Revleft Refugee

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Book O'Dead's picture
Book O'Dead
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Jul 31 2012 13:54
Revleft Refugee

Hello,

I call myself Book O'Dead.

I was just recently banned from Revleft without so much as a warning and no reason was stated.
I had been involved in some very contentious arguments there over the past few days, particularly regarding my stand on the upcoming U.S. elections as well as against expressions I perceived as extremist.

I consider myself a Marxist-De Leonist, although I don't think that label had much to do with my expulsion from that forum.

Revleft, I think, is dominated and "moderated" by persons whose politics and methods are questionable, if not unprincipled. AFAICS, they do not practice any of the traditional values of dissent nor do they consistently abide by any of the accepted rules of engagement in discussion. They allow uncivil behavior on the part of some users but are quick to censure any defensive response that that uncivil behavior provokes.

I hope I fare better at libcom.

Rob Ray's picture
Rob Ray
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Jul 31 2012 20:45

You might find us a bit extreme as well if you think the electoral game is worthwhile, but hello and welcome to the boards smile.

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Ed
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Jul 31 2012 20:57

Yeah, Rob has a point there about elections but we don't like dictators (except as amusing pictures next to our names when we post) or their states and as long as you're up for engaging with others in good faith then you're welcome here.. all the best! smile

PS Can I say that I've never posted on RevLeft, but the amount of people coming onto libcom with their horror stories makes me think that place is some kind of internet Lord of the Flies..

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An Coileach
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Jul 31 2012 21:10

Howdy

Another purge victim? Join the club.

jonthom's picture
jonthom
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Aug 1 2012 08:48

fwiw, I read RevLeft every so often since there's sometimes interesting bits of news that get posted there. the level of debate however is dire; mostly seems to be made up of American teenage fanboys debating who was more awesome, Hoxha, Tito, Stalin or Trotsky, on about the same level as picking your favourite Power Ranger...

That said, welcome smile I do recognise your username from there, hopefully you'll find libcom a bit more amenable. I'm curious; what is it on revleft you found "extremist"?

Railyon's picture
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Aug 1 2012 09:29
jonthom wrote:
American teenage fanboys debating who was more awesome, Hoxha, Tito, Stalin or Trotsky, on about the same level as picking your favourite Power Ranger...

This is so true, it hurts...

Jason Cortez
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Aug 1 2012 09:43

Oh no not a thread moaning about another forum twisted Welcome

Book O'Dead's picture
Book O'Dead
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Aug 1 2012 20:10
jonthom wrote:
fwiw, I read RevLeft every so often since there's sometimes interesting bits of news that get posted there. the level of debate however is dire; mostly seems to be made up of American teenage fanboys debating who was more awesome, Hoxha, Tito, Stalin or Trotsky, on about the same level as picking your favourite Power Ranger...

That said, welcome smile I do recognise your username from there, hopefully you'll find libcom a bit more amenable. I'm curious; what is it on revleft you found "extremist"?

Adolescent fools that call for armed insurrection and post-revolutionary show trials without discernment of current circumstance and without anyone mature enough or grounded enough to challenge their puerile and dangerous fantasies.

Childish idiots who presume to call themselves Marxists without understanding anything about Marxism or having put it the necessary years of study and experience to adopt that honorable title.

Individuals who, out of ignorance or malice, slander and defame the memory of Karl Marx and other great revolutionaries who gave their lives fighting to educate, raise our proletarian class consciousness and teach us about the necessity for our own emancipation.

Ultra-radical posers who rarely hesitated to indiscriminately express bigoted sentiments against religion without regard for the long and honorable history of leftist radicalism among people of faith.

Dogmatists and partyless sectarians who sneer at the ecumenical basis of genuine proletarian communism.

Half-baked, incompetent moderators who share those vices and encourage suspicious newcomers to initiate sterile and superstitious arguments about ghosts and UFO's.

Suspicious newcomers who pair up to congratulate each other for their worthless contributions and impolitic assertions.

