Disturbing comments on Facebook

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akai
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Jan 12 2012 17:21

Well, I do.
The IASR's page is this one: http://iasromania.wordpress.com/
The other is ASIR: http://asinforomania.wordpress.com/
The organization is the first one.
About the information here, no idea and no comment. Have more confidence in one than the other, but only because one is known to hang with some shady types. That means nothing in this situation though. I think that there needs to be proof of one or the other's claims, otherwise hard to judge anything. I will try to do some spying but won't say anything unless it can be confirmed.

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Serge Forward
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Jan 12 2012 18:09
akai wrote:
Well, I do.
The IASR's page is this one: http://iasromania.wordpress.com/
The other is ASIR: http://asinforomania.wordpress.com/
The organization is the first one.
About the information here, no idea and no comment. Have more confidence in one than the other, but only because one is known to hang with some shady types. That means nothing in this situation though. I think that there needs to be proof of one or the other's claims, otherwise hard to judge anything. I will try to do some spying but won't say anything unless it can be confirmed.

You were saying earlier:

Quote:
How is it that in this case, people were able to react, condemn the posts and get some clarification and apology quite quickly

Hmm...

MT
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Jan 12 2012 19:30
RedEd wrote:
Akai, I'm not familiar with what your talking about. Do you have a link?

http://libcom.org/forums/anarchist-federation/maybe-af-should-reply-27062011

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Arbeiten
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Jan 15 2012 02:55

hmmmm. So what are we to make of this? Been stewing for a couple of days and IASR have not been back to deny it..... not looking good guys roll eyes

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Wren
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Jan 16 2012 14:55

I, too, am interested to hear from IASR.

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jef costello
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Jan 16 2012 19:38

Doesn't Boris have some contacts in Romania?

bastarx
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Jan 17 2012 01:22
jef costello wrote:
Doesn't Boris have some contacts in Romania?

Boris has disappeared since getting a lot of well deserved criticism for crossing a picket line.

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IASR
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Jan 17 2012 22:53

First of all, we apologize for the delay in responding ,but as you might know, popular protests have arose in Romania and this is not the country from which to communicate right this moment, as we have been closely watched by the Romanian Intelligence Service.

Second, we would like to settle once and for all the incident regarding the “Disturbing comments on Facebook” (http://libcom.org/forums/general/disturbing-comments--08012012?page=1).We did try to contact the comrade responsible for the comments, mostly to let him know that he made an understandable mistake and that we have apologized collectively in his name.

Regarding ASIR,we have been waiting for a long time for a collaboration but it seems that its founder admin: name removed,an ex FAU-Germany member, preferred to stay in the shadows and hit at the very first mistake we made. He did manage to create internal turmoil but we do not consider that we should stop existing and stop our work, which now we find difficult to do while we cannot function as a group and while our motivation and reason for existing is questioned.

At the moment we are just a few,but we try our best to start a genuine anarchist movement in Romania,even if in the end we resume our work to a blog with translated articles.We acknowledge our flaws and for this we ask for understanding. If this is not enough,then we will continue nevertheless, regardless of the false information that is being spread.

All the best ,
IASR (Anarcho-Syndicalist Initiative from Romania)
International Secretariat

Harrison
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Jan 18 2012 01:25
Peter wrote:
jef costello wrote:
Doesn't Boris have some contacts in Romania?

Boris has disappeared since getting a lot of well deserved criticism for crossing a picket line.

Is that Badenov or r u making a funny about Johnson?

bastarx
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Jan 18 2012 01:35

Badenov.

Admin edit: off-topic and an attack on another poster.

Harrison
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Jan 18 2012 01:48

Admin edit: off-topic.

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Tarwater
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Jan 18 2012 04:13

Admin edit: off-topic and an attack on another poster.

bastarx
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Jan 18 2012 07:12

Admin edit: off-topic and an attack on another poster.

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welshboy
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Jan 18 2012 09:15
IASR wrote:
mostly to let him know that he made an understandable mistake and that we have apologized collectively in his name.

Not really sure what's understandable about rape as anti-fascist activity tbh.

akai
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Jan 19 2012 06:01

Why is the name of the person involved removed? For me it is relevant and the fact that this denunciation comes from there is noted, without of course assuming that it is true or false. My biggest concern about the whole matter at this point is just that when all is done that the people in Romania and elsewhere who didn't understand why these comments were inappropriate have a discussion about it and that these issues become clearer. I would just point out to the rest, if it isn't obvious already, that certain topics are not developed or analysed so well around the world. I mean, I have seen similar words in Poland on numerous occasions and with similar comments about political correctness. I don't know how many of you have had to experience discussing topics like this in places where such issues have not already been discussed decades ago, but it is not an easy thing and so really my only hope here is that whoever is at fault can reflect. The other question of course is that the mentality of that issue change. In my experience here, sometimes what has happened in Poland is that people understand that "western people" are sensitive about certain things so, you just can't say that in front of them, but at home where people don't care, you can just continue. Am not saying that this is the case with the Romanian comrades here, but just to say that the people around them probably don't care about this to much, so that it the atmosphere in which the problem is created.

