Off topic discussions that began on the micro-aggression thread

76 posts / 0 new
Last post
Auld-bod's picture
Auld-bod
Offline
Joined: 9-07-11
Sep 22 2016 11:39

Noah #31

The answer my friend is blowin' in the - no it’s not, it’s by pretending not to be a supercilious auld git.

factvalue
Offline
Joined: 29-03-11
Sep 22 2016 12:55
jesuithitsquad wrote:
Quote:
So downmarks for being tedious, a bit different, too cheeky, having an interest in morality or because your admin just happens to not like you very much. Upmarks for being normal, cold hearted, passionless and liking The Clash.

And that behavior would be despicable and a cause worth your passion Noah, except that you left one tiny, little "motheaten" trait off your list of reasons why FV is 'persecuted.' This is the genesis of most of the antipathy toward him/her around libcom*, and not the vapid, excruciatingly tedious content you accurately describe.

That FV regularly and quite intentionally derails many threads of interest into the same mundane argument that became unreadable 500 posts ago in 5 different threads is indeed an incredibly annoying behavior. It's counter-productive, most likely drives people away from discussion, and does FV no favors in earning any 'social capital' around here.

That FV--given ample opportunity to clarify their positions, more benefit of doubt than they've earned, but continues to hold positions that charitably can be described as trivializing anti-Semitism and engaging in anti-Semitic tropes--has been tolerated, in any way, on a libertarian communist website for this long is something that is beyond my understanding. This behavior is what is anti-communist in this situation and not others' reaction to FV's tedium.

Noah, I don't doubt your sincerity, but I think you've hitched yourself to the wrong horse this time.

*speaking only for myself here.

On tedium, see my comment above but I think you could probably go on a lecture tour with that as your title, maybe using slides to accompany that agonisingly pointless little autobiography you vomited up for our delectation a while back, that was a real libcom lowpoint, perhaps barking out the same shrill pre-conscious accusations over and over as you've yet again treated us to above, which would certainly be convenient if correct except that I've been 'unpopular' with the in-entities round here for a lot longer than that (where have you been little one?) - I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I wasn't, although there's no evidence that most of these entities are even bipedal let alone libertarian communist revolutionaries. So just you keep on dancing from foot to foot and shaking your thin little fist if it pleases you, whoever or whatever you are.

factvalue
Offline
Joined: 29-03-11
Sep 22 2016 12:58

AB - thanks for that, I'll have a think about what you've said, it seems like very sound advice on a first reading.

Red Marriott's picture
Red Marriott
Offline
Joined: 7-05-06
Sep 22 2016 17:55

It seems to me that the very structure of libcom forums (and similar places) almost create a role-waiting-to-be-occupied for certain personality types; people whose insecurities they attempt to hide behind aggression, competition, arrogance & cliquey ‘humour’. Note that the short fuse usually goes off soon after they can’t get quick agreement with their views and/or any doubt is shown as to their correctness. One of the earlier performances in similar vein; http://libcom.org/forums/general/intellectual-dishonesty-01052016

The self-justification for this is that they’re supposedly more radical, more willing to push the boundaries than the rest of us sheepish flock or ‘herd’. So inevitably they paint themselves as maverick outlaws and claim that’s why they’re supposedly unfairly treated by ‘the herd’ – ie, all those who criticise the content of their statements and, when necessary, how they say it. The possibility that the content and how it’s expressed simply isn’t as great as they like to think; that the criticism may be valid; that there are better & worse, more & less mature and sociable ways of responding to disagreement etc don’t seem to be taken into account. In their circular ‘logic’ this becomes ‘if we’re being slagged it’s cos they resent the truth we’ve exposed about them and can’t tolerate our radical, challenging boundary-pushing’ – so any criticism becomes validation for these martyrs of the conservatism they so bravely struggle against;

NF wrote:
I don't think we have a problem player. What we have is someone that's a bad fit for the socially pedestrian culture often on display here. With that in mind My suggestion is that a bit of acceptance and fair mindedness be put into practice by those to whom integrity has some value and the remaining disengenuous shitbags go and fuck theirselves.

