Off topic discussions that began on the micro-aggression thread

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Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
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Sep 26 2016 22:40

Balls up no1

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Ed
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Sep 26 2016 22:34

So, I have literally no intention of getting drawn back into this but, S Artesian, if you say this:

Quote:
you seem to attack FV as being anti-semitic for holding exactly the same positions as the well known anti-anti-semite Ed

Then you are guilty of exactly the same kind of distortion you accuse jesuithitsquad of (namely, a tactical omission of some of FV's more ambiguous statements)..

FWIW, no, I don't think FV hates Jews. But I do think they lack concern about anti-semitism (charitably, I'd say perhaps as a response to Zionists over-egging the anti-semitic cake) and sometimes strays into the territory of argumentation that leads to anti-semitic conclusions..

Noah Fence's picture
Noah Fence
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Sep 26 2016 22:41

Balls up no2

S. Artesian
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Sep 26 2016 22:54

Ed,

I'll fix that:
"exactly the same position-- singular, on the issue of "blow back."

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Sep 27 2016 03:39

I find it interesting that the attention so far from some has focused on factvalue's less controversial comments instead of addressing--head-on--the more problematic remarks. Out of the 400 some odd posts I attempted to hit the most important points. If others feel there are posts that should have been included, knock yourself out--have at it!

Certain concepts like 'blow-back' aren't particularly controversial in and of themselves, but they are part of the larger conversation. So, when someone like Ed talks about blow-back it is a completely different thing than when factvalue talks about it, given the context of all of their other comments.

As I said, factvalue's welcome to point out any distortions they feel I may have made, but it seems as if they're disinterested in doing that. Instead, telling me to 'do the work' as if rereading that thread and summarizing their posts was anything other than a time consuming shitshow.

SA in the meta anti-Semitism thread, libcom managerialism or what the fuck ever, you described your intervention thusly. .

Quote:
I challenged fv, as did others, on his assessments and links of "disproportional Jewish representation."

whether your objection was about irrelevance or not makes no difference. It doesn't change the fact that the notion of disproportional Jewish influence is essentially the basis of every single anti-semitic trope in history.

Was fv's usage of this and other tropes intentional? Only fv can answer that. When I challenged fv about the tentacles trope, also in the meta thread, factvalue implied they were aware of it, so it's clearly not a case of ignorance.

At every single opportunity to clarify, fv refuses. It's like I've said before, if a comrade says 'hey, I'm not really cool with the way that sounds,' the appropriate thing to do is to take a step back, and explain how/why what you meant to say had been misinterpreted, that the offense was unintentional and apologize for your part in the misunderstanding. But fv always just doubles down and completely refuses to engage constructively.

Now, does that make them an anti-semite? No, not in and of itself. But it sure as fuck makes them a bad communist and an unpleasant human being, at least online.

jesuithitsquad's picture
jesuithitsquad
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Sep 27 2016 06:46

I've a touch more time now, so I will address a few specific things. .

factvalue wrote:
The record is there on the thread along with the context so let me know if you have anything objectively, unequivocally demonstrating anti-Semitism - as opposed to anti-Zionism -

I've never once accused you of being anti-Semitic. I've consistently said that you are

jesuithitsquad wrote:
trivializing anti-Semitism and engaging in anti-Semitic tropes

and I've yet to see a single, credible reason presented why this assessment is wrong. I do think I agree with Ed's assertion that it's likely you've just bent the stick too far the other way in reaction to Zionist zeal, but I don't know. You know why I don't know? Because you won't say.

Tell us why you think I'm wrong. I'd love to be, honestly. I can't, for the life of me, understand why you won't make a few, simple declarative statements clarifying your POV unless: a) are a seriously stubborn motherfucker b) you suffer from an anti-social personality disorder (which online is pretty much indistinguishable from (a) or c) you really do hold some unfortunate views on the topic.

And before anyone pipes in with a "have you stopped beating your wife?" analogy, when one or two people misunderstand me, it's might be their fault; when dozens misunderstand me, there's clearly something wrong with either what I'm saying or how I'm saying it.

SA wrote:
But hey, let's not bring that whole thread again. Let's only bring up the parts that one party finds "problematic," which problem boils down to "If you don't think anti-semitism is a major major persistent persistent threat, then that in itself is proof that you must be anti-semitic."

I'm sorry SA--can you direct me to posts in that thread where other people are engaging in questionable behavior? (Aside from zeroisnowhere). Or is your false equivalency just a poorly used rhetorical device attempting to minimize the opinions of the many people who found problems with factvalue's posts?

and this part

Quote:
"If you don't think anti-semitism is a major major persistent persistent threat, then that in itself is proof that you must be anti-semitic."

is just lazy and beneath you. It's actually very reminiscent of factvalue's sophomoric analysis masquerading as 'deep thoughts.' You can do better than this strawman.

