rapists and "lads mags"

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the croydonian anarchist's picture
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Dec 13 2011 21:58
rapists and "lads mags"

Saw an animal rights nutter from the old local Croydon ALARM branch link this on facebook, shocking stuff, or perhaps not so shocking ? What do you guys think ? Some of the quotes I found really quite, as I said before, shocking.

http://jezebel.com/5866602/can-you-tell-the-difference-between-a-mens-magazine-and-a-rapist

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Dec 13 2011 22:10

Welcome to rape culture.

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HorrorHiro
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Dec 13 2011 22:13

I blame the patriarchy.

zenkka
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Dec 13 2011 22:28

I got 11 out of 16 right. bizarre.

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Dec 13 2011 23:09

Filthy talk can be such a turn on for a girl . . . no one wants to be shagged by a mouse . . . A few compliments won't do any harm either . . . ‘I bet you want it from behind you dirty whore' . . .

CALL ME OLD FASHIONED BUT....lol

On a side note the girl I am seeing sometimes has this thing about the word daddy, sex and me using it and being dominant etc, it is not cool with me and it feels wierd, however whats a guy gonna say, you can't be daddies slut cos it freaks me out and leads e to think you have father issues?

Some people on the left act as if women never like the afformentioned but I can speak from experience some do and if you take issue with it they act as if your nuts have fallen off.

Couple the wanting to be whore this and slut that and calling me daddy, then the fact all women need to shave their privates to look like they are seven, its kind of a turn off as its basically like being reverse groomed into being a pedophile by a woman child.

Women sort it out, also does anyone actually read nuts etc? its just tits and football, I would rather download free porn and buy sports mags, just sayin.

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Steven.
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Dec 13 2011 23:40
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
Saw an animal rights nutter from the old local Croydon ALARM branch link this on facebook, shocking stuff, or perhaps not so shocking ? What do you guys think ? Some of the quotes I found really quite, as I said before, shocking.

http://jezebel.com/5866602/can-you-tell-the-difference-between-a-mens-magazine-and-a-rapist

I guessed almost all of them correctly. You can tell the rapey comments, about women "asking for it" based on what they are wearing. The other comments are devoid of any context, and TBH aren't any different to typical "lad" banter. Some of it may not be nice but it reflects the type of society we live in

action_now
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Dec 13 2011 23:45
Steven. wrote:
Some of it may not be nice but it reflects the type of society we live in

err, i think that's kind of the overarching criticism being made... your post just reads as some shitty apologism.

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Dec 13 2011 23:46
action_now wrote:
Steven. wrote:
Some of it may not be nice but it reflects the type of society we live in

err, i think that's kind of the overarching criticism being made... your post just reads as some shitty apologism.

Apologism? Really? How did you come to that conclusion?

action_now
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Dec 15 2011 08:44

.

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Dec 13 2011 23:57
action_now wrote:
Steven. wrote:
Some of it may not be nice but it reflects the type of society we live in

err, i think that's kind of the overarching criticism being made... your post just reads as some shitty apologism.

that's rich seeing your avatar

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Dec 14 2011 00:00
Steven. wrote:
action_now wrote:
Steven. wrote:
Some of it may not be nice but it reflects the type of society we live in

err, i think that's kind of the overarching criticism being made... your post just reads as some shitty apologism.

that's rich seeing your avatar

*facepalm*
and why is this?

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Dec 14 2011 00:16

action_now, I really don't get your point. it was not obvious at all what you were getting at. Now you have gone through the trouble of explaining yourself, it really seems to me like Steven.'s point has gone over your head. It seems to me that the sentence you chose to quote was actually pointing at wider societal/cultural problems that should not be isolated to specific examples of lads mags?

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Dec 14 2011 00:29
Arbeiten wrote:
It seems to me that the sentence you chose to quote was actually pointing at wider societal/cultural problems that should not be isolated to specific examples of lads mags?

nowhere said it was a probem, perhaps that was meant to be implicit. my bad. it is easy to misconstrue things on the net innit.
why ppl getting so hyped?

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Dec 14 2011 01:04
Steven. wrote:
I guessed almost all of them correctly.

Assuming the study had a decent methodology and sample size*, an anecdote doesn't refute the findings!

Steven. wrote:
You can tell the rapey comments, about women "asking for it" based on what they are wearing.