We see predictable behaviour patterns; tipping back & forth between aggression & humour. Firstly – a proposition posted as a vehicle for approval. And when they’ve replaced the failed search for acceptance of their views with angry antagonism this leads on to the aggressive/sarcastic ‘aren’t we cool and ironically amusing’ performance - as a barrier to block any further serious consideration of what others say and as a message to others of the non-worth of any criticism. We prob all have a bit of these traits in us but most are able to see – rather than wearing it as a badge of pride - the desirability of not letting such things dominate our behaviour.

This creates a recurring problem for the forums as a whole; eg, by commenting at all am I here contributing to perpetuating what I criticise? Maybe, but that’s the Catch-22. Threads are degenerated into personalised antagonism – and people are left with few options but to either suffer silently the derailing of the selfish/insecure or call them out on it and so feed the flames. Win-win for the attention seekers and tedious lose-lose for the rest.

radicalgraffiti
Offline
Joined: 4-11-07
Sep 22 2016 18:04
Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
Offline
Joined: 18-12-12
Sep 22 2016 22:31

Blimey RM, I didn't know your beef was so deep seated, in fact I didn't know there was any beef at all.
Anyways, I guess there only one thing for it - a sarcastic, snarky but decently humorous response to your excellent critique. So...

Hey, have you been talking to my shrink? If not your venture into my psyche is breathtakingly similar to hers, although she seems to think it's all connected to my desire to wear ladies knickers which I guess you have too delicate and chivalrous sensibilities to mention?
After she shared her analysis I asked the question could it not be that I happen to value different things to many people and don't mind exposing myself to their ridicule and giving considerably better than I get but she said no, it's definitely because you want to wear ladies knickers. So I guess you're right, I'm an insecure asshole.
Anyhow, I am trying and the 2 prescriptions she issued, one for an anti-psychotic and another for a visit to Matks and Spencer's ladies underwear department to buy a selection of pantygirdles are starting to work. Once they kick in properly we can visit the boring bastard club together. The start of a beautiful friendship. xxx

Edit: I've just been soundly told off by a friend for making a transphobic post so to put some context to this;

I did actually tell my shrink a long time ago that I wanted to wear ladies underwear. This was to fuck with her as I was not a voluntary patient. The absurdity was not whether or not I wanted to wear such underwear(I didn't) but that my shrink asked me about nothing else in all our sessions after I told her and spewed out such reactionary nonsense as 'latent homosexual tendencies' etc.
I was actually prompted to write this post though by the fact that my partner was shopping on Amazon for some pregnancy knickers for me to wear(which is definitely absurd ) to help with the ascites(fluid retention) I am currently dealing with. Right now I have around 7 litres of fluid trapped in my abdominal cavity which is extremely uncomfortable and restrictive.
So I was using my personal experience to make a joke rather than making any comment about trans men. That said, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

jef costello's picture
jef costello
Offline
Joined: 9-02-06
Sep 22 2016 19:31
Red Marriott wrote:
This creates a recurring problem for the forums as a whole; eg, by commenting at all am I here contributing to perpetuating what I criticise? Maybe, but that’s the Catch-22. Threads are degenerated into personalised antagonism – and people are left with few options but to either suffer silently the derailing of the selfish/insecure or call them out on it and so feed the flames. Win-win for the attention seekers and tedious lose-lose for the rest.

This.

factvalue
Offline
Joined: 29-03-11
Sep 22 2016 20:48

I keep hoping that excruciating 'This' bullshit will die out and then FUCK there it is again AAARGH!! The trouble with the mind-bogglingly unconscious 'we're trying to have an in-depth discussion' gambit is that as you seriously start trying to have one it's exactly the people attempting this ploy who run for the hills spitting abuse over their shoulders and refusing to budge from their homely little bunkers.

But while there are serious people posting on here, the root of the problem, the true reason there's little point even attempting to have a really deep discussion with most of the web-entities hereabouts, is that libcom was founded by a matey clique of backslappers, and principled understanding is really only the surface appearance, formed by the sloshing back and forth and round and round of an agreed vocabulary and vague set of stances passing for insights, between entities known only to each other who strut around posing as revolutionaries. If principle had anything to do with it, why the voting, why the flagrant double standards, why Aufhebengate, for fuck sake?