Almost every time I raised a reasoned objection against these crypto-reactionaries who adorn the profiles with heroic-looking avatars and ridiculous, egocentric eponyms I was assailed with accusations of trolling, of trying to derail the discussion, of being a pro-capitalist liberal, etc. and was frequently threatened with 'restriction' or banning.

All of that leads me to believe that Revleft is a nest of agent provocateurs and, yes, "fanboys" who are easy pickings to be sheared like dumb, docile sheep.

Wheew! Got that out of my system!

Railyon's picture
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Aug 1 2012 20:19
Book O'Dead wrote:
Adolescent fools that call for armed insurrection and post-revolutionary show trials without discernment of current circumstance and without anyone mature enough or grounded enough to challenge their puerile and dangerous fantasies.

Because, ironically (or not? dun dun dunnnn) they ban all the sound-as-fuck posters. Leaving only those toeing the party line...

I have some positive memories of the place though, mainly a chance to talk to some decent people not adhering to my own specific tendency who broadened the scope of my political thinking. The rest was pretty awful, especially Opposing Ideologies lol.

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Arbeiten
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Aug 1 2012 23:17

I go to revleft to remind myself that there are a lot of shit people out there, even people who should be 'on side'. It is usually quite funny read though, especially the stalin apologists.

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Aug 2 2012 00:03
Arbeiten wrote:
I go to revleft to remind myself that there are a lot of shit people out there, even people who should be 'on side'. It is usually quite funny read though, especially the stalin apologists.

It's my opinion that Stalinism, like right-wing conservatism, is a sign of abject political immaturity.

The most immediate--and perhaps superficial--explanation I can offer for the popularity of Stalin worship among many Revleft loonies is the appeal of Stalinist iconography; a grotesque combination of neoclassicism and Medieval Russian Orthodox art rendered in cartoon format.

syndicalist
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Aug 2 2012 00:50

Greetings. While not a DeLeonist, many ex-SLPers have gone on to become good libertarian socialists.....But the deLeonist wing in Sctoland way back when had a pretty interesting track history ..... No, I'm not Scottish (US), just found them to have an interesting working class rooted history.

Comrade, I would echo whay others have said. Most of us here are anti-parlimentary and pro-syndicalist (or councilist).

BTW, another topic, but I'd be interested in your take on "Black Flame" analysis on DeLeon and syndicalism.[http://black-flame-anarchism.blogspot.com/ --- http://libcom.org/library/reviewing-black-flame ]

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Aug 2 2012 01:11
syndicalist wrote:
Greetings. While not a DeLeonist, many ex-SLPers have gone on to become good libertarian socialists.....But the deLeonist wing in Sctoland way back when had a pretty interesting track history ..... No, I'm not Scottish (US), just found them to have an interesting working class rooted history.

Comrade, I would echo whay others have said. Most of us here are anti-parlimentary and pro-syndicalist (or councilist).

BTW, another topic, but I'd be interested in your take on "Black Flame" analysis on DeLeon and syndicalism.[http://black-flame-anarchism.blogspot.com/ --- http://libcom.org/library/reviewing-black-flame ]

The author makes only a passing reference to De Leon (hardly an analysis!). He states this in regard to De Leon:

Quote:
(Including explicit Marxists who denounced anarchism, such as the authoritarian and sectarian De Leon, as part of the anarchist tradition also seems quirky to me, although the key point is correct: they contributed to the broader syndicalist movement.)

While agree with his inference that De Leon contributed significantly to the discussion of syndicalism, I disagree with his characterization of De Leon.

De Leon was a disciplinarian and was quite willing to reach out to anyone as long a certain fundamental principles of political economy and sociology were not compromised.

No doubt his uncompromising attitude regarding Marxian economics, the class struggle and organizational discipline earned him the reproach of many.

Elsewhere in this forum I contributed my 2 cents worth to a discussion about council communism and syndicalism.

