Reading Recommendations for a Fellow Anarchist

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Khawaga's picture
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Sep 30 2012 15:40

CA do you mistake democracy for its current political form, i.e. representation?

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Sep 30 2012 15:58
Khawaga wrote:
CA do you mistake democracy for its current political form, i.e. representation?

I gather you are not proponents of representative democracy smile More of a direct democracy of some kind... correct?

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Sep 30 2012 16:09

On that you're correct. But that still leaves what the heck you consider as democracy. But then again with your jihadi solipsism I guess anything that is decided by more people than yourself is authoritarian...

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Sep 30 2012 16:30
Khawaga wrote:
But then again with your jihadi solipsism I guess anything that is decided by more people than yourself is authoritarian...

That is indeed the definition of authoritarianism - I did quote Benjamin Tucker to that effect earlier. Anything that is not voluntary is tyrannical. So if democracy is involuntary it is also tyrannical. What difference does it make whether I am ruled by a majority, a minority, or even just one individual? All are types of slavery. The only legitimate state of affairs is one where each person does what he/she agrees to do.

I just want to make it clear that I do not oppose democracy, or any other system for that matter, from an a priori position. As long as it's voluntary and everyone agrees to participate, any system is fine by me. I don't want to meddle in other people's affairs as long as they don't meddle in mine.

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Sep 30 2012 16:34
Khawaga wrote:
CA do you mistake democracy for its current political form, i.e. representation?

Damnit Khawaga! wink I was trying to test my theory that Appleton just has to have the last say, by tricking him into posting a damning riposte to my single exclamation mark reply. Now you've ruined all my fun... cry

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Sep 30 2012 17:54
ComradeAppleton wrote:
I just want to make it clear that I do not oppose democracy, or any other system for that matter, from an a priori position. As long as it's voluntary and everyone agrees to participate, any system is fine by me. I don't want to meddle in other people's affairs as long as they don't meddle in mine.

Oh, I get it. As long as nobody questions or tampers with your dictatorship. Got it. We can all give this thread a rest now. There's no more clearing up to do.

omen
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Sep 30 2012 18:06

More capers and mayhem:

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Sep 30 2012 19:07
Owner of the 'Plot of Land' Enterprise, ComradeAppleton wrote:
Look, I have treated you quite well; so stop complaining. If I can remind you, this is a voluntary relationship.

Immigrant Worker wrote:
But mister, you don't pay well. It barely covers my food and housing costs. I may eventually be kicked out into the streets if I can't cover my rent.

Owner of the 'Plot of Land' Enterprise, ComradeAppleton wrote:
And? Do I look like I care? If you want to cover your expenses, you should try working longer and harder, instead of interrupting me while I'm busy debating these statists, who are all over the place like vultures, peering into my window, trying to take product.

Immigrant Worker wrote:
But this is no voluntary relationship. There's no where else to go. You own almost everything. There's no where else to make money other than being employed by you.

Owner of the 'Plot of Land' Enterprise, ComradeAppleton wrote:
Your wrong about that. Just look at reality. There's lots of workers out there making products and making money; if they can, so can you. Look, I'm always right and your wrong. Haven't you read the text to the official enterprise ideology I established here, Smithian-Randianism? It says your free, so deal with it, if you can't handle freedom.

Immigrant Worker wrote:
Well, me and my friends may join together to revolt and takeover your enterprise!

Owner of the 'Plot of Land' Enterprise, ComradeAppleton wrote:
Darn it. You want food, go get a job! ........Oh wait, you work for me. Well go back to work, and don't threaten to touch my product. Or else, I'll get my private security force on your ass. Every stretch of time that's wasted gives more time to my statist competitors to gain an advantage on me. Before you go, what is it that you do again?

Immigrant Worker wrote:
Make your product.

Owner of the 'Plot of Land' Enterprise, ComradeAppleton wrote:
What? You touch my product? Your one of them damn statists.

ComradeAppleton pulls out a rifle and kills the poor immigrant worker with a single shot to the head.

Owner of the 'Plot of Land' Enterprise, ComradeAppleton wrote:
As for them other statists you were planning to revolutionize with, I thought my racism kept you guys apart and separated. Oh well. I'll take care of them damn statists, muuuy haaa haa *cough* ha ha oo oo lla la ha ha!

