Local shops

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Mike Harman
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Sep 24 2005 18:13
Jack wrote:

Oh right, I forgot ebuyer was a local shop, as opposed to the online equivalent of a highstreet electronics retailer. roll eyes

Already said on-line stores were better than high street for electronics. PC World is the online equivalent of a highstreet electronics retailer, for web-only, amazon. Ebuyer not quite - they've got two warehouses in two different countries iirc.

The difference is you can buy bare-bones kits and components from ebuyer very, very cheaply - about half the price of PC World, if not a third/quarter. This means instead of upgrading your whole PC at once, you can change/add components as need be. This allows far more adaptability to advances in technology. Also, becuase it's about half the price, you can get a computer twice as good for the same money - so it'll be much longer before it's obsolete.

Ebuyer also don't try to sell you 3-year service packages for £250 quid (like Dixons, PC World all do). That £250 will buy the same computer again in 3 years, complete waste of dough - or in some cases would pay for it outright from somewhere like ebuyer. They're scammers.

Quote:

Why lie to yourself like this? Clearly Tesco is going to be fucking cheaper. I mean, try find a pint of milk for 30p in a local shop. Stuff from Tesco tastes nicer than stuff you get from local shops, too.

Yes a pint of milk is a loss-leader. TESCO sells a few basic products at a very low rate of profit (or even a loss) to get people into the store - so they'll think it's common sense that it's cheaper. Once you're in there, you'll find that lots of other things are more expensive than local shops. Veg and fruit is much more, so's plenty of other stuff.

Blacklisted
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Sep 24 2005 18:27

I dont think arguing about cd's or books and the like is necessarily a sensible argument as most of these products surely come through just a few publishers/record labels making it fairly obvious that both stores can easily get these things, an Jack might even be right in big stores may have a larger range cos of purchasing power.

However, for groceries Jack you are talking shite.

Yeh a few lines are cheaper. Yeh the veg sometimes lasts longer.

But the cheap lines is cos the big chains have enough clout and purchase power to completely screw the producers, which sucks.

Plus other lines are usually more expensive, as allready pointed out this ends up with the poor paying more for goods than the rich, and the producers are being screwed too.

And yeh of course things last longer when they are irradiated, chemical, GM, synthetic crap so that they last when they travel from a producer, all the way to a distribution hub and then out all the way to a store, causing fuck loads of pollution. And personally I dont trust all the shit going into my body cos of all this.

As for choice, thats bollocks! What choice - pepsi or coke? As an example, Britain used to produce fucking 1000's of variety of apples and now cos of the homogenised purchasing of the big stores (who control the market) most of those producers have been squeezed out of business and those varieties have dissapeared, leaving us with four or five varieties - great choice!

Also, what are some people talking about funny shaped veg or veg with mud on ffs? Cos for some strange reason we expect all our carrots to be exactly the same length, colour etc loads of smaller producers are squeezed out of business, cos their stock 'aint good enough'. This is of course transferring the land and means of production into fewer and fewer, richer and richer hands - great. It also means that fuck loads of perfectly nice food is thrown away cos its a slightly different shape and again loads of dodgy chemicals are used. And I sure as fuck hope my veg IS grown in dirt!

And of course there are other things like the huge amount fossil fuels and other resources needed to create chemicals, packaging etc etc in order to transport goods all over the place and shit - causing massive ecological damage as well as beign a major factor in our bad health (including mental health/violence etc as studies show industrial chemicals linked to neurological and hormonal develoment etc - particularly passed from mother to baby) - and this is a class issue too, industrial areas are working class areas so who dya think has worse health rates? The incinerator Ive been fighting for the last year is due to be sited next door to a major Safeways distribution centre - on the edge of the airport and M25!

As for workers rights, you're joking aint ya? Cos what Tesco treat their (agency) staff really well dont they? Like them polish warehouse workers on wildcat the other week?

And for taste - well, though this doesnt necessarily work in favour of local shops, my folks recently got an allotment and weve ben growing our own 'funny shaped, dirt covered' vegetables and they are soooooo much nicer! So if local shops source from local, organic producers then in my opinion its usually better. Yeh of course its a matter of personal taste, so its obvious aint it...

... youve got bad taste. wink

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 20:00
blacklisted wrote:

Also, what are some people talking about funny shaped veg or veg with mud on ffs?

true, i resisted responding to that ealier as i wasn't sure if they meant dirty as it was outside a shop on a busy road, or dirty because, shock.....the vegatables actually came from the ground directly to the shop, rather than going through a process of cleaned, homogenised, shaped, convenienced, synthesised etc. etc.. so that the no one has to touch something that might have a bit of dirt on it, or look at something odd shaped

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Rob Ray
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Sep 24 2005 20:13
Quote:
Oh yea, I forgot that having choice was a bad thing. Just the other day I was cursing how much I hated that fact I could choose between 6 different types of apple to find the one I wanted and liked better.

