Talking about love/sex on forums

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Auld-bod's picture
Auld-bod
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Jan 6 2018 14:33

Are you being forced to read it?

radicalgraffiti
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Jan 6 2018 17:13
Sike wrote:
Juan Conatz wrote:
This is currently, and by far, the worse thread on libcom.

I feel the same way. I have absolutely no interest in reading about the love/sex lives of anyone that frequents libcom.

and yet if thats what it were about it would be a vast improvement over Noa's uninformed ramblings about trans people and hentai

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Jan 6 2018 18:24
radicalgraffiti wrote:
Sike wrote:
Juan Conatz wrote:
This is currently, and by far, the worse thread on libcom.

I feel the same way. I have absolutely no interest in reading about the love/sex lives of anyone that frequents libcom.

and yet if thats what it were about it would be a vast improvement over Noa's uninformed ramblings about trans people and hentai

Feel free to point out where my expertise is lacking. I don't doubt that you are more than able to "put me in my place", but precisely because it does relate to sexuality, you limit yourself to sniping. And I don't blame you. I entirely get the common sense reasons for not discussing it on forums. I'm just saying that if people want to get into those things, they are free to do so here too (since they do already on social media). I personally don't find it interesting to hear about people's "tastes" in music either for example. The advantage of forums, unlike social media, is that you can choose just not to read it (like Auld-bod said). Furthermore I think it's necessary to ask some of the cocky regular posters here in advance, to be respectful to posters who do want to share their tastes/experiences.

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Jan 6 2018 18:34
Auld-bod wrote:
Are you being forced to read it?

You'd think, eh. Much as I wouldn't always agree with Noa's writings in this thread (and others), it's infinitely preferable to the comments from some of the po-faced smacked arses on here. Good grief.

cactus9
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Jan 6 2018 19:43

I can't really make out if the question is about personal discussions of love and sex on forums, or political discussions and the answers didn't make it any clearer for me.

As far as personal discussions go, well it's the internet, you can find anything, it just depends. Personally I wouldn't really expect to find it on libcom so much, not because it exposes people politically, although maybe it does, just because it keeps it neater in some way. Likewise I might choose not to discuss it elsewhere due to privacy concerns, but everyone is different.

I think political discussions of love and sex are relevant and I don't see why these topics should be priviledged as off-limits.

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Jan 7 2018 10:04
cactus9 wrote:
I can't really make out if the question is about personal discussions of love and sex on forums, or political discussions

I meant personal discussions. Personal preferences can be politicized though i.e. accused of sexism, etc. (most obviously in case of posting erotic pictures). That could be another reason why forum posters tend to avoid the topic of love/sex at all. Not that I expect libcom to become a place for "hooking-up", but Eduard Bernstein defended the placement of personal ads (for love) in socialist newspapers, saying this is a modern way of how workers manage to meet a partner.

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Jan 7 2018 11:29
radicalgraffiti wrote:
and yet if thats what it were about it would be a vast improvement over Noa's uninformed ramblings about trans people and hentai

Agreed. When I first encountered the thread I thought that that it was posted with that intention but it seems that it has turned into something entirely different.

Auld-bod wrote:
Are you being forced to read it?

Your right, I'm not being forced to read it and I do regret the offhand comment that i made earlier.

In retrospect, workers who don't fit into heteronormative categories of sexuality are forced contend with oppression throughout their lives and might indeed look to forums such as we have here as safe places where they can come to discuss their concerns in an atmosphere of sincerity. Furthermore, I think that the forums should endeavor to provide a welcoming environment for those who may be contending with oppression because of their unconventional but consensual sex/love lives and that poorly thought out comments such as that which I posted earlier aren't at all conducive of such ends.

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Jan 7 2018 18:56
Sike wrote:
radicalgraffiti wrote:
and yet if thats what it were about it would be a vast improvement over Noa's uninformed ramblings about trans people and hentai

Agreed. When I first encountered the thread I thought that that it was posted with that intention but it seems that it has turned into something entirely different.

Sexuality is a very broad concept, which includes "gender". So talking about fashion, erotic art, sex stereotypes, etc. is not something entirely different. Those topics are lighter to approach and thus I hope easier for everyone to participate/start discussion. Otherwise we get a ridiculous formal type of discourse like in a group therapy session (or AA-meeting but then for sexual experiences).