Unfortunately there is no International to take one's case to concerning the daily slanders which go on in this strange little club, so as I said earlier Noah, what's the point? There can be some decent people contributing so all you can do is just wait around for them to show up occasionally and, since it's a club, why not have a drink?

Great knickers btw way comrade, lovely cut, nice firm buttocks for a man your age.

jesuithitsquad's picture
jesuithitsquad
Offline
Joined: 11-10-08
Sep 23 2016 06:41

There really should be a libcom version of Godwin's Law but for Aufhebengate...

Steven.'s picture
Steven.
Offline
Joined: 27-06-06
Sep 23 2016 08:22
jesuithitsquad wrote:

That FV--given ample opportunity to clarify their positions, more benefit of doubt than they've earned, but continues to hold positions that charitably can be described as trivializing anti-Semitism and engaging in anti-Semitic tropes--has been tolerated, in any way, on a libertarian communist website for this long is something that is beyond my understanding. This behavior is what is anti-communist in this situation and not others' reaction to FV's tedium.

I must admit I haven't seen evidence of this "anti-Semitism", and I don't think any of the other admins have either, could you give us a link?

factvalue
Offline
Joined: 29-03-11
Sep 23 2016 13:07

I simply must say that there should really be a meta-Godwin law for easily-anticipated mention of Godwin's Law.

factvalue
Offline
Joined: 29-03-11
Sep 23 2016 16:59
Steven. wrote:
jesuithitsquad wrote:

That FV--given ample opportunity to clarify their positions, more benefit of doubt than they've earned, but continues to hold positions that charitably can be described as trivializing anti-Semitism and engaging in anti-Semitic tropes--has been tolerated, in any way, on a libertarian communist website for this long is something that is beyond my understanding. This behavior is what is anti-communist in this situation and not others' reaction to FV's tedium.

I must admit I haven't seen evidence of this "anti-Semitism", and I don't think any of the other admins have either, could you give us a link?

Hang on, this is blatantly false, not because I'm an anti-Semite, since I'm not, but because admin-entity Ed (who I was disagreeing with, imagine that) was one of the entities on the 'Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic?' thread who was suggesting that I was engaging in 'anti-Semitic tropes' so surely some appropriate form of construal can be found if necessary?

Fleur
Online
Joined: 21-02-12
Sep 23 2016 17:43

Why are you calling people entities? It's such a pointlessly snide little insult. I feel that it's pointing out the obvious but if you don't want to hang out with the proto-human, lower level of consciousness, unprincipled bunch of lumpen idiots that we are, why do you bother showing up? It clearly brings you no joy.

BRB, just typing up the agenda from the monthly Libcom Groupthink Meeting, where we set out the principles that we all religiously adhere to and delegate the Head Sheep of the Month who the rest of the group needs to follow.

factvalue
Offline
Joined: 29-03-11
Sep 23 2016 18:18

The 'entity' thing isn't an insult, just a statement of fact which comes both from things you have said in the past about posting on here, and from entity RM's post #84 on the micro-aggression thread

Red Marriott wrote:
And that’s to leave aside the often extreme divorce between many people’s offline and online personalities and behaviour – the gap often not being a positive thing...

and as I said above, there are some serious-minded, objective people who post, so it's a matter of tuning out the word golf. Could I ask that a copy of the minutes of that meeting be passed from the Head Rhetorician to the minister in charge of distortion and caricature?

Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
Offline
Joined: 18-12-12
Sep 24 2016 11:43
Quote:
BRB, just typing up the agenda from the monthly Libcom Groupthink Meeting, where we set out the principles that we all religiously adhere to and delegate the Head Sheep of the Month who the rest of the group needs to follow.

Hehehe, comedy gold. Come on Fleur, we need to team up and hit the comedy circuit, we'll smash it. The anarchy Cannon and Ball. Fuck whether we agree or not, let's just make some dollar! You know it makes sense!!!

