Cuba shit or wot?

Nah mate, you got me all wrong. I'm a socialist, first and foremost. I just think the best way to fight class struggle is through working class self-activity rather than relying on central committees and party bureaucrats.

Who said they were? What is the point you're trying to make?

TBH mate, I don't think there is much of a dialogue here. I seem to be writing things and you don't address anything I say. I mean, I write a fat thing about seperation of political and economic freedom and you reply with "revolutionary conditions ain't perfect". Anyway, at least you know it's class

Also, found this interview with Che's grandson, thought it would interest you:

http://www.enrager.net/newswire/stories.php?story=05/01/04/4317191

:red:

Oh come off it, i may not be a supporter of cuba but the way you describe it is as if its some sort of hell hole where anyone who says anything criticising the state is immediately shot and they all survive on bread and water every day. Please stick to the economic and material realities don't drown us all in sentimental liberalism and hysteria out of some CIA ''factbook'' or whatever.

and Joe Hill

Cuba isn't communist, the workers don't own the means of production, the bureacracy does. And while fidels regime is better than cuba being a US colony, what is your response to the slow creep of the market into cuban society and the slow erosion of state institutions,? Does that not prove, as was demonstrated in the USSR and China, that the planning of a bureacracy cannot eliminate the law of value?

Bakunin also denounced Marxists as a “Jewish German” conspiracy to destroy the labour movement and calling for the annihilation of all Jews.

Yeah, but also only a revolution that is international will succeed. Also, the Cuban revolution was led by a few guerilla fighters from the hills. Hardly the 'self-emancipation of the working class'.

Joe - I think we share similar views.

But a socialist society means workers' have control. All of these wonderful things like health etc show what planning can do...but this planning should be in control of the entire population. Would you agree?

Wasnt the cuban 'revolution' more of a coup?

A group of bandits, a number from over seas, taking over the running of a country with arms, sure there may have been some salutory effects, but it was still a coup.

I agree with the sentiment as long as we apply it within reason, but how does that relate to state planning by a bureacracy? Are you claiming the proletariat can't defend themselves and run their own economic production in a revolutionary situation? Are the proletariat to be dismissed as headless chickens without the means of communication and self organisation?

I just think that with international support, a revolution succeeded will be more of a possibility. Otherwise it will be a constant war against global capital, which will aim at strangling the economy (look at Chile and Cuba).

Take out "rich" and insert "powerful" and that's modern day Cuba. It's no workers' paradise mate. Noone's claiming that it was better under Batista or anything (don't be so riduculous) but your hysterical claim that we cannot criticise it from a libertarian (not to mention socialist) perspective is banal and ill-advised.

If Cuba is what we are fighting for than we might as well stop right now. I cant believe that anyone with socialist ideals could claim it as a vicotry. Better off? Sure. But that is way different than being some communist paradise.

I don't really care if Cuba's self-proclaimed left wing or not, that does not remove my right (ugh) to criticise it. There is absolutely no reason why any libertarian should withhold criticism of the Castro regime.

Mate I just fucking said that there had been improvements. Please read the posts I make...

Anarchists aren't the cream, that's the job of the SWP. We're a bunch of part-timers who happened to spot a couple of problems with leftist dogma.

Currently Cuba is basing what lifestyle improvements it can manage for its workers almost entirely on its ability to sell to the outside capitalist world. It has invested vast sums of money in luxury hotels and putting up fucking idiots like maradona for free, while fidel and friends live in obscene luxury. The economy is - sadly - collapsing under the weight of its health and education system since aid from the USSR dried up and will almost certainly will have to be cut.

There's an anarchist history of Cuba (the name of which escapes me), which isn't amazing but does give a good idea of how that government works, and it's no more in favour of the people than any other socialist experiment. They attacked and broke the Anarchist movement in Cuba (which was huge) when they took power, exiled its leaders and then coerced the few elderly figures who remained into denouncing their old comrades. While they were taking on the anarchists they happily sold out the workers several times and co-operated with the capitalists.

They don't tolerate political dissent, attack gays, and run sweatshops. They're probably better than a capitalist system would be, at least until the money runs out, but don't hold any illusions that they're a good government or something anarchists should support unequivocally. I'm not attacking Cuba here, just pointing out that to be conned into simply saying they're great no questions asked is as much indoctrination as anything else.

Maybe this should be a separate thread? With a title like 'is Cuba shit or wot?'

Compared with most countries in the Caribean, Cuba's literacy, health care and life expectancy are much better. This despite ol' USA efforts to destabilise the ecomony (with quite a degree of sucess). But the opportunities for working class people to develop the 'gains of the revolution' are largely non-existant. Change is from above, power effectively resides with the ruling elite.