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Jan 8 2018 22:17

Lol at the people who tried to shit on me for saying this thread was bad. Now look where it is. Called it. Kill this thread with fire, nothing useful is happening. Fucking 'a trans'. Get out

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Jan 9 2018 13:37
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me for saying this thread was bad. Now look where it is.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy though. If all you do, is "meta-comment" on the purpose/success of the thread, without engaging the content, then naturally the thread goes nowhere. Case in point: arguing about grammar:

Quote:
Fucking 'a trans'.

I very well know 'trans' is an adjective and explained I was referring to the term "woman" I used earlier in the same sentence. And I have used "trans person" without any problem later on in this thread.

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Jan 10 2018 13:19

***BANTER ALERT (only for people with a willingness to engage lighthearted discussion of "unimportant" things like sex)***

Continuing my discussion of Japanese ero-comics, apparently the tentacle genre was created as a response to censorship of depictions of the penis:

Leaders within the tentacle porn industry have stated that much of their work was initially directed at circumventing this policy. The animator Toshio Maeda stated:

Quote:
“At that time pre-Urotsuki Doji, it was illegal to create a sensual scene in bed. I thought I should do something to avoid drawing such a normal sensual scene. So I just created a creature. His tentacle is not a penis as a pretext. I could say, as an excuse, this is not a penis; this is just a part of the creature. You know, the creatures, they don't have a gender. A creature is a creature. So it is not obscene - not illegal. (“Manga Artist Interview Series (Part 1),” 2002)”

Toshio Maeda began reading manga when he was 5 or 6 years old, including American comics such as Mighty Mouse, Spider-Man and Batman.

I see his drawing style as entirely indistinct from the standard western. I would guess this is true for most Japanese ero-animators up to the 1980s. If there was some innovative change (improvement) in style in the 1990s, why did this happen and who were the pioneers?

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Jan 12 2018 16:49

Disgust: Theory and History of a Strong Sensation (2003) by Winfried Menninghaus (ToC) casts a curious look on sexuality. Let me quote part of a Kafka story, not translated elsewhere AFAIK:

The posthumously published fragment, “On What Is Your Power Based?” incorporates nearly all the elements of Kafka’s imagination of “fat women.” It involves a conversation between two men, one of whom admires the other for his power, “resolution,” and “conviction,” and asks about the origin of this power. The answer—“my power is based on my two wives”—meets with disbelief and entails some surprising revelations:

“Do you mean the women I saw in your kitchen yesterday?”
“Yes.”
“Those two fat women?”
“Yes.”
“Those women. I hardly took any notice of them. Forgive my saying
so, they looked like two cooks. But they weren’t very clean, and they
were sloppily dressed.”
“Yes, that they are.”
“Well, whatever you say I always instantly believe, only now you are being even more incomprehensible than previously, before I knew of those women.”

“But there is no mystery, it is all quite plain, I shall try to tell you about it. Now, I live with these women, you have seen them in the kitchen, but it’s seldom that they cook, most of the time meals are fetched from the restaurant opposite, Resi going one time, and one time Alba. Actually, no one is against the cooking being done at home, but it is too difficult, because the two of them don’t get on together, that is to say, they get on excellently, but only when they live quietly alongside each other. For instance, they are capable of lying side by side on the narrow sofa for hours, quite peacefully, without sleeping, which is no small matter, if only because they are so fat. But at work they don’t get on together, in less than no time they begin quarrelling, and from quarrelling they go to beating each other. For this reason, we have agreed—they are very ready to listen to reasoned argument—that as little work as possible should be done. This, incidentally, is in accord with their disposition. For example, they think they clean the apartment particularly well, and yet it is so dirty that it disgusts me to step over the threshold. But once I have taken that step, I get used to it quite easily.

Once work is out of the way, every occasion for quarrelling is removed, and jealousy, in particular, is utterly unknown to them. Whence should jealousy arise, anyway? After all, I can scarcely distinguish one from the other. Perhaps Alba’s nose and lips are even somewhat more Negroid than Resi’s, but sometimes, again, the opposite seems to be the case. Perhaps Resi has somewhat less hair than Alba—really, it is almost beyond what is permissible how little hair she has—but, after all, do I pay any attention to that? I stick to what I said, I can scarcely distinguish one from the other.” (DF, 339–41)

