History

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lem
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Erm, this topic may make no sense. But, history... its important to Marxism, no? How?

More questions to follow, if anyone can make me see the issue more clearly confused

So if "history" sets off any thoughts on anything in anyone's head, please, tell me about them lol

Thanks

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confused indeed

er, well marx's entire understanding of social relations is based on their developments over time, plus his works are very much informed by the rapidly changing historical events of his lifetime (the rapid development of capitalism, the paris commune etc).

lem
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grin
this is a stupid idea.
so... marxist theory and practice are generated and continue to be modified by historical events? I guess that proletarian conditions are the result of past events? Would Marx say that there is a narrative? What was Althussers anti-historicism all about? Sorry, just fishing for ideas, must be something really interesting, to do with this, somewhere iyswim.

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lem wrote:
grin
this is a stupid idea.
so... marxist theory and practice are generated and continue to be modified by historical events? I guess that proletarian conditions are the result of past events? Would Marx say that there is a narrative? What was Althussers anti-historicism all about? Sorry, just fishing for ideas, must be something really interesting, to do with this, somewhere iyswim.

i'm not much of a marxist so this is where i cop out wink

i'm sure there is something interesting about history and marx in general tongue

lem
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Joseph K wrote:
i'm not much of a marxist so this is where i cop out ;)

Well, if you want roll eyes you could say, I dunno, as an anarchist - are there laws of historical change. Anything else, should we realize our place in history, how does the past inform practice, erm, you think that a conception of history has any use, erm... grin

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there are only laws of history with hindsight.

those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

thats my paradoxical (i mean dialectical wink ) philosophy of history grin

lem
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thats my paradoxical (i mean dialectical ) philosophy of history

Hmm. Do you ever feel the need for a more sophisticated philosophy of history.

You don't feel that if we're going to learn from history, we ought to know what it is? Sort of like, it might say how we need to think about things that are in the past. Maybe that asking too much.

The ICC think they are the historical memory of the class, or something, maybe they have something to say on this subject confused

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tbh, my post was a joke. i don't feel a need for any particular philosophy of history. I mean its useful to know what stuff happened in given circumstances, so we can draw lessons for situations we face. I mean stuff like saying 'history is the history of class struggle' is always an over simplification.

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Lem it's not particularly easy to help when you don't really ask a question.
In my opinion.
Knowledge of history is important, firstly because we need to know where we are and how we got here; secondly because we need to look at examples of actions from the past to give us an idea of what we should do in similar situations.
Trying to shoehorn history into a narrative is not something of interest to us as it will in no way lead us closer to a revolution.

lem
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jef costello wrote:
we need to know where we are and how we got here

Tbf this sounds even more vague than my question tongue Can you explain?

Quote:
we need to look at examples of actions from the past to give us an idea of what we should do in similar situations

Do you think that a philosophy of past/present/future would be useful in the task of learning, from the past, or even in our present actions?

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Trying to shoehorn history into a narrative is not something of interest to us as it will in no way lead us closer to a revolution

This would be an anti-Marxist thing to say though? Or just anti-marxist-leninist?

Thanks for the replies

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To understand why we live in a capitalist society we must understand what a capitalist society is and how it has maintained itself so far. It's less important to understand the preceding feudal societies, if indeed they were particularly different, which I doubt.
We must look at how capitalism works in terms of social, economic, military, ideological forces. Capitalism is a relaton of power, it can maintain itself in many ways.

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This would be an anti-Marxist thing to say though? Or just anti-marxist-leninist?

Well I haven't read much marx and no lenin so hard for me to say. But Marx believed in historical inevitability, that the working class must sooner or later free itself. I do not agree with this, as long as there is a working class there will be the potential for it to become free, this does not mean that it necessarily will.
History is not a narrative, it is continuous, we can understand it. We can see global trends emerge after the fact but they are never inevitable and they are not part of any grand scheme. Whatever happens happens because the historical conditions lead it in this direction. Conditions can include deliberate actions by the working clas or the bourgeoisie or market pressures or any number of events.