S. Artesian
Offline
Joined: 5-02-09
Sep 24 2016 16:08

It's the sweetness of the ready
That makes the bell ring on the till
And if they say they'll pay you next week
You know they never will

Take the K.A.S.H
Don't let them pay you in kind

Wreckless Eric

Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
Offline
Joined: 18-12-12
Sep 24 2016 16:13

Showing yer age there old son - when was the last time you met a till with a bell on it?
You're right about the kash though - I'm loving the bangers!

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Sep 24 2016 16:21
jesuithitsquad wrote:
There really should be a libcom version of Godwin's Law but for Aufhebengate...

Also, "censorship" and "groupthink"

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Sep 24 2016 16:23

Ah, Fleur beat me to it with the groupthink! (I'll wear that as a badge of honor...unlike Noah's knickers. Which, btw, is the name of my new band.)

Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
Offline
Joined: 18-12-12
Sep 24 2016 16:43
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Ah, Fleur beat me to it with the groupthink! (I'll wear that as a badge of honor...unlike Noah's knickers. Which, btw, is the name of my new band.)

Am I to be constantly publicly humiliated? I dragged myself out to a DJing job last night and as I ambled through the crowd of 20somethings with my walking stick some geezer pointed at my record box and hollers out 'what you got in there grandad, Elvis Presley? Cheeky fucker! I would have battered him but I couldn't batter a bit of fish at the moment(not that UV would let me be involved in the death of a fish!)

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Sep 24 2016 19:20

Well, come out to one or our gigs, then. They're pretty brief, but we're pretty tight. Silky smooth lines.

Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
Offline
Joined: 18-12-12
Sep 24 2016 20:05
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Well, come out to one or our gigs, then. They're pretty brief, but we're pretty tight. Silky smooth lines.

If your modelling yourselves on my drawers you're probably full of shit.

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Sep 24 2016 20:22

This friendship is gonna be on the skids if you keep up with those sorts of remarks. wink

S. Artesian
Offline
Joined: 5-02-09
Sep 24 2016 21:43
Noah Fence wrote:
Showing yer age there old son - when was the last time you met a till with a bell on it?
You're right about the kash though - I'm loving the bangers!

Rock n Roll saved my life.

And still does

jesuithitsquad's picture
jesuithitsquad
Offline
Joined: 11-10-08
Sep 26 2016 19:36

At the risk of bumping a thread that appears to have died down, Steven. asked for examples of factvalue's problematic posts. I haven't had the time until now to collate a list

But really quickly this:

factvalue wrote:
not because I'm an anti-semite, since I'm not

To my memory is one of the 1st remotely anti- racist declarations FV has made on the topic of anti-Semitism. This is progress. To FV's credit, they also did, at one point state that if Israel ceased being of strategic importance, the US would drop it's support. Unfortunately, these are the only two examples I can give of a positive POV in FV's posts on the matter.

In fairness to admins, the thread in question was an absolute cesspool, and included Zeroisnowhere's apparent outing as having fash sympathies. So given all of that, it would be easy to over look FV's much more subtle use of questionable language.

No one needs a relitigation of that thread, so I will attempt to describe the contents of FV's posts as neutrally as i can muster. Obviously, I have a strong POV on the matter, so being objective is probably impossible. So, all that said, FV if you feel my summary misrepresents your positions, please correct the record.

On a couple of occasions, I have also included posts from others on here because I feel their contributions effectively demonstrate why FV's assertions are seriously problematic.

From the Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic thread:

Post # 140, 142, 144

FV suggests anti-semitism is caused by Israel's actions

Post # 192

FV posts a picture of native american traditional garb (maybe it's Village People?), seemingly attempting to be funny, saying this is why Native American struggles aren't taken seriously.

Post #250

In a discussion about the use of the phrase 'Israel's tentacles are everywhere,' FV suggests there could be other possible explanations of the phrase which are not anti-Semitic.

Post #252

FV seems to equate the state of Israel with all Jews. FV also appears to be saying most Jews support ethnic cleansing.

