A Heartfelt Seasons Greetings from a Long Gone Comrade Who Sincerely Wishes You All Well

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ultraviolet's picture
ultraviolet
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Jan 4 2016 01:21
radicalgraffiti wrote:
the thing with videos like that is everyone knows that the people making them put in all the worst stuff they can find.

Radicalgraffiti, you've embarrassed yourself with this post. It's totally clear that you didn't watch the video, you didn't read my post, and you didn't even read the bold parts of my post. If you had done any one of these things, you would have realized that:

> It was not a video of "the worst stuff" or any negative treatment of animals. It was about a friendship between a man and a goose named Maria.

And if you'd read even just the bold parts of my post, you'd've also noticed that:

> I asked questions about how animals should ideally be treated (which you've totally ignored).

> One of the questions asked specifically about the justification for murdering (oops I mean killing, let's not get extreme!) of animals under even the most "humane" (there's a stupid word) conditions.

Elsewhere in my post I also challenged the ethics of murdering/killing animals living under "humane" conditions.

Glad you've exposed yourself for how dishonestly you are engaging in this debate, and how many brain cells you're using for it, and the same goes for whoever upped your post.

ultraviolet's picture
ultraviolet
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Jan 4 2016 00:59
Scallywag wrote:
I think there is a big difference between concern for animal welfare (which is totally valid in my view) and a perspective I earlier called biocentric which views all individual organisms as being of equal worth and thus deserving of the same rights. The later I think that has a lot of problems some of which have been brought up in this thread, but basically I think it has potential to be misanthropic, it views a way in which humans have (and still rely on in some places) for supporting themselves as fundamentally immoral as Chili said back in #60 and lastly I just think it is absurd that all individual organisms have the same intrinsic worth to each other, whether that's an insect, a virus, a cow, chicken, fish, dog or human. Anyway I think this thread has passed boring now, and given the antagonism its caused between members it should probably just die.

Hi Scallywag. You don't have to believe that every animal has the same intrinsic worth to each other -- whether human or chicken or whatever -- to see that it is really fucked up to murder/kill or mistreat/harm non-human animals for food, when there are other food options available to live a good and healthy life.

ultraviolet's picture
ultraviolet
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Jan 4 2016 01:43

Who are you eating?

Here's another real life love story for you.

When Joanne Altsman had a heart attack in her home and collapsed to the floor, her pet pig Lulu was the only one around.

Joanne described what happened: "Here she was trying to get me up, she was kissing me and crying so I’d get off the floor. She knew something was wrong."

Lulu knew she had to go for help. But the only way out was through a doggie door that was way too small for the 200 pound pig. But Lulu didn't let that stop her. She forced her way through, “scraping her sides raw to the point of drawing blood.”

She went towards the road, and although she'd been taught not to cross it, she walked straight into the middle. Whenever a car approached she lay in the road to stop it, but they drove around her.

Lulu went back to check on Joanne, who was by then going in and out of consciousness."When I’m laying on the floor," said Joanne, "and this pig is putting this big homely head over me and crying these tears, somehow Lulu knew I was dying."

Lulu went back to the road. Finally someone stopped and, somehow, Lulu got him to follow her to the house where he found Joanne on the floor. He ran off to call the ambulance and Lulu stayed right by Joanne’s side until they arrive.

At the hospital, doctors help her get well – but it was Lulu who saved her life.

Sources:
> The Pig Who Sang to the Moon, by Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson
> Video: Distressed Pig Retrieves Help For Owner Who Suffered A Heart Attack! [National Geographic] (video no longer online, but I have a downloaded copy if anyone wants it)

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Jan 4 2016 02:26

Really briefly;

What is the vegan response to accusations that the practice is just a gesture of personal disentanglement from a moral abomination (as Webby indicated)?

If this is true, the world is full of numerous opportunities for similar gestures; like not buying from particularly abusive employers and so forth.

Additionally, many other human practices and desires besides meat consumption cause animal suffering and death. Agricultural runoff causes untold suffering in marine life in that its eventual effects deplete the oxygen in water and slowly suffocate the creatures.

The kind of moral consistency of the sort that factvalue and Webby are on about would seem difficult on this shit show called earth. :-/

radicalgraffiti
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Jan 4 2016 02:36
ultraviolet wrote:
radicalgraffiti wrote:
the thing with videos like that is everyone knows that the people making them put in all the worst stuff they can find.