That's something accepted by 27% of the public, so doesn't suggest a sharp divide between rapists and the general population (in line with the apparent findings here).

Steven. wrote:
The other comments are devoid of any context, and TBH aren't any different to typical "lad" banter. Some of it may not be nice but it reflects the type of society we live in

I think that's the point? i.e. that rapists aren't exceptional, but reflect society (and obviously act on norms which otherwise perhaps remain as 'banter').

Polite Ire wrote:
The everyday acceptance of such a culture would suggest that ‘the rapist’ is not an exotic and unusual individual, but someone whose behaviour mirrors the expectation of male domination within society. Indeed empirical research has failed to find the “typical” rapist, instead evidence suggests that an environment in which men are expected to prove their manliness, that is to prove their dominance over women, results in a society in which rape is more prevalent.
Herman wrote:
In our society, men demonstrate their competence as people by being “masculine”. (p.49)

The social requirement for males to perform masculine qualities is thus indicative of a socially constructed gender binary. Where human attributes are divided in two, where men suppress the “feminine” and women suppress the “masculine”, rape becomes “the logical outcome” (Herman 52).

http://libcom.org/library/gender-power-struggle

* Apparently it's forthcoming in the British Journal of Psychology, so if it's accepted and passes peer review we'll know the answer if and when it appears. It's always worth being doubly sceptical about press releases like this: firstly cos they're written by PR people not the authors, secondly cos they refer to unpublished (and at this stage non-peer reviewed) research. But the apparent result is pretty unsurprising tbh.

zenkka
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Dec 14 2011 04:41
Steven. wrote:
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
Saw an animal rights nutter from the old local Croydon ALARM branch link this on facebook, shocking stuff, or perhaps not so shocking ? What do you guys think ? Some of the quotes I found really quite, as I said before, shocking.

http://jezebel.com/5866602/can-you-tell-the-difference-between-a-mens-magazine-and-a-rapist

I guessed almost all of them correctly. You can tell the rapey comments, about women "asking for it" based on what they are wearing. The other comments are devoid of any context, and TBH aren't any different to typical "lad" banter. Some of it may not be nice but it reflects the type of society we live in

Yeah, there is a difference in the way they sound. but then like, number 12 is really, really hard to distinguish. it sounds like something a serial rapist would say.

what makes this difficult for some of them (I got 5 wrong) isn't that the lad mag quotes sound like rapists, but that sometimes the less obvious rape references that are actually made by these rapists sound like the lad mag quotes.

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Dec 14 2011 10:20
Joseph Kay wrote:
I think that's the point? i.e. that rapists aren't exceptional, but reflect society (and obviously act on norms which otherwise perhaps remain as 'banter').

I actually read this study as the opposite i.e. "look how terrible lads' mags are, they use the same language as rapists!" rather than "look how terrible our society is, serial rapists are indistinguishable from banter"..

Yorkie Bar
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Dec 14 2011 13:32

I thought the lads mags quotes were a pretty mixed bunch tbh, like 3 and 15 I don't really have a problem with.

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Dec 14 2011 13:54
Yorkie Bar wrote:
I thought the lads mags quotes were a pretty mixed bunch tbh, like 3 and 15 I don't really have a problem with.

Are you saying that you didn't have a problem identifying 3 and 15 as mag and rapist respectively, or that you don't have a problem with what is stated in them?

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Dec 14 2011 14:08
Ed wrote:
I actually read this study as the opposite

No you didn't wink

Nobody's read the study, we're all working off a press release, or in fact the chinese whispers reportage of said press release. There might not even be a 'study', just a bit of PR.

There's all sorts of potential methodological problems here. There's obvious stuff like sample sizes (are they large enough to eliminate chance?) and selection (were they representative of the general population? were they a self-selecting subset?). There's also stuff like the selection criteria for the quotes. Did they cherry pick them to try and find the most similar ones? Or did they apply some kind of pairing criteria to match magazine quotes to rapists' by subject/keyword etc. Until the study is published, we've no way of knowing. This could be anything from a paid-for psuedo-study aimed at generating column inches which will never be published (a common marketing technique these days) to a rigorous academic study with a solid methodology which will sail through peer-review.