As pointed out elsewhere, increased variety is a fallacy, particularly in agriculture. The bulk nature of crop production for homogenous product lines such as Tescos means that where it used to be in Britain that we had literally hundreds of different varieties of apple, we now have about three major varieties which are grown, as Tescos etc have selected six or so which they think will sell the best and have placed those in every store.

Tomatoes are an even better example. Seen any yellow and red striped tomatoes down your local Tescos lately? Unlikely, because they don't fit into the sales strategy. I'm not saying you'll necessarily see them in a small store either, but I know at least two growers round my way (and I'm not at all well connected) who would welcome the opportunity. The local farmer's market, or indian store, or car boot sale, has more varieties or produce than any of the the major corporates.

Quote:
Why do I give the slightest fuck how 'efficently' it's produced? Stuff from a supermarket tastes just as good, costs the same if not less and allows for a far better selection. The efficency of it's production doesn't effect me in the slightest, what I care about is how cheap it is, and how much it costs. In general, a major retailer will come out better in both regards. if I have any other concern, it's how the retailer is going to treat their staff, and again it's almost certain to be better in the chain.

If produce is made/distributed more efficiently it remains cheap (as I believe you and cantdo said in your first pro-supermarket argument). As has been pointed out already this undermines the concept that supermarkets are cheaper as a whole than other places. Stuff from a supermarket doesn't taste better. No-one who actually ate non-supermarket produce would be stupid enough to claim it.

Quote:
Well, luckily I don't get my nutrition from bread. If I'm eating bread it's because it adds something to what I'm having it with. And thus I'm going to go with what's cheaper.

An ablity to sustain yourself on less food and greater health due to better nutritional input is cheaper. Go for it.

On bookshops/record stores, fair dos I guess, though I'd still say that you'll get better knowledge on a long term basis, recommendaions for other stuff etc, and in the case of music, more variety because of local bands who definitely don't get the space with big stores and won't have their stuff listed to be ordered from local sources with staff who are often professionals in their fields and have a personal reason to keep your business.

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 20:18

i reckon jack's mum does all his shopping for him, and he doesn't actually have a clue what he's talking about

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 20:25

i bet she does

bit of a food parcel for young jack

Blacklisted
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Sep 24 2005 21:07

"Yea, and my shopping there or not isn't going to effect that. Abolishing commodity exchange is what will do that. I mean what next, should I stop going to Starbucks because they're anti-union? Stop buying Nestle because they're mean to the third world?"

Yeh, cos obviously I was recommending boycotts wasnt I? You aint puttin words in my mouth at all. The argument wasnt originally about where you do or dont shop - I couldnt give a rats ass. It was about people who argue that small scale capital is an great alternative to transnational corporations and globalisation.

Glad you agree with me about the GM being bad and we agree for the same reasons. I dont give a fuck about eating it either.

"Same with pesticides. It doesn't kill me"

Scientist now are ya? The build up of chemicals in our food (and other things, water, air etc) has been shown to be a major factor in all kinds of health problems today - mental and physical, from cancer, to birth defects to violent behaviour. Also add the fact that we just dont know about cumulative effect of thousands of different chemicals, though evidence so far seems to point in the direction that it aint exactly good for us and in our country they only actually regulate and study a tiny percentage of chemicals we are exposed to.

"Again, my personal choice doesn't affect this. I'm gonna go with what I prefer and what costs me less."

Again, this wasnt the original debate, we aint discussin boycott politics.

"Yea man, it's like, unnatural."

Im just going on the evidence Ive seen as mentioned above. But if I had said the above why would I be wrong? You dont have to be some hippy to know that food grown naturally aint gonna do you any harm - food grown with chemicals MIGHT do you harm or might not. Precautionary principle.

"Uh, yes? Why is this a bad choice? Because they're both made by "bad" capitalists? They taste fucking different, I like to have the choice!"

Sorry maybe it was too light hearted a comment for your serious nature? I was attempting to make light of the fact that supermarkets have actually reduced choice by pointing out that your choice extends as far as two different versions of the same product. This choice is good I agree, Id quite like a bit more choice though thanks. You really do take everything very seriously though dont you? Maybe its the chemicals in your food that makes you aggressive?

"Yea, and all of these 1000's were freely available to the working class at will, were they? Were they bollocks."

I dont know either way, but again, please dont put words in my mouth. Where exactly did I claim they were? Anyway, post revolution (?! smile ) when everything is available to the working class Id quite like for these things to still exist - so its shame theyve mostly dissapeared from our orchards cos of supermarkets aint it?