Cheers and Warm Fraternal Embrace!

syndicalist
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Aug 2 2012 03:07
Quote:
De Leon was a disciplinarian

Yes, this is the standard line I've seen deLeonists use. I believe there's even an old SLP (US) pamphlet by (I think Arnold Peterson) on this matter. I suppose one person's "disciplinarian" is another persons authoritarian. groucho

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Aug 2 2012 03:53
syndicalist wrote:
Quote:
De Leon was a disciplinarian

Yes, this is the standard line I've seen deLeonists use. I believe there's even an old SLP (US) pamphlet by (I think Arnold Peterson) on this matter. I suppose one person's "disciplinarian" is another persons authoritarian. groucho

I suppose it depends on how you define the terms or if you consider them synonymous. I don't.

I define "authoritarian" as someone who believes in the arbitrary, non-consensual imposition of rule, whereas a "disciplinarian" is someone who maintains that genuine discipline, collective & individual, is self-imposed, voluntary and democratic.

You will never find real De Leonists talking about "leaders" or wishing to inflict "leaders" upon its adherents. In fact, if you study De Leonist literature carefully (especially the SLP's) you will never find it referring to its elected officials as leaders. We believe the concept of leadership to be obsolete, bourgeois and antagonistic to the true cause of socialism.

Believe me, I've lived long enough and seen enough to state with absolute certainty that De Leonism is the most misunderstood doctrine among the present-day radicals of the world. To the detriment of the cause of socialism it has been unjustly maligned and belittled since De Leon's day.

A fraternal embrace.

petey
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Aug 2 2012 04:50

welcome bo'd. like many other yanks of *a certain age* i followed the SLP press and i subscribed to the people for a while. i could never decide if deleon was as bad as all those people said he was. perhaps in person he was difficult, in his writings he doesn't come across too horribly. there was that comment about "the bummery" but i don't know the whole context.

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Aug 2 2012 05:08
petey wrote:
welcome bo'd. like many other yanks of *a certain age* i followed the SLP press and i subscribed to the people for a while. i could never decide if deleon was as bad as all those people said he was. perhaps in person he was difficult, in his writings he doesn't come across too horribly. there was that comment about "the bummery" but i don't know the whole context.

Thanks.

BTW, I'm not a member of the SLP or of any other political party. Not because I wouldn't want to but because there is no SLP to join or any other that comes even close to it.

But I'm always hopeful that the events of Chicago 1905 will be repeated and that one great union will be reborn and that it, in turn, will set afoot a new party of labor that will shake capitalist rule to its very foundation.

If history indeed repeats itself for the capitalist, it must surely repeat itself for us.

A fraternal embrace.

syndicalist
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Aug 2 2012 05:15

"there is no SLP"

Some time ago I asked whether the SLP actually folded [ http://libcom.org/forums/north-america/demise-de-leonist-slp-12122008 ]. I gather they must've ... but the (ex)National Secty. continues to build up the De Leon archive on MIA .... so I guess the squirrell is busy gathering chestnuts before the final hibernation.

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Aug 2 2012 05:29
Railyon wrote:
Book O'Dead wrote:
Adolescent fools that call for armed insurrection and post-revolutionary show trials without discernment of current circumstance and without anyone mature enough or grounded enough to challenge their puerile and dangerous fantasies.

Because, ironically (or not? dun dun dunnnn) they ban all the sound-as-fuck posters. Leaving only those toeing the party line...

I have some positive memories of the place though, mainly a chance to talk to some decent people not adhering to my own specific tendency who broadened the scope of my political thinking. The rest was pretty awful, especially Opposing Ideologies lol.

Yeah, I can think of one recent instance where I was edified by one contribution: Someone posted a video of a French professor explaining the meaning and merits of demarchy. I think I learned from that video what I should have known years ago in college, when a very enlightened political philosophy teacher tried to get me to read an extra-curricular book about demarchy.

Demarchy is a valuable concept that I now realize should probably be a part of our future industrial republic of labor.

A fraternal embrace

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Aug 2 2012 05:38
syndicalist wrote:
"there is no SLP"

Some time ago I asked whether the SLP actually folded [ http://libcom.org/forums/north-america/demise-de-leonist-slp-12122008 ]. I gather they must've ... but the (ex)National Secty. continues to build up the De Leon archive on MIA .... so I guess the squirrell is busy gathering chestnuts before the final hibernation.