SA wrote:
Or maybe you should use more cold water so you might clearly understand FV's post 263, where he is citing Ed as the source for the "most Jews support Israel" assertion and is using that assertion to make distinctions among Zionism, anti-zionism, and anti-semitism, and where, apparently invisible to you, FV clearly states his opposition to anti-semitism.

Here is factvalue's post #263 in it's entirety:

factvalue wrote:
Ed has already said that internationally Jews overwhelmingly support zionism. What does he mean by zionism? What do you mean? Do you mean that Israel has a right to exist within its pre-June 1967 borders in accord with e.g. UN 242? Then I am a zionist. Do you mean that the original ethnic cleansing of the population of Palestine was fine? Then I am anti-zionist. Do you mean that zionism as actually occurring state terrorism currently being practised by the state of Israel in the region is perfectly fine? Then I'm anti-zionist. Do you mean that there should exist a religious, racist state anywhere? I'm anti- that. Does this mean I'm anti-semitic?

Please point to the part where "FV clearly states his opposition to anti-semitism," because it is, in fact, invisible to me.

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Sep 27 2016 08:07

It was Steven post #49, who asked you for evidence:

jesuithitsquad wrote:
That FV--given ample opportunity to clarify their positions, more benefit of doubt than they've earned, but continues to hold positions that charitably can be described as trivializing anti-Semitism and engaging in anti-Semitic tropes--has been tolerated, in any way, on a libertarian communist website for this long is something that is beyond my understanding. This behavior is what is anti-communist in this situation and not others' reaction to FV's tedium.

I must admit I haven't seen evidence of this "anti-Semitism", and I don't think any of the other admins have either, could you give us a link?’

I agree with Ed #63 that FV posts can appear to lack concern about anti-Semitism. He’s careless or oblivious about how others may read his opinions. Like some other posters here, if criticised FV will not give an inch. To me so far the ‘evidence’ is circumstantial rather than conclusive.

Jesuithitsquad #66:
‘So, when someone like Ed talks about blow-back it is a completely different thing than when factvalue talks about it, given the context of all of their other comments.’

Which proves to me FV may well be a bit of an oaf at times, as for the rest…

S. Artesian
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Sep 27 2016 12:42
Quote:
I'm sorry SA--can you direct me to posts in that thread where other people are engaging in questionable behavior? (Aside from zeroisnowhere). Or is your false equivalency just a poorly used rhetorical device attempting to minimize the opinions of the many people who found problems with factvalue's posts?

Can I point to posts where other people are engaging in "questionable behavior?" No-- because I don't think that anyone engaged in "questionable behavior." I think Zero engaged in outright anti-semitic remarks. I think FV was mistaken in several areas. But.....no "questionable behavior." Nothing that was "problematic." I despise euphemism. Euphemisms really are pointless when we're discussing questions of racism, anti-semitism.

Others saw "questionable behavior" all over the place. In fact, I was the poster boy for questionable behavior.

You produce a veritable scroll to make the point that you think FV is anti-semitic, and then to seal the deal, you claim you are not asserting FV is anti-semitic.

If that doesn't trigger a gag reflex, I don't know what will.

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Sep 27 2016 13:54

At first I thought this thread had strayed so far from the original, but all the hubbub about approximate anti-Semitism confirms that it is indeed genetically related to to the 'high minded' moral purism induced by academic/liberal identity politics and multiculturalism.

Euphemism is no doubt a part of it; instead of racist or stereotypical arguments which could be rejected and argued against, we have statements which are 'problematic' or 'micro-aggressions' and so on. We build the case against a person based on statements which can be viewed in a somewhat negative light, etc.

radicalgraffiti
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Sep 27 2016 15:00

factvalue claims that other people in the thread that think anti-Semitism is an issue are conned by pro Israel organisations, he also spends a considerable amount of time "Holocaust industry" which has no relevance to the thread, but he apparently believes its vitally important to bring up when ever someone mentions anti-Semitism.