So yeah, you might be right. But we don't know. But like I say, all the literature i've ever seen on this has failed to find any reliable distinction between rapists and the general population, other than rapists have been caught and convicted of rape. So when 27% of the general population think women are 'asking for it' by wearing a short skirt (mentioned in 4/8 of the rapist quotes), there's a pretty big overlap between popular attitudes and rapists self-legitimation, so imho it would be completely unsurprising if there was an overlap between lads mags and rapists attitudes, since lads mags are likely to be above the societal average for suggesting scantily clad girls are gagging for it.

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Dec 14 2011 15:13

I actually read steven's comment the same way action_now did. I think I did so because that kind of language is often used to shut down feminist debate. I'm not saying you are Steven, but by (unconsciously?) echoing that kind of language you created a certain kind of reaction. Also, fuck nice. It's not 'nice' we're worried about.

As for BJJ - really? Is this thread seriously the place to talk about some girl's sexual desires? Wtf exactly is wrong with wanting to be dominated or indulge in age play in a consensual relationship? Ascribing 'daddy issues' is condescending as fuck. Instead of telling us you don't like it go and tell her that, openly and honestly.

I look forward to reading the study if/when it's published - from what I've read so far the results piss me off but they don't surprise me.

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Dec 14 2011 15:57
Ed wrote:
Joseph Kay wrote:
I think that's the point? i.e. that rapists aren't exceptional, but reflect society (and obviously act on norms which otherwise perhaps remain as 'banter').

I actually read this study as the opposite i.e. "look how terrible lads' mags are, they use the same language as rapists!" rather than "look how terrible our society is, serial rapists are indistinguishable from banter"..

In the press release, the authors of the study are most interested in how lads' mags influence mainstream culture:

uni Surrey press release wrote:
Dr Miranda Horvath and Dr Peter Hegarty argue that the findings are consistent with the possibility that lads’ mags normalise hostile sexism, by making it seem more acceptable when its source is a popular magazine.

Dr Horvath, lead researcher from Middlesex University, said: “We were surprised that participants identified more with the rapists’ quotes, and we are concerned that the legitimisation strategies that rapists deploy when they talk about women are more familiar to these young men than we had anticipated.”

[...] Miranda Horvath, is concerned that lads’ magazine editors are not working hard enough to moderate the content of their magazines: "A lot of debate around the regulation of lads’ mags has been to do with how they affect children but less has been said about the influence they have on their intended audience of young men and the women with whom those men socialise."

"These magazines support the legitimisation of sexist attitudes and behaviours and need to be more responsible about their portrayal of women, both in words and images. They give the appearance that sexism is acceptable and normal - when really it should be rejected and challenged. Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.”

Dr Peter Hegarty, of the University of Surrey’s Psychology Department, added: “There is a fundamental concern that the content of such magazines normalises the treatment of women as sexual objects. We are not killjoys or prudes who think that there should be no sexual information and media for young people. But are teenage boys and young men best prepared for fulfilling love and sex when they normalise views about women that are disturbingly close to those mirrored in the language of sexual offenders?”

He added that young men should be given credible sex education and not have to rely on lads’ mags as a source of information as they grow up.

http://www.surrey.ac.uk/mediacentre/press/2011/69535_are_sex_offenders_and_lads_mags_using_the_same_language.htm

lzbl wrote:
I actually read steven's comment the same way action_now did.

So did I btw.

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Dec 14 2011 16:02

Wow, I am really confused as to that reading embarrassed . Apology in order for action_now, sorry indeed!

BJJ I literally cannot make head or tail of what your post is supposed to be trying to say? What the hell man? Is it supposed to be black humour?

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Dec 14 2011 18:14
Ed wrote:
Joseph Kay wrote:
I think that's the point? i.e. that rapists aren't exceptional, but reflect society (and obviously act on norms which otherwise perhaps remain as 'banter').

I actually read this study as the opposite i.e. "look how terrible lads' mags are, they use the same language as rapists!" rather than "look how terrible our society is, serial rapists are indistinguishable from banter"..

that's how I read the news article as well - blaming lads mags for forwarding/perpetuating sexism which ultimately leads to more rape.

Of course, lads mags are a symptom and a reinforcer of patriarchal society. However, I don't think they are something in general worth getting upset about. I don't think they are particularly any worse than women's magazines at this either.

The main problem I would think is not so much specific quotes from the text, but the general objectivisation and sexualisation of women.