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Sep 30 2012 19:20

I love the way communists just equate everyone who doesn't agree with them with murderers and exploiters while remaining completely blind to the dictatorship they are planning to impose...

Dear Agent of the Fifth International,

The worker owns the product of his/her labour. If you want to confiscate it or collectivise it, then sure I fully support his/her right to kill you. That's not murder, it's self-defense. If you deny workers the right of self-defense you really are a sorry tool and it would be great if you stopped associating yourself with any group which supports the welfare and rights of workers.

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Sep 30 2012 19:35

Three weeks later, as a result of his growing solipsism, ComradeAppleton is hiding in his closet, scared shivering, with his rifle close to his chest, and the 'Free Market' bible in his coat pocket.

Owner of the 'Plot of Land' Enterprise, ComradeAppleton wrote:
Oh man. I can't go back out there. I can't tell which one of them is either a statist or an actual worker, entrepreneur, the government, my parent, brother, and sister, a neighbor, a friend, the guy on TV, the individual, or whoever. This whole place is going rock bottom. Its like war out there. Oh, Jesus! Save me! Damn, I can't believe I said the name of the statist Jesus.

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Sep 30 2012 19:38

So CA, you actually support workers expropriating the property of capitalists? That's great! Workers have the right to the fruits of their labour means that wage-labour is impossible btw. No room for capitalists anymore. I am glad that you've finally come to your senses.

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Sep 30 2012 19:55
Khawaga wrote:
So CA, you actually support workers expropriating the property of capitalists? That's great! Workers have the right to the fruits of their labour means that wage-labour is impossible btw. No room for capitalists anymore. I am glad that you've finally come to your senses.

When did I ever say I did not support workers taking what the oppressors stole from them? I'm pretty sure I did (somewhere in this thread) express my full support for workers who want to seize the means of production from their current "owners". People like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett; these people are exploiters who haven't earned a penny of what they currently control. Not to mention that I have nothing against dealing with politicians the same way (although I would suggest being more merciful than the Romanians were toward Ceausescu).
I personally don't think it's a good idea to launch any revolution against the status quo because, of course, there is no chance of it succeeding. But if there ever is a sustained and promising effort made at such a revolution I would definitely not oppose it.

I think you miss the point entirely when you say that taking what the current elites have control of is 'property'. It's not property, it's just what they have grabbed and stolen from others by force. Hence, taking it back is not 'expropriation'. If someone stole your TV and you happened to grab it back would you call that 'expropriation'? No, you just call it returning the property to the rightful owner.

And once everyone owns their means of production - what problem is there left to solve? Why not just leave it at that and let the market function? That is what individualists have always said: Do not plan a new system, just let the people live.

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Sep 30 2012 20:08

Ah, I forgot that you still live in the 17th century. My bad.

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Sep 30 2012 21:04
Khawaga wrote:
Ah, I forgot that you still live in the 17th century. My bad.

No, I live in the 21st century, but you seem to be stuck at bronze age levels, where everyone in the tribe was like one big family...

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Sep 30 2012 21:12

Awwwww, that's such a nice sentiment. One big happy Kelly-family!

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Sep 30 2012 21:19

Nothing wrong with you living that way as long as you don't force others to go along with you!

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Sep 30 2012 21:35

But that's what you do!

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Sep 30 2012 22:13
Khawaga wrote:
But that's what you do!

Ah, not at all! All I do is say "to each his own".

There is a very interesting novel by John Henry Mackay titled The Anarchists. I think you should read it, then you will know what I mean.

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Sep 30 2012 23:26

The Adam Smith Institute held a prestigious ceremony in celebration of ComradeAppleton's lifelong dedication to fighting statists and upholding liberty. Upon receiving his trophy, he gave a speech to an inspired crowd.

