Religious Fundamentalists, Fascists and Borders

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potrokin
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Jan 23 2017 22:54
Religious Fundamentalists, Fascists and Borders

In an anarchist society, borders are not supposed to exist. However, in a post-revolutionary society and during a revolution even, would it not be too crazy an idea to expel certain people who live here (such as our own fascists and religious fundies- though during such a period they may well die as our enemies) and keep out religious fundamentalists and fascists from the rest of the world? Wouldn't that require some kind of border system? Especially as neighbouring countries would likely be our capitalist enemies. I think it would require intelligence work but would it mean borders of some type? Or am I mistaken?

zugzwang
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Jan 24 2017 06:49

I think most anarchist-flavored intentional communities (communes and so on) democratically decide who to let in. I personally can't fathom there ever being a "let-anyone-in" policy for any kind of society or community, so I think borders are necessary in that sense.

potrokin
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Jan 24 2017 15:16
zugzwang wrote:
I think most anarchist-flavored intentional communities (communes and so on) democratically decide who to let in. I personally can't fathom there ever being a "let-anyone-in" policy for any kind of society or community, so I think borders are necessary in that sense.

Interesting. Thankyou for replying to my question.

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Auld-bod
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Jan 24 2017 16:46

If a communist society does not strive to be inclusive and people are free to partition off land for their exclusive use (I’m not talking here about someone wishing a plot, to grow their own food), then the stage would be set for a competition for resources. So we’d be back to square one, my land, my border, my property. To hell with transition phases - they last forever.

radicalgraffiti
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Jan 24 2017 16:58

after a successfully anarchist revolution anarchism would be global, where would you expel reactionary to, where would you prevent them coming from?
if anarchism had only succeeded in one territory or a limited number of areas ie the revolution was still ongoing, the the kind of measures that are necessary to prevent against military invasion are completely unlike those required to check the papers of every ordinary traveller.
its impossible to be sure what measures would be necessary in such a situation because they would be determined by the circumstances of the time which we cant know. I do think that expelling reactionaries would be a terrible idea since reactionary who flee during revolutions they tend to come back with cia guns, far better to keep them where you can see them.

radicalgraffiti
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Jan 24 2017 17:01
zugzwang wrote:
I think most anarchist-flavored intentional communities (communes and so on) democratically decide who to let in. I personally can't fathom there ever being a "let-anyone-in" policy for any kind of society or community, so I think borders are necessary in that sense.

you cant fathom something that exists within virtually every country in the world? do you need a visa to travel to the next city? do you have to show your passport when you enter?

zugzwang
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Jan 25 2017 02:15
radicalgraffiti wrote:
zugzwang wrote:
I think most anarchist-flavored intentional communities (communes and so on) democratically decide who to let in. I personally can't fathom there ever being a "let-anyone-in" policy for any kind of society or community, so I think borders are necessary in that sense.

you cant fathom something that exists within virtually every country in the world? do you need a visa to travel to the next city? do you have to show your passport when you enter?

Well, there are still police in every city. You can't just move to another city and begin working or living on someone else's property. I suppose what I was getting at is defending an anarchist society/community. I don't think it would be wise to allow outside fascists, people who are hostile to the very idea of an anarchist vision, to integrate into a community and potentially sabotage what's being done. Most intentional communities don't just allow anyone to join; new members are assessed, interviewed, voted on, etc. Wouldn't there need to be some kind of assessment of anyone trying to work and live somewhere? Didn't the Free Territory of Ukraine have a protective army to fight against the Bolsheviks and other fascist forces?

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Khawaga
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Jan 24 2017 23:02

Spot on, radicalgraffiti.

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Auld-bod
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Jan 25 2017 19:12

Zugzwang #7
‘Didn't the Free Territory of Ukraine have a protective army to fight against the Bolsheviks and other fascist forces?’

The example you give is a good one, as it describes the dangers if the revolution does not quickly spread and instead becomes isolated.

‘Free communism’ is impossible to sustain if the revolution is contained, and it then requires a ‘protective army’ to withstand its enemies. The revolution must be worldwide, or the same fate which befell the Ukrainian anarchists (and also in a different fashion the Bolsheviks) would eventually smother it. Capitalism and free communism cannot co-exist. I believe the ruling class must be overcome quickly as a protracted revolutionary war even if successful, would leave the new society scarred. Capitalism in the pursuit of profit ignores borders and so must the working class.

potrokin
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Jan 25 2017 23:12
Auld-bod wrote:
Zugzwang #7
‘Didn't the Free Territory of Ukraine have a protective army to fight against the Bolsheviks and other fascist forces?’

The example you give is a good one, as it describes the dangers if the revolution does not quickly spread and instead becomes isolated.

‘Free communism’ is impossible to sustain if the revolution is contained, and it then requires a ‘protective army’ to withstand its enemies. The revolution must be worldwide, or the same fate which befell the Ukrainian anarchists (and also in a different fashion the Bolsheviks) would eventually smother it. Capitalism and free communism cannot co-exist. I believe the ruling class must be overcome quickly as a protracted revolutionary war even if successful, would leave the new society scarred. Capitalism in the pursuit of profit ignores borders and so must the working class.

Those are very good points Auldbod, well said.