Post # 257
- seems to suggest anti-Semitism isn't really a problem, and favorably quoted someone who states that Jewish people have a sense of ethnic superiority. FV also states that Jews are generally rich and powerful.

Post #260
S Artesian, who had previously been arguing a similar position as FV, feels FV crossed a line and presents a very effective take-down of FV's positions

Post #261
FV appears to suggest Jews are rich.

Post #263

FV states all (or was it most?) Jews support Israel

Post #265

Reddebrek presents a list summarizing FV's points and makes an effective argument as to why this slips into the territory of anti-Semitism.

Post #271

FV appears to suggest most modern anti-Semitism is a myth.

Post #279

FV appears to be saying that Israel's attrocities implicate Jews, generally.

Post #286

FV states it is nonsense to say Jews are targeted for murder. FV also states the following:
1) Most Jews are Zionists or support Zionism
2) Jews have an outsized influence per capita
3) Anti-semitism isn't racism

Post #327

FV states there is not a scrap of evidence that anti-semitism is a major problem

Post #332
FV states that the claim that anti-semitism is on the rise is Zionist propaganda--and it is ludicrous to claim there is a worrying rise in anti-semitism in the Western World. FV also states that rising anti-semitism is impossible (unlikely?) in a society in which Jews are so successful.

Post #338
FV states that 90-95% of the Israeli population supports every massacre committed by the Israeli state. FV also suggests that US Embassies are ratcheting up accusations of anti-Semitism.

.
.
.

Phew, I feel like I need several back-to-back showers after wading through that thread again. Apologies that I didn't link to each post, but I'm on my phone and it would have been very difficult.

S. Artesian
Offline
Joined: 5-02-09
Sep 26 2016 19:57

Can't find the thread using the search function. Got a link to the thread (not the posts)?

radicalgraffiti
Offline
Joined: 4-11-07
Sep 26 2016 20:11

this is the thread https://libcom.org/forums/general/anti-zionism-anti-semitic-01052016

factvalue
Offline
Joined: 29-03-11
Sep 26 2016 20:16

Yeah, there's no need for me to correct 'the record' because this isn't the record, it's more of a stuck record, a skewed recording of 'the record' on high bias. The record is there on the thread along with the context so let me know if you have anything objectively, unequivocally demonstrating anti-Semitism - as opposed to anti-Zionism - whenever you get to a bigger keyboard, unless you're alleging something more 'subtle' (or you're a mind-reader) in which case you're going to have to explain exactly what you mean and make your case much more fully, put the leg-work in and stop making excuses about hardware etc.. If you do manage that (because you haven't so far), it may take some time for me to reply because work is very busy at the moment. Good luck!

S. Artesian
Offline
Joined: 5-02-09
Sep 26 2016 22:56
jesuithitsquad wrote:
At the risk of bumping a thread that appears to have died down, Steven. asked for examples of factvalue's problematic posts. I haven't had the time until now to collate a list

But really quickly this:

factvalue wrote:
not because I'm an anti-semite, since I'm not

To my memory is one of the 1st remotely anti- racist declarations FV has made on the topic of anti-Semitism. This is progress. To FV's credit, they also did, at one point state that if Israel ceased being of strategic importance, the US would drop it's support. Unfortunately, these are the only two examples I can give of a positive POV in FV's posts on the matter.

In fairness to admins, the thread in question was an absolute cesspool, and included Zeroisnowhere's apparent outing as having fash sympathies. So given all of that, it would be easy to over look FV's much more subtle use of questionable language.

No one needs a relitigation of that thread, so I will attempt to describe the contents of FV's posts as neutrally as i can muster. Obviously, I have a strong POV on the matter, so being objective is probably impossible. So, all that said, FV if you feel my summary misrepresents your positions, please correct the record.

On a couple of occasions, I have also included posts from others on here because I feel their contributions effectively demonstrate why FV's assertions are seriously problematic.

From the Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic thread:

Post # 140, 142, 144

FV suggests anti-semitism is caused by Israel's actions

Post # 192

FV posts a picture of native american traditional garb (maybe it's Village People?), seemingly attempting to be funny, saying this is why Native American struggles aren't taken seriously.