Capitalism did not necessarily follow feudalism, but it did. Whilst we need to understand why and how this transition took place we must never believe that it was inevitable, or part of a greater process, it was simply what happened.

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jef costello wrote:
To understand why we live in a capitalist society we must understand what a capitalist society is and how it has maintained itself so far. It's less important to understand the preceding feudal societies, if indeed they were particularly different, which I doubt.
We must look at how capitalism works in terms of social, economic, military, ideological forces. Capitalism is a relaton of power, it can maintain itself in many ways.
Quote:
This would be an anti-Marxist thing to say though? Or just anti-marxist-leninist?

Well I haven't read much marx and no lenin so hard for me to say. But Marx believed in historical inevitability, that the working class must sooner or later free itself. I do not agree with this, as long as there is a working class there will be the potential for it to become free, this does not mean that it necessarily will.
History is not a narrative, it is continuous, we can understand it. We can see global trends emerge after the fact but they are never inevitable and they are not part of any grand scheme. Whatever happens happens because the historical conditions lead it in this direction. Conditions can include deliberate actions by the working clas or the bourgeoisie or market pressures or any number of events.

Capitalism did not necessarily follow feudalism, but it did. Whilst we need to understand why and how this transition took place we must never believe that it was inevitable, or part of a greater process, it was simply what happened.

Well firstly, we need to understand history if we are to even draw a line between feudalism and capitalism, so clearly it is important to have some grasp. The very fact that you can seperate feudalism and capitalism implies that some knowledge or concept of feudalism.

Secondly Marx said alot of theings, but the thing about the inevitability of communism was a statement more of propaganda vlaue. Like how someone at a strike can say "Have no doubt, we will win!". There are vast tracts of Marx that completely contradict such crude determinism, and infact hsi whole argument with Hegel was that humanity itself made history, that the dialectic was not a closed circuit aimed towards reconciliation but rather an open ended one, that could never grasp it's own tail, that their could be no synthesis, this is why marx talked about the negation of the negation.

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revol68 wrote:
Secondly Marx said alot of theings, but the thing about the inevitability of communism was a statement more of propaganda vlaue. Like how someone at a strike can say "Have no doubt, we will win!".

I did wonder about that, but as I said, I've not read any Marx.
I've heard others accuse him of determinism aND HE HAS CERTAINLY BEEN READ IN THat way (sorry for shouting, I'm drunk smile)I remember someone claiming that Marx had predicted consumer culture. I wasn't convinced. What is important is the analysis offered by Marx or whoever it is. We cannot expect the future to be predicted by anyone other than a prophet. We can simply do what we can to get to what we want and where someone has a useful idea of how to do this we should listen to them. But we should always engage with the ideas.

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three texts suggest themselves as possibly being relevant in the context of this debate:

Alan Carter: Marx: A Radical Critique (Boulder: Westview Press / Brighton: Wheatsheaf Books, 1988)
see his home page:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~cartera/carter.html

G.A. Cohen "Karl Marx's Theory of History: A defence"
brief summary here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Cohen

Cornelius Castoriadis "History and Revolution"

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MalFunction wrote:
three texts suggest themselves as possibly being relevant in the context of this debate:

Alan Carter: Marx: A Radical Critique (Boulder: Westview Press / Brighton: Wheatsheaf Books, 1988)
see his home page:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~cartera/carter.html

G.A. Cohen "Karl Marx's Theory of History: A defence"
brief summary here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Cohen

Cornelius Castoriadis "History and Revolution"

Cohen's is a shite reworking of "forces of production determinism", it's not worth shite.

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For those seeking other marxist perpsectives on "history" - and there are whole journals associated with it yuo might also like to enquire within:

E.P. Thompson "The Poverty of Theory and other essays". merlin, 1978

Raphael Samuel (ed) "People's History and Socialist Theory" RKP, 1981

Raphael Samuel and Gareth Stedman Jones "Culture, ideology and Politics" RKP, 1982.

the last two are part of the History Workshop series. I've not seen recent issues of the Journal but certainly late 70's early 80s there was a lot of theorising around marxist interpretations of "history".

on a different tip again you may find Mark poster's "Foucault, Marxism and History" to be of interest:

http://www.humanities.uci.edu/mposter/books/

(the complete text is online)

lem
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those seeking other marxist perpsectives on "history" - and there are whole journals associated with it you might also like to enquire within

Hmmm, what use is a philosophy of history?