--
[Menninghaus' commentary:]
Dirty, idle, lethargic, quarrelsome, almost hairless, and above all: fat—thus looms the source of all power; and thus appear the descendants of the “great mother.” Freud’s “authoress,” the source of his “means for living and going on living,” was likewise named Resi. Kafka’s Resi is the grotesque return of Freud’s serving girl. Both owe it precisely to their abject behavior—in which cleaning up and dirtying up are merged—that they are the secret generators of male power. This power is intimately linked with disgust—just as all positions of power in Kafka are tainted by the disgusting. Weaning from disgust is necessary to enter into power, and Kafka takes the overcoming of the distinction between clean and unclean to the point of no longer distinguishing at all between the two empowering women. When the nameless employee “come[s] home from work [in the] evening,” the two women run “panting” to the door, and there ensues the following ritual:
--

"Then there is always the crossing of the hall, a journey of only a few steps, which takes from a quarter of an hour to a whole hour, with them almost carrying me. I am indeed really tired after an anything but easy day, and one time I lay my head on Resi’s soft shoulder, and one time on Alba’s. Both are almost naked, only in their shifts, they go about like that most of the day; only when a visitor is expected do they put on a few dirty rags. Then we arrive at my room, and usually they push me in, but they themselves remain outside and shut the door. It is a game, for now they begin fighting for the privilege of being the first to come in. It is not at all jealousy, not a real fight, only a game. I hear the light, loud slaps they give each other, the panting that is now really the result of being short of breath, and now and then a few words. Finally, I myself open the door and they tumble in, hot, with torn shifts and the acrid smell of their breath. Then we collapse on the carpet, and then everything gradually quiets down. (DF, 341–42)

--
[Menninghaus' commentary:]

A corpulence that leads, with any moving about, to “panting” and shortness of breath; “acrid” mouth odor; “deep, gurgling laughter”; and near nakedness habitually concealed by merely “a few dirty rags”—all these traits do by no means suffice to turn the sexual intercourse on the carpet—as indicated only by the words “collapse” and “quiets down”—into something repulsive and grotesque. As a final and additional ‘kick,’ Kafka even invents a scene of female wrestling, in order to be able to portray the “mere cohabitation” with two fat women as a unique source of power. (What any “healthy” Freudian father could ever wish for is, for the “I” of this narrative, the “hot” reality of his bachelor apartment: a field of happy “freedom to enact perversions” and freedom from disgust, without any impotence threatening encroachment of bourgeois feelings of respectability or other disturbing inhibitions.)

Just as there are no young women in Kafka’s writings but only aging women and “old maids,” so also there are no slender women but only fat women or “stout girls.” The figure of the slender woman which dominates the modern canon of beauty is entirely absent in Kafka’s works; it yields to the transcendental corpulence of the female. The antithesis of the fat woman is not the slender woman but the thin, weak man.

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Jan 12 2018 21:18

Even my last two non-controversial posts are getting down-votes. If they are not just by earlier participants in the thread, I hope these anonymous voters will not be afraid to come forward and explain their reasons. One can't infer anything from a vote, after all.

The content I post is perhaps flippant (which is natural, giving that there's no fixed "program" for this thread), but I hope it's clear that I won't treat your comments in such way. I would even ask Serge et al. not to come to "my defence" anymore. It's true that almost all participants disagree with me, but it is no problem for me to respond to everyone at the same time. I think it's rather a difficulty for them because they have to co-ordinate their responses to me.

And to be clear, just because I post something, doesn't mean you have to engage it. I'm not the master/dictator of the thread keeping order. Again, feel free to bring up your own "ramblings". We can have several different subjects going on at the same time.

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Jan 16 2018 15:04

mate no one cares about you trying to intellectualise your fetish for hentai involving tentacles

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Jan 16 2018 18:11

still actual (from 1985) short article on the subsequent evolution of the concept of gender, by its coiner John Money himself:
The conceptual neutering of gender and the criminalization of sex

Quote:
The desexualization of gender is in accord with the Zeitgeist of contemporary sexual politics together with victimology and an expanding criminalization of sex.

The neutering of gender is part of a tidal wave of antisexualism that spreads its octopus tentacles into the politics of what could become a new and dictatorial era of antisexualism. America is, by reason of its historical roots in the antisexualism of Puritanism, vulnerable in this respect. It is vulnerable also because it presently has a media image of itself as having become sexually too permissive. In actual fact, America is not sexually permissive. What the media misconstrues as sexual permissiveness is erotic permissiveness. Moreover, it pertains chiefly to eroticism above the belt, as exemplified in the titillation and innuendo of sexual advertising and entertainment, in both of which official policy is to avoid explicit mention of the genitalia.
In the funding of research the de facto policy of both the government and the private philanthropies is not to fund explicit investigations of genital sexuality, nor of falling in love. Funds that should be released through scientific channels for sex research are, by and large, released through criminal-justice channels instead, and they are tagged primarily for the practice of the newly minted specialty of victimology.