Post #250

In a discussion about the use of the phrase 'Israel's tentacles are everywhere,' FV suggests there could be other possible explanations of the phrase which are not anti-Semitic.

Post #252

FV seems to equate the state of Israel with all Jews. FV also appears to be saying most Jews support ethnic cleansing.

Post # 257
- seems to suggest anti-Semitism isn't really a problem, and favorably quoted someone who states that Jewish people have a sense of ethnic superiority. FV also states that Jews are generally rich and powerful.

Post #260
S Artesian, who had previously been arguing a similar position as FV, feels FV crossed a line and presents a very effective take-down of FV's positions

Post #261
FV appears to suggest Jews are rich.

Post #263

FV states all (or was it most?) Jews support Israel

Post #265

Reddebrek presents a list summarizing FV's points and makes an effective argument as to why this slips into the territory of anti-Semitism.

Post #271

FV appears to suggest most modern anti-Semitism is a myth.

Post #279

FV appears to be saying that Israel's attrocities implicate Jews, generally.

Post #286

FV states it is nonsense to say Jews are targeted for murder. FV also states the following:
1) Most Jews are Zionists or support Zionism
2) Jews have an outsized influence per capita
3) Anti-semitism isn't racism

Post #327

FV states there is not a scrap of evidence that anti-semitism is a major problem

Post #332
FV states that the claim that anti-semitism is on the rise is Zionist propaganda--and it is ludicrous to claim there is a worrying rise in anti-semitism in the Western World. FV also states that rising anti-semitism is impossible (unlikely?) in a society in which Jews are so successful.

Post #338
FV states that 90-95% of the Israeli population supports every massacre committed by the Israeli state. FV also suggests that US Embassies are ratcheting up accusations of anti-Semitism.

Phew, I feel like I need several back-to-back showers after wading through that thread again. Apologies that I didn't link to each post, but I'm on my phone and it would have been very difficult.

Yeah, well maybe you should have stayed under the water longer, since you seem to attack FV as being anti-semitic for holding exactly the same position EDIT: on "blow back" as the well known anti-anti-semite Ed:

Ed post 248 wrote:
As an interesting aside, I think factvalue's point about "genuine anti-semitism" rising alongside massacre by the state of Israel is a fair assumption (though obv needs verifying with stats). I would agree that much anti-semitism is driven these days by the very real atrocities committed by Israel. But then this is basically my point: there does exist "genuine anti-semitism" in the pro-Palestine movement; surely our goal is to challenge (and, in time, defeat) it?

Or maybe you should use more cold water so you might clearly understand FV's post 263, where he is citing Ed as the source for the "most Jews support Israel" assertion and is using that assertion to make distinctions among Zionism, anti-zionism, and anti-semitism, and where, apparently invisible to you, FV clearly states his opposition to anti-semitism.

Or maybe no water at all so you might see the distinction between being anti-semitic, and arguing that anti-semitism is not a major threat in the Western world. The former being "problematic"-- the latter being a question of evaluation and not "problematic" or indicative of anti-semitism.

Oh, and for the record, my "takedown" in post 260 had nothing to do with crossing some kind of line, but simply that the information FV provided is absolutely irrelevant to the issue of whether or not anti-zionism is anti-semitic, or can/does some anti-zionism contain/conceal/succor anti-semitism. Guess you missed that part, except it wasn't "part," it was the ganze megillah, as we say in Yiddish.

But hey, let's not bring that whole thread again. Let's only bring up the parts that one party finds "problematic," which problem boils down to "If you don't think anti-semitism is a major major persistent persistent threat, then that in itself is proof that you must be anti-semitic."

Personally, not that it matters, I find the distortion you traffic in problematic.

Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
Offline
Joined: 18-12-12
Sep 26 2016 22:42

Nice post S. Still, it's a popular sport so I think I'll sling some mud at FV too. Did you know he once chose a crumpet instead of a bagel? How much more proof do you want?

Honestly, what a fucking shit pool this is.

Note: edited to stay on topic. I don't want my balls cut off for that too.