Apt metaphor!

Jason Cortez
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Aug 2 2012 13:47
Book O'Dead wrote:
jonthom wrote:
fwiw, I read RevLeft every so often since there's sometimes interesting bits of news that get posted there. the level of debate however is dire; mostly seems to be made up of American teenage fanboys debating who was more awesome, Hoxha, Tito, Stalin or Trotsky, on about the same level as picking your favourite Power Ranger...

That said, welcome smile I do recognise your username from there, hopefully you'll find libcom a bit more amenable. I'm curious; what is it on revleft you found "extremist"?

Adolescent fools that call for armed insurrection and post-revolutionary show trials without discernment of current circumstance and without anyone mature enough or grounded enough to challenge their puerile and dangerous fantasies.

Childish idiots who presume to call themselves Marxists without understanding anything about Marxism or having put it the necessary years of study and experience to adopt that honorable title.

Individuals who, out of ignorance or malice, slander and defame the memory of Karl Marx and other great revolutionaries who gave their lives fighting to educate, raise our proletarian class consciousness and teach us about the necessity for our own emancipation.

Ultra-radical posers who rarely hesitated to indiscriminately express bigoted sentiments against religion without regard for the long and honorable history of leftist radicalism among people of faith.

Dogmatists and partyless sectarians who sneer at the ecumenical basis of genuine proletarian communism.

Half-baked, incompetent moderators who share those vices and encourage suspicious newcomers to initiate sterile and superstitious arguments about ghosts and UFO's.

Suspicious newcomers who pair up to congratulate each other for their worthless contributions and impolitic assertions.

Almost every time I raised a reasoned objection against these crypto-reactionaries who adorn the profiles with heroic-looking avatars and ridiculous, egocentric eponyms I was assailed with accusations of trolling, of trying to derail the discussion, of being a pro-capitalist liberal, etc. and was frequently threatened with 'restriction' or banning.

All of that leads me to believe that Revleft is a nest of agent provocateurs and, yes, "fanboys" who are easy pickings to be sheared like dumb, docile sheep.

Wheew! Got that out of my system!

going by this, you won't want to stay here too long.

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Aug 2 2012 14:00

Hey personally as an ignorant Marx-defaming pretend Marxist individualist poseur with a hatred for all things godly and a penchant for fantasising about who I'd put up against the wall first (probably our secret alien overlords) I welcome the debate grin.

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Aug 2 2012 15:52
Rob Ray wrote:
Hey personally as an ignorant Marx-defaming pretend Marxist individualist poseur with a hatred for all things godly and a penchant for fantasising about who I'd put up against the wall first (probably our secret alien overlords) I welcome the debate grin.

I doubt my rant describes you in any significant way. Or maybe, to be fair, it describes you, me and just about anyone else at certain points in our lives.

I wrote it without malice.

A fraternal embrace.

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Aug 2 2012 16:19

Don't worry I'm just being facetious wink

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Aug 3 2012 14:18

future industrial republic of labor
Sounds scary.

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Aug 3 2012 15:54
Melancholy of Resistance wrote:
future industrial republic of labor
Sounds scary.

How so?

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Aug 3 2012 19:51

No idea what it means but sounds like some kind of nation where everybody works in a factory. No classes except the one class, and that one is defined by neverending industrial labour.

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Aug 3 2012 21:00
Melancholy of Resistance wrote:
No idea what it means but sounds like some kind of nation where everybody works in a factory. No classes except the one class, and that one is defined by neverending industrial labour.

I think I understand the visualization you describe. I concede that the vagueness of the phrase I used easily lends itself to that.

If you had to, what formal name would you give to a classless society that describes your own vision of socialism?

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Aug 3 2012 21:20

I would just call it communism.

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Aug 3 2012 21:35

Full communism, to distinguish it from the Soviet Union.

HIGHER PHASE OR BUST, or something

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Aug 3 2012 21:47
Khawaga wrote:
I would just call it communism.

I was looking for another answer, something like the "republic of emancipated labor" or some other such bombast.

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