Effective resistance

Jack does.

yeah but jack just wants to get into middle class trot girls.

What kind of excuse is that? I once shagged the daughter of a Tory cabinet minister, but you didn't catch me joining the Conservative Party.

numerically i don't think thats true. And rather than basing your calculations on your own group or some other tiny group we would need to look at class struggle anarchists in the whole country.

And why shouldn't we spread propaganda and material to SWPers? I always do...

one thing to remember is that never do stuff only based on how you got involved yourself because that might not be the reason or the way the next dude gets involved. The fact is that there are thousands of people getting involved in various protest movements with their heart in the right place.

Are we now only talking about summit protests, and not things like anti-deportation campaigns? So, what about anti-detention centre protest during the G8 - i went there and despite it being totally useless, it was still a pretty uplifting event and it was a shame how anarchists were not visible there at all.

Or perhaps i am just a sucker for a sea of red and black flags...

A few pages back, the Irrational one specifically poionted out that trying to recruit from exisint left groups was too Sparty. What I'm talking about is having a presence to try to hoover up people before they're hardened political hacks -- tr provide opportunities for involvement in better politics.

Opposing war, corporations, etc is important, and the libertarian/direct action tradition has a very effective history in doing this, and this needs to be kept alive -- as well as committed day-to day activity. It's just a joined up political approach.

your just looking for a job with New Libertarian Communism.

That would be soooo sweet 8)

he said "What I'm talking about is having a presence to try to hoover up people before they're hardened political hacks".

before i would assume, is the operative word here mate.

I don't know about Lazlo, but I think that (a) not everyone who joins a left group is a "hardened political hack" but (b) orienting towards trying to recruit from those groups is Spartish. It just doesn't work on a scale which makes it worthwhile.

Basically if you are trying to fight a group over a new recruit, the group they have already joined has a huge inbuilt advantage in the argument. If you are trying to recruit someone who has been around a while they are likely to be "hardened" and therefore not going anywhere unless they are disillusioned by their own experiences. People do go from one group to another whether from Leninism to Anarchism of varying sorts, or vice versa or some swap within those broad categories but group members just aren't worth the hassle strategically unless you have some kind of close personal connection with them.

It took me a year to talk one of my best friends out of the SWP. (She's now a fulltimer for the Socialist Party though).

First off, Laz and JDMF, for all the shit I hang on you, I do actually reckon you're alright. I do realise that we're arguing about the finer points of the finer points of our politics. Basically, don't take any of this thread personally. Buddies?

Why does it matter if Globalise Resistance look flash? I didn't even know they were still going and I practically live in this activist quagmire! To most people, they're an irrelevance. Recruiting the odd member from them might be nice but will it directly build a radical working class movement? Definately not. Will building a radical working class movement recruit some of their members? Probably, yes.

I think summit protests are an abstract protest movement and trying to build from it is trying to create a movement from a series of abstract protests and not from everyday life. Even if you are doing loads of good stuff, you're still devoting some time to abstract political activism which will be about as successful in achieving our aims as trying to find hen's teeth (you might find a few, but its not worth the effort really, is it?).

Mate, you keep ignoring my point here. As revol says: JDMF i think your missing the point abit, Ed and others including myself got involved in summit hopping shit cos there was [no] other visible gateway, we got involved in anarchism in spite of the activisty stuff not because of it.

I think it is. Pretty much every anarcho I've ever met was a Leninist at some point if not an actual party member. It'd be interesting to do a poll actually.

And the point isn't about engaging with SWPers. The point is, you wouldn't get involved with the SWP in order to recruit them to decent libertarian politics. So why should we get involved in what we see as ultimately fruitless summit activism just to recruit some people?

Great, I'm glad you feel better for it. I still don't think it was worth all the down-points (stated earlier) just for a bit of a morale boost. I also don't think it would boost your morale if you looked at it as part of the whole protest which, let's be honest, was a failure.

Anyway, not sure I can be arsed with this anymore. We'll talk at the bookfair (pint glasses under the table ). All the best you lot.

Don't know much about the Sparts, and there's at least two groups called the sparts, but I think they're talking about these ones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Communist_League_%28Fourth_Internationalist%29

Working in areas which directly affect us isn't going to create a revolutionary situation any time soon. What it should do is build confidence and solidarity amongst people, by showing that gains can be won. As people realise they can change things themselves, the goals will be set higher, and so on. Workmates and neighbours who know each other and can work collectively without deferring to management in every eventuality are more likely to be able to respond to attacks on their working and living conditions as well - at the moment I think just about all activity is defensive on some level.

It's impossible for individuals or small groups to affect things globally - unless they're connected to many, many other individuals and groups across regions and internationally and can co-ordinate with them when necessary. If we all retreat into parochialism - without linking local issues to international and structural ones (which they nearly always are) - it's got very little chance of having any long-term or widespread effect.

The Spartacist League (see this Wikipedia article) are a particularly mental and cultish trot sect.