"Far better than most local businesses, yes. Incomparably so."

Well I suppose I cant really comment on this cos havnt done any research so you might be right. How do you know this? (Im genuinely interested not trying to be a dick) Ive worked for a few large chainstores though and it wasnt much fun.

"Yep, and my personal choice is to like nice food, produced with the benefit of modern technology, chemicals and fertiliser, not organic wank"

You have some strange ideas. Can you explain how exactly chemicals and fertiliser and modern technology make your food nicer than food grown without them on allotments or my garden or whatever?

Blacklisted
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Sep 24 2005 21:07

(double post, sorry)

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 21:26

why don't you eat meat jack?

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Steven.
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Sep 24 2005 21:42

Jack - this is introductory thought, where it clearly requires no flaming

Other than that you almost have a point, but not quite. And saying food from supermarkets objectively tastes better is balls. Then again for me I don't really trust the local grocers/newsagents for vegetables, and they're all way more expensive food-wise.

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Steven.
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Sep 24 2005 21:46
Jack wrote:
I'm not flaming newbies. angry

What, you - and Ed for that matter - have to learn is that you can only be that rude and arrogant when you're completely right. And you're not.

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 21:52
Jack wrote:
I'm not flaming newbies. angry

So you honestly don't think a nice hard (chemically) ripe banana from Tesco isn't nicer than the browny soft ones you usually get from markets?

how do you know what kind of bananas we usually get from markets?

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Rob Ray
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Sep 24 2005 21:58

Which markets do you go to? You sure the stallholders don't just take one look at you and think 'he's getting some of the special stock'.

I don't eat organic food, and wasn't talking about it so don't change the subject.

Quote:
I'm sorry, are you claiming that there aren't more different types of apple to choose in Tesco than in an market or local shop? Please confirm this so I can extract the full mirth from this statement.

When did I say that? I was saying Tescos are depressing the number of varieties overall by forcing growers to conform to certain key 'sellers' to get their produce into the place. The number of UK varieties has fallen. It's not rocket science to see that overall, our choices are lessened as a result. That may not apply when comparing single independent shop to single supermarket, but as you're well aware, that would be a stupid comparison to make because there are usually several different competing sources if supermarkets aren't there.

I'm not sure why you have this blind spot with regard to capital Jack, it's the same shit line of argument you were trying with IE4 v Firefox and you got trashed in that for the same reasons, that simply repeating the effective argument of 'this is better because it's the most popular' doesn't apply when monopoly techniques are unnaturally manipulating the market.

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 22:02

this did remind me of that IE thing

although at times i also thing jack is just showing how totally radical he is by rejecting everything liked by groups that he "hates", to really reinforce how much he hates them

if that means he has to eat skanky banannas all his life then so be it

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 22:05

more ethnical?

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 22:08

more ethical?

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Rob Ray
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Sep 24 2005 22:10

Or more realistically...

Cheaper (on loss leaders, more expensive elsewhere), less tasty (perhaps debatable, for the sake of being fair) more convenient (only if you a) have a car b) live in an urban transport hub), less ethical to suppliers, more ethical to direct workforce (sometimes)

or

Mixed (cheaper on some, more expensive on others), more convenient (anywhere outside major urban centres or if you have a car), better town centre atmosphere, personal service, recyling of funds into community, no power to exploit suppliers, less ethical to direct workforce.

edit: See I can do totally scientific lists too wink

Blacklisted
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Sep 24 2005 22:11

He aint flaming, just arrogant and rude, but thats beside the point - hes also wrong. 8)

Anwyay, I aint new, I read this site quite often just dont post much on websites.

Thats interesting though, bout the bananas (which, by the way, are rough wherever you buy them - see you do have bad taste dude!) etc being better quality. I wonder what others think about this? I mean I spose to some extent me (and my mate arguin for local shops) are also talking a lot about produce grown REALLY small scale like allotments or gardens, where shit is usually better (at least when we grow it it is!) cos people do it cos they enjoy it and spend a of of time at it so get good at it - so food is real nice! Trust me man, our carrots, courgettes and peppers taste blinding (and honestly loads better than Sainsbury or Coop where we normally shop) - weather fucked the tomatoes up though a bit this year.

But of course most local shops/markets dont do this, its still mass production stuff. So going along with this current form of local shops/markets (like I presume Jack is talking about - i.e. you mentioned Happy Shopper somewhere I think) firstly do people agree with Jack that produce is usually worse quality here than supermarkets like Tesco, and (whichever way you feel) why is this so?

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 22:13
Jack wrote:
Yes.

It's wanky middle class guilt, but if we're going to have to come up with reasons why one or the other is better, I'd prefer the one that's less exploitative.

but earlier you've said your reasons were that they were cheaper and nicer

Blacklisted
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Sep 24 2005 22:18

Yeh also Jack, I still dont get this cheaper argument?