Like I said, I think the lads mag quotes are distinguishable from the rapists ones. Joseph correctly points out that the idea that women are partially responsible for their own rape if they dress provocatively is held by over a quarter of the population. However, this isn't something I have ever seen, or heard about anyone else seeing, in a men's magazine (if anyone has evidence to the contrary I will of course reassess my opinion, as this would be totally out of order).

Off the top of my head the only one that looked particularly bad was about "smashing that on a park bench". Of course the word "smash" is stupid and macho (although I still think you can use it in jest), but without the context you can't tell if anything is wrong with it. I mean if the context was "if you want to rape someone and not get caught red-handed…" then it would be bad, but I sincerely doubt that and think it would probably be more something to do with being unfaithful, which is douchey, but not rapey.

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Dec 14 2011 18:37
Steven. wrote:
Of course, lads mags are a symptom and a reinforcer of patriarchal society. However, I don't think they are something in general worth getting upset about. I don't think they are particularly any worse than women's magazines at this either.

Yes, women's magazines are bad at reinforcing gender roles. HOWEVER I would absolutely love it if you could show me an issue of Prima, Cosmopolitan, more! etc that actively encourages women to be a victim of sexual violence...they might focus on the home-making, child-bearing/rearing, clothes-wearing aspects of constructed female roles, which is bad, but I do not think they encourage the same kind of contempt for other genders that lad's mags do.

Steven. wrote:
Like I said, I think the lads mag quotes are distinguishable from the rapists ones.

I think you missed the point of the study.

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Dec 14 2011 18:51
lzbl wrote:
I actually read steven's comment the same way action_now did. I think I did so because that kind of language is often used to shut down feminist debate. I'm not saying you are Steven, but by (unconsciously?) echoing that kind of language you created a certain kind of reaction. Also, fuck nice. It's not 'nice' we're worried about.

As for BJJ - really? Is this thread seriously the place to talk about some girl's sexual desires? Wtf exactly is wrong with wanting to be dominated or indulge in age play in a consensual relationship? Ascribing 'daddy issues' is condescending as fuck. Instead of telling us you don't like it go and tell her that, openly and honestly.

I look forward to reading the study if/when it's published - from what I've read so far the results piss me off but they don't surprise me.

so a woman wanting to be called a whore is ok. A man wanting to dominate a woman sexually calling her a whore is sexist?

On a side note, is anything not condescending, sexist, terrible to you or what?

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Dec 14 2011 19:01

this which quote is which is a stupid way to push a point, like there are ones like glenn becks che or osama bin laden quote, here i will do a quote now.

Which quote belongs to Emma goldman and whioch to Ayn rand(without cheating if you know dont answer)

Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives.

Woman, essentially a purist, is naturally bigoted and relentless in her effort to make others as good as she thinks they ought to be.

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Dec 14 2011 19:01

Um, no, I quite clearly didn't say that. Domination and submission within a consensual relationship where it has been discussed and boundaries agreed is ok whoever the fuck starts it. Slut shaming (which is what you're doing) is NOT ok.

When you start saying things that aren't sexist I will stop calling you out for them.

BTW just in case you weren't paying attention in biology, basic signs like breasts, developed hips etc should tell you whether or not the person you're having sex with is a child or an adult woman with shaven pubic hair.

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Dec 14 2011 19:18

I never did biology, what year do they start teaching that? Anyway how am i shaming sluts, I am saying having a constant fetish to call a partner daddy and be dominated is pretty fucking disturbed and kind of selfish on the other partner.

If she wanted normal sex and I constantly wanted to call her a slut and be rough I would be the asshole sexist, but if she wants it its ok and just her desire.

Anyway my point was more a comment on how words like slut and whore are not always male instigated and not always inherently sexist as you said when used in a consensual relationship.
You just kinda went off on one and sidetracked me.

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Dec 14 2011 19:19

You really don't get patriarchy do you?

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Dec 14 2011 19:22

Yeah but your smarmy condescending overbearing shit makes me wanna argue with you.

You don't get real life do you.

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Dec 14 2011 19:25

oh come on BJJ, your being pathetic now. This is not the first time people on these boards have pulled you up for your ridiculous shit. There are pages and pages of people arguing with you about the nature of sexism and patriarchy. Go back and read them, because you obviously haven't taken one step further in understanding any of these issues. Your first post was completely pointless, nobody cares that you have a girlfriend and have sex. It didn't shed light on the issue in hand at all.