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Jan 18 2018 21:40
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
mate no one cares about you trying to intellectualise your fetish for hentai involving tentacles

Intellectualise? I alerted it was banter. And it turns out I was already beaten to the punch by Vice just by a couple of months (they did a post on tentacle porn for women). Typical hipsters, I knew they'd write something like that. So why did I post it? Because it's a common trend nowadays (Redkahina terms it "operation porn pixie", where the writer wraps their ideological message in sexualised discourse/imagery – Zizek is a typical example), and it is that which I do like to intellectualise, even if only because it is annoying, let alone a point of entry for the rightwing.

Now to emulate a well-known Vice hipster, here's a Simpsons meme (you libcom posters here being the unresponsive audience to my banter attempts):

Fleur
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Jan 18 2018 23:08

Redkahina says a lot of things, none of which should ever be taken seriously, or else you are in imminent danger of your head exploding.

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Jan 19 2018 07:25

Nah, she is clearly right on this.

Fleur
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Jan 19 2018 11:29

Lol, no. More like another one of that clique to pick on people who aren’t the right kind of tankie. Apart from the whole feverish paranoia just about everything is a psy-op, OPP seems mostly to a a mechanism that the no fun police which is RK et at attack commies, esp young ones, for talking about sex. Some of the people harassed in the name of OPP are just teenagers.

Honestly, Libcom is probably the last place that I thought the ramblings of RK would be given any credence.

Fwiw I used to be more political & she first got excited by this when a lot of radical accts on twitter started getting followed by pornbots ie ahem,covert FBI accounts, clearly not understanding how algorithms work.

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Jan 19 2018 15:46
Quote:
mate no one cares about you trying to intellectualise your fetish for hentai involving tentacles

Actually, that was about the only interesting thing Noa posted on this thread.

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Jan 19 2018 17:01
Fleur wrote:
Lol, no. More like another one of that clique to pick on people who aren’t the right kind of tankie. Apart from the whole feverish paranoia just about everything is a psy-op, OPP seems mostly to a a mechanism that the no fun police which is RK et at attack commies, esp young ones, for talking about sex. Some of the people harassed in the name of OPP are just teenagers.

Redkahina criticises (here) particularly two young (but hardly teenage) female left-identifying (clearly not tankie, and also clearly not class struggle anarchists) journalists (hacks) Molly Crabapple and Laurie Penny for selling imperial policy to boho youth. She notes that they employ a sexualized aesthetic, as in Pierre Louÿs's erotic work Manuel de civilité pour les petites filles à l'usage des maisons d'éducation (– a nice reference by Redkahina).

"that project was humorously dubbed by me Operation Porn Pixie, and Crabapple protested too much" https://twitter.com/RedKahina/status/529681855910801408

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Jan 19 2018 17:06
Khawaga wrote:
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
mate no one cares about you trying to intellectualise your fetish for hentai involving tentacles

Actually, that was about the only interesting thing Noa posted on this thread.

You guys doing the Statler and Waldorf routine again?

Fleur
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Jan 19 2018 17:43

RK does have a creepy obsession with MC & LP who both have terrible politics but the full blown CIA lead pay-op that that weirdo cabal seem to be hiding from under their tin foil hats is pretty much a figment of their imagination. Anyway I’m not talking about Crabapple & Penny, who are public figures, she has gone hard after teenagers & bullied them off the platform, been abusive to people with autism, along with her eugenicist anti-vaxxing and they have cop jacketed so many people, myself included. Honestly, if RK did the sky is blue, I’d have a hard job believing her, so much bollocks is floating about that crew.

It’s fucking ridiculous. Sex sells, it’s unsurprising that people clothe ideology in it to make it interesting. A giant conspiracy/honey trap? Don’t be silly.

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Jan 19 2018 20:35
Quote:
Sex sells, it’s unsurprising that people clothe ideology in it to make it interesting.

That would perhaps be a banal point, so that even an anti-communist could accept it, like in the movie The Red Menace (1949) which portrays the CPUSA employing young women (one played by Betty Lou Gerson, with her special voice) to attract new party members.

The point would be rather that in the recent trend, self-styled leftist writers (/posters online) introduce such sexualized style for the consumption of their equally self-styled leftist audience, not to embellish their leftwing message or capture attention, but to (intentionally) disorient them by using this tactic, traditionally associated only with rightwing/bourgeois hacks.