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AS Info Romania
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Jan 19 2012 06:15

IASR continues with their lies. They claim further that it was not the international secretary of IASR who is the author of the comments that justify rape as antifascism.

Related to ASIR we state: ASIR existed before the founding of IASR. When the Initiativa Anarho-Sindicalista was founded they got supported by ASIR. This took place in the form of translations, through reports and interviews, even through the enabling of international contacts. The reason why ASIR did not join IASR lies in our different focus of activity. ASIR is not an organisation, but a network of anarchist and anarcho-syndicalist comrades, which informs about the social and political developments in Romania. In addition, we have a different view on IWA than IASR has. Therefore, it is excluded for ASIR to get member in an organisation which wants to become a section of IWA. Even so, we worked without reservations in solidarity with IASR.

The fact that IASR made public on this platform the name of an alleged comrade from ASIR, is for us a further reason to cease placing any trust in this group and to see them as a danger for the whole movement. In the beginning of their latest post (#39 from 17.01.12) IASR mentions the intensive surveillance under which libertarian activists are placed by the Romanian secret service. A few lines further, they denounce by themselves the name of a comrade to set him under potential state repression.

This is the typical conduct of the remaining persons in IASR. They reject responsibility all the time and assign it to other ones. They do not admit own mistakes but deny them. In fact, the responsibility for the “turmoil” lies only with the IASR group of friends who believe that they can take themselves out of the own created mess through lies and more lies.

We warn once more all comrades against a collaboration with this group which use lies and denunciations as tools.

ASIR, 18. January 2012

no1
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Jan 19 2012 08:05
akai wrote:
Why is the name of the person involved removed? For me it is relevant

This has always been the case on licom, and over the years it's been applied in a consistent and principled way.

akai
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Jan 19 2012 14:13

Well, the name of the person is well known and published all over the internet anyway, but let's assume he is now somewhat more shy.

I personally have no way to check any of this, but sort of laughing my ass off here since the author of the ASIR remark has a pretty bad reputation for denunciation, manipulating facts and internet trolling himself.

It has also been convenient for a number of people associated with him to use the possibility of state repression to conduct anonymous campaigns on the internet with people not able to really prove who their accusers are, although in some cases it comes out or is otherwise known.

Might be off topic, the things written may or may not be true in this case, but I am going to warn comrades also about ASIR since some of the details might be of interest. Of course not here since this might be deleted in a principled way.

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IASR
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Jan 19 2012 14:20

Again, this hawkish attitude towards us and our efforts to build a Romanian libertarian movement is very suspicious. More effort is actually put in discrediting the Romanian movement rather than building it.

Isn't it weird how these comments from ASIR presumably know internal issues and actors inside IASR? How should "they" known what we decided at the IASR conference? an awful lot it is known about what we decide collectively, it seems "they" know more things about us and our project than we ourselves know, people here with more experience in libertarian organizations, most definitely see this. We've dealt with the problem quickly and we did what was in our power to do; the continuation of this "shit storm" under such pretenses serves either personal interests or the denigration of the whole Romanian libertarian movement, not just one person or organization. This begs a lot of questions about this "watchdog" status ASIR appointed itself, without knowing us personally and professionally.

All the best ,
IASR (Anarcho-Syndicalist Initiative from Romania)
International Secretariat

MT
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Jan 19 2012 17:57

Comrade, IASR statement is pretty unclear to me. you are defensively explaining things with "situation in Romania" reasoning, but as I have seen this logic of debate in the past with other people, I tend to not see it as the true reason. I am not saying you lie. But definitely you didn't convince me either and rather it feels like macho posturing, whining and defending by "repression".

There is ONE SINGLE sentence in what I thought is an explanatory statement

Quote:
We did try to contact the comrade responsible for the comments, mostly to let him know that he made an understandable mistake and that we have apologized collectively in his name.

I hope that by understandable you me "it is indeed a mistake what this person did". but did i miss the apology? i might overlooked. in that case please navigate me where to find it. thanks

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Little Prince
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Jan 19 2012 19:45

I hate such senseless conflicts in anarcho-syndicalist movement, but much more I hate, when people first tell, that they "can't check out" something, but in the same moment post really strange positions to the same problem. Maybe it would be better to be silent, then to make really silly statements - without knowing what about.