It's not so much the local wins themselves that are revolutionary, more the way they're achieved. If people manage to achieve things by organising in libertarian ways, without relying on the state for help, it (hopefully) gives them the confidence to use those methods more widely, eventually taking over all the useful stuff the state does and thus undermining its power. If that makes any sense...

Edit: In other words, what Catch just said far more eloquently than me...

Well, like I've said before, the plane of everyday life is not the only place that politics happens, and I feel, personally, that I am part of a wide movement that does both local and 'abstract' stuff. You're not saying there should be no anti-war protests are you? And if there should be anti-war action, I think it should be as effective as possible, i.e. based in direct action.

Not sure I can be arsed with this anymore either. I think we've both said are pieces, and are now repeating ourselves.

See you at the bookfair, if I make it to that abstract event

hehe almost the same post.

This is the important bit

We need to be able to propose alternatives methods of organising everything that the state and capitalism currently does - including the process of replacing some things and getting rid of others. This can only happen by people taking control of things themselves.

A good example of this is the police - on demonstrations people are very keen to try to undermine or attack their authority in that context - by physical confrontation, ridicule, highlighting brutality etc. etc. what that doesn't do is undermine the authority of policing in general - support for which is widespread because of anti-social behaviour, muggings, burglary, crack dealing- no matter how useless they are at actually dealing with it, not to mention institutional racism and the fucked up justice system in general, we need to deal with the causes of anti-working class crime and be able defend our communities from it. When the police have less of a monopoly on this, then their true role as strike/protest breakers and defenders of private capital will be thrown into sharp relief.

i'm not going to come to the bookfair to mingle with the fucking lifestylist rockclimbers who are not even from the same area where the bookfair is organised.

Sure if it was the local community which run it and the whole bookfair was organised by the workers of the venue, perhaps then (shit i just realised, if the fair would be organised by the local community and workers, then could i even come there since i am not from there? No win situation...).

It's funny, the "anti-social" lifestylistists propose concrete solutions, actions and alternatives in "abstract" political environments (summits..etc) and the Libcom'ites propose very abstract solutions to the "every day politics".

ha!

Yeah. Fuckin' book-fair hoppers.

Post of the year.

except does anyone think the bookfair is some sort of action in itself? As far as im concerned it's just a chance to meet up with people, getted pissed and buy some decent books. Infact i'd admit that im often tempted to go along to wanky G8 actions for similar reasons but i would never pretend that it was some sort of threat to capital. The reason i didn't use the G8 in scotland as such an occasion was cos i was broke and knew i couldn't bite my tongue at all the activist muppets thinking they were being oh so wadical.

So not the point. cheap and sloppy. Bookfairs are a networking oppportunity, not going in and possibly mucking with peoples' struggles uninvited and with nothing to contribute but a big mouth and a self-accredited degree in being a reevolushunairy and klas struggles (damn, no good misspelling for that one.) Apples and assholes, man.

chris

Well, I think that's underestimating the Bookfair's importance in keeping us linked up. For one thing, meeting up face to face is one thing that stops these e-arguments turning into really messy flame-fests 8)

So basically I shouldn't bother?

more like assholes and cocks mate, just can't decide which one is which...

nah refused it's worth going just to meet up with people you get on with. As much as im a biggy scary heterosexual I have to admit that I made some really good friends via the bookfair.

Anyway since im being all emotional and dare i say it dangling above a lake of gayness I'd actuallly like to meet up with you in real life as you seem like a sound guy who has a sense of humour. Of course im not going to be at the bookfair but it'd be cool if you met with a few of the cool people from Libcom, you know who youse are.

yeah, i think it will be a good day out, and a good opportunity to meet friends and stuff.

Also, it will be nice to meet some libcom peeps - even the ones who i have had fierce disagreements with. Last year i met only couple, like jack, john and couple others but they/you were all very nice and sound people, so looking forward to meeting you again.

And looks like there will be a few people going from manchester, so the journey can be used efficiently to revolutionary rant. Refused, unfortunately that car ride fell through, my mate couldn't get the day off work (fuck Royal Mail!), so it looks like a bus ride

Oi! I'm a total bastard. I don't want the libcom laydeez thinking I'm some kind of lame-ass "nice" guy. Retch.

But yeah refused you should come. What JDMF doesn't understand is that the bookfair's not an action aimed at kicking capitalism till it breaks.

See, you don't get it. Assholes and cocks go together, apples and assholes don't, which reminds me of a joke.

Guy goes to the doctor and complains that he has a tapeworm.

Doctor says "Drop your pants" and shoves an apple up the guys asshole.

The guy says "Damn doc, what the hell was that for."

Doctor says, "Don't worry about it, just come back tomorrow."

Guy comes back the next day and the doctor does the same thing.

Guy says, "Doc, what the FUCK are you doing?"

Doctor says, "Don't worry about it, just come back one more time"

Guy comes back the next day.

The doctor holds an apple outside his asshole. The tapeworm pops its head out and says "Hey, where the fuck is my apple?" and the doctor smacks it over the head with a bat.

"Works every time!"

chris

I rest my case!