishment' already runs each nation state in it's interests not ours.

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Reddebrek
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Apr 28 2013 13:24
Quote:
However at this moment in time, if there were no state then the establishment would be using private armies on us with no legal restrictions.

You know I used to struggle with this too. Governments do occasionally take on powerful members of the "establishment" (I've always preferred the term oligarchy) but here's the rub, the State and government (if there is a difference) is the committee of the establishment. That means it represents them as a whole so when individual members of the establishment put their own needs and desires before the group, like say tax evasion, or causing social conflict it'll usually act.

Say I was a wealthy boss, its in my interests to pay as little as possible in both wages and maintenance of conditions. But what happens when I get my way and pay too little? the working population gets angry and violent. Militancy at my interests could easily spread to other bosses concerns. So its in the best interests of the whole establishment to bring in certain practices like minimum wages and some form of safety regulation.

The state makes concessions to the population because it needs them, and a direct full scale confrontation between the haves and have nots isn't in any of the haves interests.

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Apr 28 2013 15:04
Reddebrek wrote:
Quote:
However at this moment in time, if there were no state then the establishment would be using private armies on us with no legal restrictions.

You know I used to struggle with this too. Governments do occasionally take on powerful members of the "establishment" (I've always preferred the term oligarchy) but here's the rub, the State and government (if there is a difference) is the committee of the establishment. That means it represents them as a whole so when individual members of the establishment put their own needs and desires before the group, like say tax evasion, or causing social conflict it'll usually act.

Say I was a wealthy boss, its in my interests to pay as little as possible in both wages and maintenance of conditions. But what happens when I get my way and pay too little? the working population gets angry and violent. Militancy at my interests could easily spread to other bosses concerns. So its in the best interests of the whole establishment to bring in certain practices like minimum wages and some form of safety regulation.

The state makes concessions to the population because it needs them, and a direct full scale confrontation between the haves and have nots isn't in any of the haves interests.

Exactly; a committee of the bourgeoisie!

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jef costello
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May 11 2013 09:08
Spikymike wrote:
The endless stream of requests now from 38 Degrees on dam near every issue that comes up and their bragging over supposed 'victories' convinces me that they are now doing a great service in the ideological buttressing of reformism and capitalist democracy and the average persons illusions in that.

Exactly. I signed the bees one as a favour to a friend.