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Jan 19 2012 19:48
MT wrote:
Comrade, IASR statement is pretty unclear to me. you are defensively explaining things with "situation in Romania" reasoning, but as I have seen this logic of debate in the past with other people, I tend to not see it as the true reason. I am not saying you lie. But definitely you didn't convince me either and rather it feels like macho posturing, whining and defending by "repression".

There is ONE SINGLE sentence in what I thought is an explanatory statement

Quote:
We did try to contact the comrade responsible for the comments, mostly to let him know that he made an understandable mistake and that we have apologized collectively in his name.

I hope that by understandable you me "it is indeed a mistake what this person did". but did i miss the apology? i might overlooked. in that case please navigate me where to find it. thanks

Greetings comrade,

That is the reply to the ridiculous and hostile statements of ASIR (which it seems that already has a bad reputation when it comes to such things) not our statement regarding the incident. For our OFFICIAL statement regarding the Facebook incident check comment #12, we already apologized and took the proper measures. Also we want to inform anyone interested, that our group existed before ASIR, our blog was just breaching the internet. As a group we existed when we started individually getting involved in workplace struggles. As we already said, this shows how presumably well ASIR knew us.

MT
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Jan 19 2012 19:52

oh, i see, i must have missed it. thanks.
btw, why this formulation?

Quote:
The views expressed in the comments, are those of the respective individual and do not necessarily represent the views of IASR.

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IASR
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Jan 19 2012 20:10
MT wrote:
oh, i see, i must have missed it. thanks.
btw, why this formulation?
Quote:
The views expressed in the comments, are those of the respective individual and do not necessarily represent the views of IASR.

Because we wanted to highlight that such views don't represent neither IASR as a libertarian entity nor the individuals in it, even if a IASR member made it. Such formulations are common when are made by organizations, newspapers, editorials etc. The formulation represents our utmost professional response to the incident, without trying to continue it in any form or manner. Because we think such incidents, will bring only harm to us and to the larger Romanian libertarian movement, which is already suffocated and trying to survive in such a harsh climate.

MT
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Jan 19 2012 20:16

what i wanted to say is that by adding necessarily you basically say "it may but also may not be people in IASR who think the same". without necessarily it means, there are no such people in AISR;)

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Jan 19 2012 20:29

But of course, we convened took the measures and apologized, we applied those measures, because such comments were made through the official Facebook page of IASR, if such comments were made on personal accounts of certain IASR members, its their own personal views not NECESSARILY our own. I think (i might be mistaken) the Libcom admins have similar procedures.

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Steven.
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Jan 19 2012 23:12

MT, I did wonder similarly about that sentence, but I put it down to language difficulties. IASR, putting in the word "necessarily" makes it seem that some of you might agree with it.

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IASR
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Jan 20 2012 01:39

The intent of that word is explained above, much more than that can become nitpicking.

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Panait
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Jan 20 2012 07:45

This is going too far!
I am an ex member of IASR. I quit this group for the reasons that are reported by AS Info Romania in comment # 29.

In order to be credible I would like to ask comrade Harrison (his comment # 7) to confirm if the person who replied him at his first email at iasr@riseup.net is signing with a name that start with the letter 'M'. Well, that person is me.

I would like to say very clear that:
1. IASR members don't see in those comments posted on facebook any problem;
2.IASR is lying the larger community;
3. IASR does not represent the movement in Romania. There are other groups that are more active, more dedicated and clear on their libertarian path and also more numerous than IASR is;
4. IASR members not only that are lying and accept sexist views but they also have no honor when they published the name of a comrade;
4. Regarding 1, 2 and 4 it is clear for me that IASR can not be a tool for emancipation and the remaining members are irresponsible.

akai
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Jan 20 2012 08:13

Well, I think that on the risk of going off-topic, the point in 3 might be interesting to people who might want to know what the spectrum of the so-called movement is like in Romania. I say so-called not because I think there is nobody there, but I say this because I feel the word in general is generally used to describe an analgram of people that do not necessarily compose any coherent whole and therefore do not "move" together in any clear direction. That is not a comment on Romania, just a general observation on the use of that word.

I also think the answer will put this in another perspective.

Anyway, I would appreciate it now if the people who say that the others are lying try to present some concrete proof that can be verified by people from the outside. If not, it just will degenerate into name-calling and there is no way to know anything.

About the comments on the use of the word necessarily, the comrades writing here are correct that this word puts doubt on whether you distance yourself for the comments and it is intended to be used when you want to show a more neutral position. I know that you have seen it as almost a set phrase, but be aware of its implication in the future.