Can you even have a philosophy of society without ideas about history (If Marx was all about history)? What use, then, is a philosophy of society?

confused

(Still fishing for ideas for an essay, hope that is OK)

Cheers

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Lem i'm not following, the concept of a philosophy of history is to try and understand how things developed and where they might be heading.

lem
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You see, I really want to write an esasy, on Heideggerian conceptions of history and action etc.

But, I suppose you could say that a meta-theory of what is history or action is false.

So how can I elaborate on these concepts while bearing in mind the above, which I guess, is important. And, if this isn't logically impossible, what use would it be to know "how things develop and where they might be heading" confused

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I think you'll be in a bit of a pickle writing an essay on Heideggerian conceptions of history, unless you have a huge body of knowledge and an angle.

I think Heidegger never really put forward a conceptual model of history in the way that someone like Marx did. The trendy reading of Time and Being is to basically make him a proto Sartre or Camus. Examining a highly individualized Dasein as it struggles to make sense of existentialist angst, but that's a wee bit revisionist because the Dasein is very much linked to the community, to the volk, something obvious in his reactionary critique of liberalism and a history that focus's on such petty trivial matters as "peasants wars" and "natural history". For Heidegger, the class war, and everyday life was unauthentic, not real history. Real history only begins when these unauthentic pseudo histories (histories of unauthentic dasein) are superceded by a real Existenz.

Unlike Marx who thought that to get to this authentic "ezistenz" (or communism in his lingo) the class struggle had to be seen through and that real ezistenz can only come about through this struggle of the working class. Heidegger saw fascism as an authentic force, a real historical force that would wipe out the mailaise of "nihilism" that had affected liberal capitalism. Class is an inauthentic form of Dasein, whilst the "German nation" with it's historical mission is an authentic one.

Just out of interest why the fuck would you want to write an essay on that Nazi fuck wit anyway?

Actually you should write and essay on Heidegger and Marx, the commonality of "labour" as what seperates humans from the rest of nature, from objects and then examine how Heidegger ended up proclaiming "Arbeit mach frei" and Marx ends up seeking the abolishment of work.

Here's an interesting quote to start you.

Quote:
The Being of beings is not exhausted in the Being of objects. Such an erroneous view could only prosper – indeed, it must -- where things are from the outset approached as “objects,” a standpoint that presupposes the concept of man as “subject.” Beings however never reveal themselves primordially via the scientific cognition of objects, but in the labor that flourishes in essential moods and in the historical mission of a Volk that determines them
lem
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Actually you should write and essay on Heidegger and Marx, the commonality of "labour" as what seperates humans from the rest of nature, from objects and then examine how Heidegger ended up proclaiming "Arbeit mach frei" and Marx ends up seeking the abolishment of work

I just found it interesting how Heidegger's engaged action and authenticity might be different to Marxists. Felt that this might be where his Nazism comes from.
I would not be surprised if its massively unimportant.
confused

lem
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I'm thinking now, more of contrasting Merleau-Ponty and Heidegger, and asking what is it in their philosophy that implies Marxism/Nazism.

Does anyone have anything they want, to share, on Merleau-Ponty's Marxism smile

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History is a word used to give meaning to a discipline based on half truths, subjectivity and bizarre attempts at narratives. However since we can't be objective about anything, theres not much point in trying to rant on about how history does't exist, its just a crude tool and a means of analysis. So to go on about how we should spend our time demonstrating that bistry doesn't exist is post-modern pseudo-theoretical nonsense that achieves nothing.
It would the equivalent of going around saying that the word 'shovel' doesn't accurately describe all the facets and actions of a spade.

lem wrote:
Does anyone have anything they want, to share, on Merleau-Ponty's Marxism :)

Merleau ponty was a marxist? I haven't read tons of his stuff but he seemed like a pretty dull philosopher to me with very little to offer.