He claims here #229 that east European anti Semitism is motivated by being unjustly forced to pay for sized jewish businesses etc

Quote:
I think that genuine spikes in anti-semitism occur concurrently with public revulsion with massacres carried out by the Jewish state and that Israel could prevent these by giving up both the massacres and the exclusivity (I'm none too fond of states and religions tbh). Another source of genuine anti-semitism in Europe has been the shakedown of Eastern Europe by the Holocaust industry of Jewish 'charities'.

though out the thread he refuses to acknowledge that anti Semitism has any existence interdependent of the actions of Israel/"Holocaust industry" post 243

Quote:

SF - I think there are genuine intermittent rises in anti-semitism caused by massacres committed by the state of Israel, which atrocities are themselves being encouraged and enabled by Israel's connections with a destructive, right wing gang of war mongering, rich Jews in the US who like to destroy any chance of peace in Palestine and the rest of the region from their threatened bunkers in the Hamptons, Martha's Vineyard, Beverly Hills or Florida, and who have a vested interest in a holocaust industry that imprints death ('remembrance') deeply into the minds of Israel's young people, conditioning them to a paranoid, spartan, siege and conquest mentality in order to perpetuate a situation that they believe will accomplish their insane objectives and those of their ultra right wing allies in Israel, such as, most recently, a war with Iran.

As I wrote in post 229 'Another source of genuine anti-semitism in Europe has been the shakedown of Eastern Europe by the Holocaust industry of Jewish 'charities', run by the self-same rabid, right wing loonies, who are also responsible for concocting the cover of a 'new anti-semitism' within and somehow inherent to western countries (all modern socioeconomic and cultural indicators to the contrary notwithstanding) every time there is any heat on Israel. In other words, these bastards are not trying to root out anti-semitism, they have no interest in getting rid of it because they only exist to defend ultra right wing Israel at all cost and to line their pockets in a contemptible misuse of the Nazi holocaust.

and mocks this idea post 152

Quote:
Quote:

If the actions of the Israeli state make a person want to collectively punish Jews, that person is probably already inclined to anti-semitism (or at least a dubious notion of collective racial guilt).

So the actions of the Israeli State could (probably) have no influence on how easily bigoted opinion could spread, or influence the less well-informed or intelligent, because of the discovery of the bigotry gene or something? Is the 'notion of collective racial guilt' dubious through being obviously illogical, or because besides being illogical it is based upon 'race', and particularly so since Judaism is a religion?

claims that people are only seeing anti Semitism because of being conned by the ADL etc
post 250

Quote:
Ed, something occurred to me upon reading your commentary around the "Zionists have their tentacles everywhere" 'trope', as you characterised it: bearing in mind what you said about the overwhelming support for zionism from Jews internationally, are Jews excluded from networks of power and privilege? And if they aren't but, on the contrary, are disproportionately well connected, as the leader of the ADL recently said regarding e.g. media and publishing, is yours the only possible interpretation of that statement, or was the statement merely an empirical observation? Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Stop the War or Galloway or any other Stalinist, but how much might you be responding to theatrical, choreographed foreboding propagated by the likes of the ADL that there's a holocaust lurking around every corner?

I don't know what factvalue actual thinks, but what he actually does is to deny anti Semitism.

he posted this immediately after someone got banned for saying hitler was right post 327

Quote:
Anyway, there's not a single scrap of evidence to support the ludicrous claim that anti-Semitism poses a major threat in the Western world, so a large part of this thread has amounted to little more than people mistaking (bewilderingly ponderous) political posturing for political positions and I've totally lost interest. Good luck to you.

in the context of the rest of the thread its clear that his contribution was to attack any discussion of anti-Semitism and reduced it to, people reaction to bad stuff Israel did, people reaction to bad stuff Jewish charities did and lies by the ADL etc

Noah Fence's picture
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Sep 27 2016 19:42

This isn't really fair but I've been admitted to hospital and put in a ward of three. I've been told I have a 'life threatening' infection in my abdominal cavity, the guy in the bed next to me has just been taken to theatre for a combined liver and kidney transplant(now that's a biggy) and the guy next to him who has mental health problems and lives alone on benefits has been told he has untreatable cancer and the best the docs can do is pain relief. In this context the Internet head butting seems a bit silly.

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fingers malone
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Sep 27 2016 20:10

Hang in there comrade

Noah Fence's picture
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Sep 27 2016 20:15
fingers malone wrote:
Hang in there comrade

Thanks. I'm ok, they're pretty sure they've caught it I time. I know my contribution to the debate hasn't been very serious and I've now massively decontextualised it but I guess you see what I mean, eh?

factvalue
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Sep 27 2016 21:00

I couldn't agree more Noah. I've nothing like your situation to cope with but even being a bit snowed under at work has pushed this stupid shit underneath the bottom of my list, where it previously held pride of place.

Let me know if there's anything I can do mate, be thinking about you and hope it goes well - looking forward to seeing you at the bookfair. Love and solidarity brother.

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Sep 27 2016 22:25

Get well soon Noah