Can anyone who works in construction give advice on a building problem?

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Joined: 1-11-11
Can anyone who works in construction give advice on a building problem?

We are building a multipurpose workshop/shed on my mum's smallholding.

We had never built anything bigger than a 3m x 2.5m garden shed before & done some d.i.y. that gave us delusions of competence!

So it has been a steep motherfucker of a learning curve….
Anyway I have some technical probs with the doors, windows and the z- purlins on the metal roof and I was hoping that anyone who works in construction might have some advice or thoughts about the following Q’s.

None of our mates are in the rights trades or professions for advice and the ones that have done building work say ‘yous know more than me now’. surprised

We learnt out of books and the internet and asked for advice a lot. We have photos here http://www.flickr.com/photos/scotspinehedge/sets/ that kinda explain the questions.

1) Leaking around doors and windows. The windows sit in rough openings that we made a wee bit too big. So the gap around them can be anything from 10mm to 40mm (40mm at the top not the sides). We were gonna put in this tarry kind of flashing strips (bendy, cut w a stanley knife, metallic coating on one side) but we had help putting in the windows and doors cos it was too complicated for us. So we paid and worked alongside this really nice guy who’s a carpenter/joiner with him as gaffer (.. so relaxing for someone else to be in charge for a bit) - and he gave us some advice. He said not to use the flashing strips which we had been going to put round all the door/window rough openings over the breather membrane that folds in and over them. So we didn’t and just left it. He said fill in the gaps with expanding foam. Most of them don’t have the foam in yet.
But now they are leaking and this other dude said fill in with sealant but the gaps are too big for that I think. He said expanding foam can leave critical holes which will allow water penetration. Also got a cheaper sealant (no nonsense) which I was prob a false economy as it seems to soften and go squidgy in the rain even alto its supposed to be exterior grade. And with the doors they are leaking under the extra framing the carpenter put in the rough opening to frame them i.e. in between the new framing and the original rough opening with the housewrap on it.

2) water being redirected onto the wooden cladding instead of into the guttering at 2 points. The roof is a composite metal roof i.e. it has insulation integrated into it, sandwiched in between 2 sheets of metal. It is set on a simple shed roof (single) slant. So at the lower end the water runs of into the guttering. But when the roof was first put on it turned out the company had missed out two of the metal z- purlins. (They are like z shapes if you look at these pieces end on). So we only paid for help with 2 things during the whole project so far: the doors and windows and putting the metal sheeting onto the wooden roofing we had built. So 2 guys (who were quite nice but had a dog that menaced and bit our dog!) attached it all, did a good job but couldn’t put on final 2 z –purlins cos they were missing. So later I put them on with a friend and now I wonder did I get it not tight enough somehow. I think the pictures explain better than words anyway.

Any advice or thoughts on these dilemmas would be totally appreciated but its fine if you don’t have time… I’m posting this on some other building forums and a kind guy at the sawmill said he would drive out and look at it if we stayed stuck..cheers, dohball x

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Joined: 21-04-06

The first problem is simple. Cut strips of fiberglass insulation batting, it's the fluffy looking pink stuff in case they call it something else over there, and shove them in the gaps. Don't try to force it in, a loose filling is what you want. And make sure to peel off the paper backing. In this case it's just in the way.
Never dealt with metal roofing so I can't be much help there but I built energy efficient housing for years and know insulation.All too well, I forgot to mention the stuff itches like hell.

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Joined: 1-11-11

Hi David, Thankyou, that's very sweet of you to get back on this one.

The thing is with the issues to do with the windows & the consequent water penetration I can't see how mineral /rockwool insulation (you mean the generic fibre glass stuff right) would stop water penetration. when i have seen that product get wet it droops and sags and soaks up the water, not repelling it..

(Also on the itching front you should never handle that stuff barehanded or allow it to come into contact with your skin. You should wear a good quality mask as the tiny fibres break, enter the air and then your lungs as it get moved around. It is very bad for your lungs. Sadly it is often mishandled...actually i think it is sad it is manufactured at all as there are much safer and better quality forms of insulation - but i know its very cheap.)

Sorry you probably know that; more just thought i put it out there in case anyone else is reading this thread.

We are using untreated (but hand processed) sheeps wool as insulation which was mostly bought from a local farmer and some given by crofting neighbours. It can absorb a lot of moisture and pass it back out again via evaporation which make sit quite cool but also still not water repellent.

the pink stuff you'll see in the photos (did you follow the link?) is expanding foam..
I'm coming around to the idea - SERENITY NOW - that I may need to take the windows back out and do the job properly from scratch (like i almost did ...aaaaargh!) and then put them back in again. bit of a bummer cos it would mean ripping out all my exterior finishing work. anyway...

so if you look at the photos (if you didn't b4) - do you have any other ideas..?

cheers, dohball

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Joined: 6-04-10

I bit hard to see what's going on in those photos.

