Trans solidarity.

That's an interesting post.

It always strikes me as odd when people start foaming at the mouth about trans people. I can only assume they must have been caught in the act when trying on their mam's knickers and stillets when they were a nipper and have a massive guilt complex. Or they could just be utter twats. I think the likelihood they rant like they do is down to something untoward they got up to at some time or another. After all, people with no issues about this couldn't give a fuck either way. And it's always best to bear this in mind when talking to people like this; let them know you know all about their guilty little secret and tell them to shut the fuck up. Believe me, it's funny as fuck.

Course, you need balls of steel for this approach - fortunately, mine are cast iron copper bottomed (though a bit saggy)

On the same subject, one of the nastiest experiences I ever had over this was about 10 years ago in a 100% male gay pub near Kings Cross when I was with a boyfriend who was TV for the night. It actually kicked off and ended up with chairs throwing and glasses being smashed.

We had a fucking great time

I thought it was a small, vocal minority who actually hate men in dresses (etc), I mean, they can be funny because they are incongruous with our social norms but finding them funny is not at all the same as hating or even disliking. Most people I've encountered do not exhibit hate towards them. Mind you I have not spent much of my time living on council estates. Is it really a feature of council estates?

I have encountered a lot of prejudiced attitudes from kids from council estates but I put this down to them being kids rather than council estate residents.

I'll leave that for you to have a think about.

Actually, just tell me what you think working class means.

And on another thread you said:

What made you think I was going to quote Marx?

Tell me then, given what you've said about your idea of class (which I don't completely agree with but let's pretend), tell me what the fuck it has to do with whether you live on a council estate or not?

Aww... brazilian, I was warming to you a bit there but now you've gone and spoiled it all by being a knob again.

The class struggle is not about what estate you grew up on or where you live; same as it's not about your accent, clothes, music you listen to, newspaper you read, or football team you support; it's not about whether you're on the dole, have a boring shit job or a decent one on reasonably good money; and it's not about what brand of ciggies you smoke or whether you prefer a pint or a glass of fucking Pimms. In other words, working class is not an identity.

The class struggle is about where we are in relation to the means of production and the fact that the capitalist class own and control it while we have to sell our labour power to the bosses in return for wages. It's an unequal trade as the bosses massively profit from it while we get the crumbs. The class struggle is all about the struggle between those of us who don't own or control the means of production and those who do, and the eventual destruction of the capitalist system and the creation of a communist one.

But I guess you knew that already and were just being a proper dip.

Anyway, back to trans stuff.

It's also about analysis of society, not about categorising individuals. I do categorise myself as working class, but I don't see the point in making a song and dance about it.

Can we have a competition to see who has the most Top Prole Points please? I wonder who'd win? And the one with the most TPPs could be... er... the King or Queen of Libcom.
Go on. Can we? Can we?

Where did I say I don't live in a working class area? Not that I know what that is. I live in a 1901 four-in-a-block with a tiny garden which is more of a wasteland with a stone shed out the back in a dormitory town in Scotland. Asda is 3 minutes walk and I can see a row of satellite dishes out my window, is that working class enough for you? I mean, it's nice enough but it's not a fucking mansion.

And nowhere in your original post did you say "working class area" you said GB estate, not that it even means anything in terms of class. You get bourgeois on estates too you know!

original post. It was you that started all this "if your not from an estate or w working cliss area" stuff, why did you start it? Because I said I have not spent much of my life living on council estates!

That's true. Plenty of streets in 'working class areas' get gentrified. On the other hand, I've got a mate lives in a cheap one bedroom flat in a massive house that's been converted into flats and bedsits. The rest of the street is really posh and might even have some proper capitalist types there

Of course, he's a fucking traitor for living in that street and should get out now and live somewhere proper working class.
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Then I can move in when he's gone

Unbelievable. You derailed it!

But of course, let's resume. Do you have a relevant response to what I said way back there before you went off on a working class identity rant? Or perhaps to Serge's idea of calling out the trans haters on their own secret shit?

deleted

Original post. That's post #1, the first one at the top of the thread, where you say "if you live on an estate in GB". You do not mention "working class area", and nor did I until you tried to call me out for not living in one.

It's difficult to have a discussion when one party is not actually paying attention to what they've written. I might come back here if discussion with you appears possible, at the moment it doesn't.

This is about the only time that I am 'proud'* of being bought up on a council estate. So someone can't play the prolier than thou card. Come on gentlemen kiss and make up.

When I lived on an estate we never talked about trans. gender. We just nicked stuff from ASDA and smoked....

Arguing the trans. side against a bigot is often infuriating....

*not that I am ashamed. I just think it is a non-issue amongst fellow political travellers....

I meet a lot more ignorant people than I do bigots, and I think that's where you need to start. Making trans ideas and issues more widely understood then makes the bigots increasingly isolated, more easily identifiable and means they are more regularly called out for their shit.

yes your right lzbl, there is a gradation between ignorance and bigotry and it is possible to change peoples minds. I'm just not totally sure how . I used to have some pretty bigoted views on homosexuality/queer and the like when I was younger. but I grew out of it, and I'm not really sure how

Probably because in conversation with other people you slowly realised those ideas were wrong and replaced them with a better understanding. I've had some fairly stupid ideas in the past (from 'put all men in camps' to 'I don't think identifying as a feminist is useful', and also 'hahahaha non-binary gender hahahaha' ) but through discussion and learning I've developed away from all of them (and become less of a fuckwit).

I KNEW IT!

jokes

yeah, I have gathered its a gradual thing. it's just hard to pinpoint how/when it happened, in order to offer tactical advice to other people....

Back to the OP for a second. BJJ can you give us more information about what 'standing against' anti-trans bigotry entails. I will admit that sometimes it feels good to stand-up and be counted, call them all the names under the sun, and be done with it. I been there plenty of times. But it isn't always useful in the long term (and in the short term you may be ostracized* or lamped out). I have sometimes find it easier to shrug things off and make them sound really trivial works to calm people down.

just shrug, ya know, people can wear what they want.

BUT IT IS A MAN WEARING WOMEN'S CLOTHES!

yeah, he likes womens clothes, who cares? It's just clothes

I find something like this eventually leads to the conversation exhausting itself and the other guy looking a bit sheepish about bringing the whole thing up in such a bombastic way.

*not necessarily a bad thing

After reading some second wave feminism, I used to think that transgenderism was reactionary in that, by switching from male to female (or vice versa), it reinforced the false gender binary and in turn patriarchy But then I saw a post on libcom which effectively said if gender isn't a fixed concept then why make a fuss at all and I also had an email exchange with a member of the Edinburgh Anarcha-Feminist Kollective, which I've now lost and completely forgotten. Again

I'm still pretty ignorant tbh, so I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction? x

Edit: As for being bigoted about homosexuality, I remember saying something when I was in year 7 (I think) about Will Young coming out and my sister bollocked me and told me it doesn't mean he automatically likes me.

Yeah, there is definitely something in the idea homophobia contains a fear of male on male sexual assault. If I was better at psycho-analysis I would write a book about it. Anti- trans-gender tirades are different though....

Admin: snip

Started off so well! Good start to the thread, albeit a little stereotyping of people on all working class estates - or areas, if you wish - as typically awful. My experience of, for instance council estates, has shown me that there is a surprising amount of very different people living in there. But, I know the sorts you're talking about who are aggressive bigots - I always tread carefully and play the long game here, not to dive down their throats and quote them from some beardo about where they're going wrong.
Brazilian, you need to stop lashing out here. Stop presuming everyone's middle class because they're not divvies.