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Cantdocartwheels: all disciplines are based on half truths, subjectivity and bizarre attempts at narratives. It is how we try to build more useful models of reality through the use of a discipline that is important; that is the key to the philosophy of history or indeed of any field of research.

Generally: Marx produced a structural description of history that has hampered clear thinking on the part of generations of his followers ever since. You don't anymore need Marx to have good radical history, in other words to appreciate that by understanding one event or series of events you might just discover some underlying phenomenon that can be of use generally to enhance our historical understanding.

I don't believe that by modern standards Marx was a good historian. He was a highly educated and knowledgeable man but he created this creaking structural view of history that on closer examination is at best a crude representation of social and economic development; at worst it is tendentious guesswork motivated by a desire to serve an over-arching theory. It's outdated and pretty much useless except as a piece of evidence in itself; the attempts by Marx's followers to reinject some utility into the old fucker's theories have done little more than balance increasingly precarious ornamentation on a seriously unstable structure.

By the way CdoCW a shovel is not a spade and to use the word to mean a spade would just be completely wrong; these two tools are different shapes and designed to do different things. Only in Devon might you find that some confusion exists because a so-called "devon spade" is actually a long handled shovel.

lem
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cantdocartwheels wrote:
History is a word used to give meaning to a discipline based on half truths, subjectivity and bizarre attempts at narratives. However since we can't be objective about anything, theres not much point in trying to rant on about how history does't exist, its just a crude tool and a means of analysis. So to go on about how we should spend our time demonstrating that bistry doesn't exist is post-modern pseudo-theoretical nonsense that achieves nothing.
It would the equivalent of going around saying that the word 'shovel' doesn't accurately describe all the facets and actions of a spade.
lem wrote:
Does anyone have anything they want, to share, on Merleau-Ponty's Marxism :)

Merleau ponty was a marxist? I haven't read tons of his stuff but he seemed like a pretty dull philosopher to me with very little to offer.

So did you write that, just to annoy me then angry

I've read some Merleau-Ponty, and I think you are fairly wrong... he's very well respected, but died young. I guess he wasn't as imaginative (roll eyes) as Sartre, who at the moment - I think he, pisses all over. I dunno though haven't read much.

lem
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I feel a bit bad asking all these lame questions now, but can anyone recommend a text that goes into a class struggle interpretation of Marx? Something bog-standard, but philosophically aware? I'm getting through a bit of open-marxism, but with stuff like that it seems difficult to learn about points that are not particular to them, iyswim2
I'm going to feel really stupid if some cnut says "EVERYTHING IN THE LIBRARY" wink You see, IME (I stay away from historical stuff at the mo) stuff is either very complicated, or doesn't let you know anyhting too philosophical, iyswim wink
Cheers
smile

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class struggle interpretation of Marx?

Most of them, it just depends on what you define as class struggle. wall

lem
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wall

I mean to say, that, I've been rereading Allen Wood's book, and iirc he does say that there are less objectivist interpretations, than his. can anyone point me to one, in an otherwise similat vein to his.

If the question does not seem to be answerable, then, never mind.

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I wish you would give some of perspective for us to work from.
Why didn't you say a "less objective view of class struggle"?
Because there are plenty of "objectivist" accounts of class struggle.

In that case check out Harry Cleaver and EP Thompson.

You don't make it easy, do you?

lem
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revol68 wrote:
I wish you would give some of perspective for us to work from.
Why didn't you say a "less objective view of class struggle"?
Because there are plenty of "objectivist" accounts of class struggle.

In that case check out Harry Cleaver and EP Thompson.

You don't make it easy, do you?

Yeah, like, reading capital is the sort of thing i need, in that its an analysis of what Marx said, much like Karl Marx by Allen Wood. But I've read Reading Capital, and I'm not sure that Thompson has written anything that I am looking for. Erm: anyhting else smile

Also, it would be good, to read something about how interests are constituted, in terms of struggle, not necessarily historically (though I am unsure as to what that means embarrassed) iyswim

wall

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