Generally timber panelling is just a rain screen, not actually waterproof but protecting the membrane behind from driving rain sun etc. There needs to be an air gap between the panelling and the membrane. The details at the head/cill of the window should prevent water from running into the wall by using drips and overlaps.

Think of the water running down the window/facade and how you make sure it can't run "back" into the wall or even worse into the interior. From the photos it looks like the head detail is a bit iffy.

Using rockwool or wool you can as explained above fill any void but you then need to cover it with membrane/building paper and again create details that prevent the water from running down the paper and into the building. Always overlap the paper like shingles with the upper piece covering the lower one. You definitely don't want the building paper/membrane to go from the outside to the inside as water can then run along it.

Dunno if the above is of any use I can't quite figure out what's going on. The problem is on the outside however. You cant do much about it without removing some panelling around the window.

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Joined: 21-04-06

dohball, sorry, I answered without exactly understanding your problem. You may need to go back and refit the windows from scratch, which is a royal pain in the ass, I know. I've had to un-do work before. One thing you could try before you go that route is a generous application of latex caulk. The gaps don't look to be anything larger than can be handled that way. Wonderful product, latex caulk. It is your friend. On looking further, you should probably caulk the whole wall

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Hi Cooked and David, just cheers again for bothering with this.
its true the photos do make it not so clear really...

if i drew a cross section of a wall from the outside to the inside it would go like this:

cladding plank (a sarking board) with the joins/gaps bwtween the boards covered by tiling battons (these are nailed to the next layer beneath)

tiling batton screwed horizonatally to the building (there are rows of them along the building) this created the necessary gap 25mm

breather membrane tyvek 2000 housewrap

sheathing cladding

the wall uprights/ studs etc. of the framing

the cavity crated in the interior by the 95mm wall uprights is stuffed with sheeps wool and covered with more breather membrane

.......................................................................................................................

There is a photo of the door sill in the door section that kinda shows this..but i can understand if you can't be arsed / doesn't feel very possible without actually being on site

But whats harder to describe is that the windows sit flush with the outside breather membrane/stud uprights and then the wooden cladding comes a bit in front of the window frame.

The window frame sits in the rough opening (with gap around it at either side) and then the gap that's left ( i.e. the gap between the outside cladding and the frame cos the cladding is further out than the frame which is flush with the exterior breather membrane) is covered by a tiling batton that's covered by a painted 100m x 50 mm batton.
i.e. its a gap that you would see more if you stood to the side rather than if you faced the building.

(the painted battons are white and can be seen in photos). i put brown sealant behind the white painted battons.

Quote:
You definitely don't want the building paper/membrane to go from the outside to the inside as water can then run along it.

fraid that's how it is... it was what the framing/windows door book said was ok but only if i covered it with the tarry flashing strip stuff like i was going to.

umm , what is the

Quote:
head detail

?

boy i'd much rather write a really long email than take those windows out!!

thanks for your consoling words... i may just have to be patient and take it one step at a time.. taking them back out. i sort of feel like i could do it myself this time, apart from the big windows as they are quite heavy.

but not the doors. now that really would be pain in the ass to take them out.. any thoughts on them?
anyways sorry so loong, hard to summarise what would need no words if on site could just point mutely...
cheers dohball

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Joined: 6-04-10

Hard to decipher your section by words... sketch would be waaay easier.
But as far as I can tell it the buildup sounds sane.

If you're using sticky flashing stuff you can in theory seal all joints including where the membrane goes into the building. Creating a waterproof seal by stickyness alone is risky though. Best work it as a traditional flashing. Looks like your windows are recycled as well which makes it harder to create a proper seal.

Water gathering between the frame and the window at the bottom is just wrong img can't imagine how it rises. Should just go back out onto the cill. Are the windows fixed in the correct way around?

Head detail is just the top of the opening, but if you've done a proper rainscreen as described the detailing of the panelling is more or less irrelevant. I'ts all in how you've done the membrane and flashing. Everything has to slope outwards including the cills which look horizontal to me. Think of a goose and how the water runs off it. Any horizontal underside and the water can run along it back into the building.

As your photos don't show what's been done on the waterproofing side it's kinda impossible to offer advice sad

I'm feeling this is seriously OT for libcom wink

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Joined: 1-11-11

i drew 4 diagrams that i think make it clearer and put them up on flickr in a new set.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scotspinehedge/sets/

Quote:
I'm feeling this is seriously OT for libcom wink

I know i did hestitate about posting but to be honest i feel a bit at sea about what to do with this problem and the desperation won out!