Economically and structurally Cuba is light years ahead of any of its Carribean neighbours. However, that's no great feat since none of them has ever managed to get away from an old-style colonial economy relying on the production of basic commodities for export and more recently on an ultra-exploitative tourist industry. Coming from, for example, Jamaica to Cuba, you are instantly struck with the concrete buildings, roads, hospitals etc. However, when you scratch the surface the inequalities and injustices remain. When I visited Cuba in the 1990's I stayed with a fisherman in Santiago, whose family of 8 or 9 lived in a two room shack with a corrugated iron roof, then I lodged with a communist party honcho who owned a 18th century mansion in old havana which he ran as a guest house for dollars. My (poor) Cuban friends had to walk a good distance away from me on the streets for fear of getting pulled by the ubiquitous secret police. At the time there were the first signs of a parallel dollar economy, with all the well stocked shops selling goods in dollars only and with crowds of people touring around looking for shops that stocked food in pesos. This economy has intensified since and the black economy has given rise to a class of gangster-capitalists.

In short, it's probably a 'better' model than the old-style colonies of the region, but it is very, very far from being anything that you could aspire towards.

Joe Hill

WHAT?

Oh, i get what your saying now. Sorry, a bit slow on the up-take. The admins strated the split of the thread from your post. I was wondering is it possible to move some the posts after the 1st Cuba post which are refering to to original thread. Is this too technical differcult, loads of hassle, am i being a real pain.

I think we should oppose the USA state's embargo against Cuba whilst reconigsing Cuba's poor human rights record and the strong sense of loyality those over 25 seem to have to 'the Revolution'. BTW how much does cuba get paid Guantanamo Bay? Is it we won't level you or what?

Oh come off it. Obviously you posted this thread about cuba to start an arguement.

I mean honestly your arguement seems to deny even the basics of self-criticism. Now that IS stalinist in the truest sense of the word.

No-ones pretending that it is bloody difficult to establish a truly communist society with the military might of the US bearing down on you. And obviosuly without Russian backing, cuba would have gone back to becoming a colony of the US like costa rica which would have made it a lot worse, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't criticise the regime in any way. Its not like anyone here goes out of their way to publish pamphlets attacking castro anyway, because that would be mental.

john

Course not.

Its a joke, and it possibly might have been designed to show the irrelevance of this arguement, or it might have been just to wind you up. It seems all too easy to do really....

How is this arguement ''real life''. This is an internet forum and cuba is thousands of miles away. You can't tell the cuban working class whats best for them anymore than i can, what we say here is utterly irrelevant.

Most people on here don't go around publishing articles vigourously attacking cuba, and every one here would be out in anti-war rallies like a shot if US troops ever invaded cuba so its not even relvant in terms of international solidarity. No one here has the mad shakmanite (sp?) analysis you keepo accusing us of.

You'd think so, tho i don't do actually it that much in fairness. And no its not the aim of the forum obviously the aim is organising things on a day to day basis, but this thread has nothing to do with that does it. Anyway perhaps your right, 'wind up' spunds too nasty, perhaps tease is better.

In this case, in terms of an arguement about cuba its what the left tend to do. I mean if ''official communists'' trots and anarchists didn't resolve their differences in comradely good humour we'd all be screeching at each other constantly, which wouldn't be very productive.

For example you just ranting that someone is a fucking halfwit and not answering his criticisms at all is somehwat pointless don't you think.

See that was almost light hearted humour, except you had to ruin it by apologising

Oh really, so i suppose trying to guilt trip people is a great example of marxian socialism is it? Jeez you aren't half a bourgeois individualist sometimes... I'm a marxist, i don't go around making stupid nihilist jokes about iraq because i'm not an asshole, but on the other hand i don't blame the proletariat for the crimes and excesses of the bourgeoisie obviously. Sitting there watching the news constantly and getting really depressed and activisty isn't going to help anyone. So i watch a movie instead, thats life i'm afraid.

Oh what nonsense, although i admit it is extremely cruel that the fate of your gender has denied you that masters in philosophy and the full access to education given to us bastards.

http://www.enrager.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1396

And if you're interested that pretty much sums up the class backgrounds of enragers users. Not surprisingly for an internet forum it averages at a ''lower-middle'' or ''upper-working'' class backgroun. In case you wondered i fall into the lower-middle class part of it i guess.

Only when you get all angry and rant about solidarnosc every couple of posts, but don't worry its quite endearing really.

john

Don't go in a huff Joe Hill.

Jason Cortez wrote:

"I think we should oppose the USA state's embargo against Cuba whilst reconigsing Cuba's poor human rights record and the strong sense of loyality those over 25 seem to have to 'the Revolution'."

I was asked to join the Cuba Solidarity group in Belfast (years ago) by an ex member of the Communist Party of Ireland. I asked him was membership open to people who opposed the embargo who were also opposed to Fidels regime. He duely checked with the secretary, a member of the CPI, and came back with the answer 'no'.

Bet you are all glad youse know that now.

nitey nite

Are you on crack??