ComradeAppleton wrote:
I have been killing statists throughout my whole life. I breath statists. I hear statists. I see statists everywhere. And I see it as my duty to kill statists. I know it can be hard sometimes. Personally, it can get a bit tragic. Like one time, I had to kill my future wife. One day, she came home from work extremely upset. I asked, 'what's wrong'. She said, 'my boss is hitting on me and it's getting a bit inappropriate'. I rightfully responded, 'your his "capital", and he can capitalize on you in whatever productive way he sees fit'. She went on about how nuts I was for saying such things. I grew suspicious of her. I asked her, 'do you object to my fellow entrepreneur using his own 'capital' in whatever way he likes?' Her answer proved my suspicion when she said yes. I told her, 'then you’re a STATE!' and I finished her off with my rifle.

ComradeAppleton was then interrupted by a sir sitting in the top-left balcony. It was Murray Rothbard and he yelled out:

Murray Rothbard wrote:
Man, you are nuts! You’re to the right my position. And nobody is supposed to be the right of my position. You’re crazy man.

Some people in the crowd agreed and started to make a frenzy. ComradeAppleton fired back:

ComradeAppleton wrote:
Shut up! Do you know how hard it is to fight statists?

ComradeAppleton then froze stiff as his imagination took over him. He was caught up in the memory of the time he fought off statists invading his enterprise, which can be seen in the link below (except he didn’t die, so excuse the ending).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6L8NFcMakk

He regained himself and continued speaking.

ComradeAppleton wrote:
I fought those statists. They were coming in from all directions. I yelled at them ‘you want a piece of my property? OK. Say hello to my little property!’ And I fired at them, BANG BANG! They were immigrants, too. And I stood up to them. How dare they come to take our jobs and claim our product?

And the audience overwhelmingly cheered in approval, including Murray Rothbard. They were moved by his passion for freedom. His words would be the inspiration for much activism on the right for years to come.

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Sep 30 2012 23:36

I really don't see how you find this at all applicable to me or amusing... I am a pacifist, so killing isn't anywhere in my scope of actions. You are the one who introduced that theme at all to this conversation.

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Sep 30 2012 23:38

I am guessing Agent of the Fifth International has conflated Renzo Novatore with some idealist crusader and is pretending that this oxymoronic mixture has something to do with individualism.

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Oct 1 2012 00:29
ComradeAppleton wrote:
I really don't see how you find this at all applicable to me or amusing... I am a pacifist, so killing isn't anywhere in my scope of actions. You are the one who introduced that theme at all to this conversation.

ComradeAppleton wrote:
The worker owns the product of his/her labour. If you want to confiscate it or collectivise it, then sure I fully support his/her right to kill you. That's not murder, it's self-defense.

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Oct 1 2012 00:34
Agent of the Fifth International wrote:
ComradeAppleton wrote:
I really don't see how you find this at all applicable to me or amusing... I am a pacifist, so killing isn't anywhere in my scope of actions. You are the one who introduced that theme at all to this conversation.

ComradeAppleton wrote:
The worker owns the product of his/her labour. If you want to confiscate it or collectivise it, then sure I fully support his/her right to kill you. That's not murder, it's self-defense.

Don't pretend to accuse me now. I wrote that in reply to your idiotic statements about killing.

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Oct 1 2012 13:00

That's settled then: CA advocates genocide of all those who disagree with him? That's pretty low CA. You can't go around committing genocide willy nilly.

jolasmo
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Oct 1 2012 16:36

So Comrade Appleton, can I just see if I've got this straight? I find it helps me if I use examples, so here goes:

Scenario #1

A man owns a house with a garden that contains some apple trees. He works hard all year round tending to the trees, or whatever, and when autumn comes he's got a ripe crop of apples reader to be picked. One day he takes a stroll in his garden and finds a young girl has snuck onto his property, uninvited, and has picket an apple which she has just taken a bite out of. From looking at her emaciated body, he can tell she is clearly starving and close to death. When she sees that he has seen her, she immediately bursts into tears and apologises, saying that she has not eaten in weeks. In response, the man breaks her neck with his bare hands.

So, in the above situation, the man who owns the apples is clearly in the right. Here, I'm going by your statement to the effect that "The worker owns the product of his/her labour. If you want to confiscate it or collectivise it, then sure I fully support his/her right to kill you. That's not murder, it's self-defense." The starving child in this case is essentially the same as Stalin or Hitler, in that they are doing something coercive, and are therefore the state.