Radicalgraffiti, you've embarrassed yourself with this post. It's totally clear that you didn't watch the video, you didn't read my post, and you didn't even read the bold parts of my post. If you had done any one of these things, you would have realized that:

> It was not a video of "the worst stuff" or any negative treatment of animals. It was about a friendship between a man and a goose named Maria.

i only looked at the video in your first post, i assumed you where reposting the same thing, do you really expect people to watch videos posted with no description?

edits ok there was a description, but

you start like this

ultraviolet wrote:
Here is a video from my heart to all of you, as a holiday gift and greetings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfCvelT4QtE

and expect people to not expect the same here?

ultraviolet wrote:
E v e r y o n e ... I dare you to watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0czs_OtqrLA
and not get that there is something horribly wrong with what we as a species are doing to animals?

Scallywag
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Jan 4 2016 03:04
ultraviolet wrote:
Hi Scallywag. You don't have to believe that every animal has the same intrinsic worth to each other -- whether human or chicken or whatever -- to see that it is really fucked up to murder/kill or mistreat/harm non-human animals for food, when there are other food options available to live a good and healthy life.

Sure UV I agree that its wrong to lock up animals in confined spaces and eat huge amounts of meat when there is no need to, this for me comes under animal welfare and environmental concerns though. I can even somewhat accept the view that its wrong for us to kill animals simply to satisfy our want for lots of good tasting meat. I could question why we should apply this moral standard to ourselves when there is no morality within the animal world to stop animals from eating each other simply for taste, but carnivores most times usually fail to catch their prey, humans on the other hand due to our technology and intelligence are much more successful so we easily have the ability to massively exploit nature just to satisfy our manufactured wants.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jan 4 2016 04:08

So, I don't want UV to stop posting on libcom, so I think we should all try to keep this as civil as possible. But I do sort of feel like UV and Webby have put forward arguments that don't rise above an emotional level.

I don't think anyone on this thread feels that any animal - reared for food or otherwise - should be subjected to anything more than the bare minimum of pain. No one supports factory farming and I think we'd all probably agree that in a sane and rational world, meat consumption would drop considerably - and I think that comes through in most people's posts. Yet, the response to that has to post videos that show the show the horrors of factory farming or videos that, while very sweet, aren't actually an argument against meat consumption.

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Noah Fence
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Jan 4 2016 04:42

Hey UV

Sorry about this but I've been thinking that it would afford me a little pleasure to punch you in the face everyday. Now I know this is entirely unnecessary and would cause you a good deal of pain, and I feel a bit guilty about it but that's just an emotional response and so not a valid argument against face punching, which means, of course, that I'm gonna have to keep punching you in the face. I'll do it as humanely as possible of course, I mean, we're not barbarians are we.

In better news, I saw some people walking freely down the street earlier today which put a smile on my face. It was just nice to see some irrefutable evidence that prisoners in the UK have plenty of room to stroll around their cells.

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boozemonarchy
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Jan 4 2016 05:07

What makes the choice to be vegan different from not shopping 'sweat shop' goods and the whole rest of the sort of personal, moral boycott stuff prominent in liberal milieus (e.g. "I'm not shopping at Wal-Mart cause ______")?

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Noah Fence
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Jan 4 2016 05:11

Booze, I think that's been well covered already in earlier posts. Anyhow, I've already fucked up by posting again and I sure can't be bothered going over things ad infinitum on a thread where desperate people will say absolutely anything to justify themselves while they quiver with fear at the idea of their loss of privilege.

http://youtu.be/T5evsxRdkJw

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Jan 4 2016 09:22

Scallywag #97
‘I could question why we should apply this moral standard to ourselves when there is no morality within the animal world to stop animals from eating each other simply for taste…’

This reasoning is very dubious as the very fact that humans can pose this abstract question clearly demonstrates we can think beyond our immediate needs and objectify our desires. So humans are part of and different from the animal world.

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Steven.
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Jan 4 2016 11:10

Sorry, but I'm going to have to do lock this thread as it seems people just can't be civil when it comes to talking about animal rights.

While certainly there has been flaming on all sides, I think the initial moralising and misanthropy (claiming that the majority of the world's population deserves to get the shit beaten out of them) was entirely unhelpful. Especially as that same moralising could be directed straight back at those individuals.

… as they post on the internet on gadgets made by nonwhite workers in the developing world who work in sweatshop conditions and drive themselves to early graves, if not hurl themselves to their deaths from the roofs of their factories. With components dug from the ground by more workers of colour, many of whom die for it, all while wearing clothes sewn by more perhaps children working in near-slave conditions, and possibly being killed in factory fires or collapses, all the while using electricity whose generation is destroying the whole planet. Surely anyone who doesn't boycott these products of exploitation, destruction and murder deserves to have the shit beaten out of them…

Topic locked