Scenario #2

I have baked a yummy chocolate cake and left it on the kitchen counter-top to cool. My housemate, Bill, walks in and sees the cake. "May I please have a slice of cake Jo?" he asks. "Why yes of course you may!" I respond, "here, let me cut us both a slice." We sit down to enjoy our cake and a moment later our third housemate, Emma, walks in. "Oooh, goody, cake!" she exclaims, and without asking goes on to cut herself a slice of cake. I take her outside, douse her in petrol and set her on fire.

Again, my understanding here is that - as Emma has tried to confiscate the fruits of my labour (in this case a slice of cake, but that, as I understand it, is irrelevant to the broader issue at hand) - that I am well within my rights to kill her. After all she has coerced me, and I am only acting in self defence.

Scenario #3

A Mr Borj Wazzee acquires a chemical works through free exchange with the people who constructed it. He enters into a contractual relationship with several individuals to assist him in carrying out the daily running of the factory. According to the terms of this agreement he is tasked with the administrative side of things, sitting in an office for a few hours each day and overseeing the running of the plant. Everyone else gets to work 12 hour shifts 6 days a week in sweltering heat, while inhaling the noxious fumes given off by the chemical works.

After some time the other workers in the factory become sick from the fumes given off by the plant. They discuss it amongst themselves, and one of their number decides to go and talk to their employer about their plight. "Mr Wazzee," he says, "these chemical fumes are making us really ill - could we please have some safety equipment?"

Borj turns the question over in his head for a moment. "I should say... not!" he exclaims, and chortles at his own joke. "Now run along will you, I have managerial duties to attend to."

The very next day, his entire workforce turns up at his office at 9 am, just when they should have started work (according to the free and fair contract that they had all agreed to). Their families were there too, and their friends and loved ones. He was pretty shocked, but he was still more gobsmacked when the assembled crowd produced a spokesperson, the very same worker from the day before, who announced that the workers were stopping work until he provided them with the safety equipment they required. The assembled crowd loudly voiced their support for this proposal.

Whereupon Borj entered into a free and consensual arrangement with a second group of people. This second group acquired a collection of knives, clubs, and automatic weapons, who went round to the striking workers houses as they slept, and killed them in their beds, along with their families, and their friends and loved ones, and anyone else who had aided and abetted them in their action.

Here, applying the same logic as above, I am assuming that Borj is in the right (defending his property and his contractual rights against an attempt to force a - limited - collectivism upon him) and the workers and their allies are acting as the state. How fortunate it is for Mr Wazzee that he had the means to secure a second contract to defend his rights!

~J.

omen
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Oct 1 2012 17:55

The third scenario needed an illustration, I think:

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Oct 1 2012 18:49

I found everything he wrote in that second thread he made every bit as dishonest as he was in this thread.

ComradeAppleton wrote:
So I've been thinking - what are the real differences between mutualism and libertarian communism? I mean in theory there seems to be a gulf between them, but in practice I think there really isn't............but I think that this is really a matter of theory. In terms of practical approaches it doesn't seem like it would be a problem for me to live in a communist world.

Yeah, after going around in circles 477 times over terminologies, you really get it now. Your no longer dreaming. Your sincere about giving up your desire for your own dictatorship.

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Oct 1 2012 18:47

In theory, he says its the worst thing ever, far worse then Hitler and Stalin. It makes him willing to shoot somebody. But in practice, he can handle it. No problem. In fact, it will be his pleasure.

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Oct 2 2012 12:09
Agent of the Fifth International wrote:
In theory, he says its the worst thing ever, far worse then Hitler and Stalin. It makes him willing to shoot somebody. But in practice, he can handle it. No problem. In fact, it will be his pleasure.

Yes, to Appleton, communism is like the television show Friends.

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Oct 2 2012 12:23

Looks like he's bogged off for now. I was thinking of posting a picture of a tumbleweed to that other thread he started, asking for new reading recommendations (and after he ignored the ones given at the start of this thread, I can't imagine why his new thread didn't prove very popular) but decided to let it die in peace.

Also, maybe I've been watching far too many episodes of Columbo, but that recent short-lived "market economy?" thread in the theory forum got my spidey-sense tingling:

Maybe I'm wide of the mark, but it looked awfully suspicious to me. (The OP signed up, posted a drive by thread about a topic close to CA's heart, and never returned.)