I mean, I know loss leaders are cheaper but everything else is well pricey and overall its been shown loads of times that these places are more expensive (wish I could remember and reference these studies - but I KNOW ive seen em!) and supermarkets (cos they seem cheaper due to loss leaders so working class shop there) are ripping off the poorer in UK.

So hows it cheaper? Do you only buy milk or suminc?

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Rob Ray
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Sep 24 2005 22:18

There was a Tesco a five minute walk from the university you went to wasn't there?

(NB// Just re-read that firefox thing, you were well and truly shot down in flames by everyone from lucy82 to revol)

Blacklisted
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Sep 24 2005 22:22

hmmm, pizza - Im off to cook some of that, cya.

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 22:26
Jack wrote:
I buy milk, bread, eggs, fruit, pasta, sauces for pasta, pizza and cheese mostly.

All of which is cheaper than an equivalent at a local shop.

and that's before I factor in any special offers.

Tesco Express Village Food and Wine

Eggs half dozen .72p .69p

Cornflakes 500g £1.29p £1.25p

Sugar 1kg .71p .89p

Milk 1L .60p .60p

Milk 2L £1.07p .99p

Hovis 800g £1.07p .69p

Baked beans .29p .25p

Kitchen towels £1.02p .99p

Toilet paper £1.32p £1.39p

Cola own brand .55p .59p

milk, bread, eggs, cheaper at the local than at tesco here

redyred
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Sep 24 2005 22:38
Saii wrote:
When did I say that? I was saying Tescos are depressing the number of varieties overall by forcing growers to conform to certain key 'sellers' to get their produce into the place. The number of UK varieties has fallen. It's not rocket science to see that overall, our choices are lessened as a result. That may not apply when comparing single independent shop to single supermarket, but as you're well aware, that would be a stupid comparison to make because there are usually several different competing sources if supermarkets aren't there. .

Yes but that's what has happened - capitalism innit? Right here and now supermarkets offer more choice, whether or not their very existance has lessened choice.

blacklisted wrote:
I mean I spose to some extent me (and my mate arguin for local shops) are also talking a lot about produce grown REALLY small scale like allotments or gardens, where shit is usually better (at least when we grow it it is!) cos people do it cos they enjoy it and spend a of of time at it so get good at it - so food is real nice! Trust me man, our carrots, courgettes and peppers taste blinding (and honestly loads better than Sainsbury or Coop where we normally shop) - weather fucked the tomatoes up though a bit this year.

What relevance does this have to anything? Most of us don't have time/opportunity/inclination to grow our own. And regarding the bit in bold - unalienated labour it may be, but I don't see how that inherently makes the product better.

redyred
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Sep 24 2005 22:46
oisleep wrote:
Jack wrote:
I buy milk, bread, eggs, fruit, pasta, sauces for pasta, pizza and cheese mostly.

All of which is cheaper than an equivalent at a local shop.

and that's before I factor in any special offers.

Tesco Express Village Food and Wine

Eggs half dozen .72p .69p

Cornflakes 500g £1.29p £1.25p

Sugar 1kg .71p .89p

Milk 1L .60p .60p

Milk 2L £1.07p .99p

Hovis 800g £1.07p .69p

Baked beans .29p .25p

Kitchen towels £1.02p .99p

Toilet paper £1.32p £1.39p

Cola own brand .55p .59p

milk, bread, eggs, cheaper at the local than at tesco here

Well I hope you enjoy your 31p saving (bills tot up to £8.64 and £8.33 respectively). Remember though that the local shop will probably ONLY sell you the usual kellogs, hovis etc or maybe one other if you're lucky, whereas supermarkets will give you a better value (and often better quality) own brand.

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oisleep
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Sep 24 2005 22:53
redyred wrote:

Well I hope you enjoy your 31p saving (bills tot up to £8.64 and £8.33 respectively)

oh right, when jack was arguing that tesco's were cheaper i thought he was meaning that meant one being cheaper than an other. what is your understanding of the term cheaper?

and anyway those figures there were posted directly to counter jack's categorical assertion that nowhere is cheaper than tesco for milk, take a look at the comparisons for meat products a few pages back, to see even bigger price differences

lucy82
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Sep 24 2005 23:49

what matters isn't whats cheaper or tastes better but the fact that the monopolies of the big supermarkets are driving down the wages and working conditions of people for maximum profit on a large scale, usually in other countries where often the basics of the cheap and tasty goods are produced and sometimes attacking and potentially crippling whole economies (for example, in the carribean banana wars).

small shops don't have that power on the scale that controls world markets even if they buy from the same producers, even if they are shit to their workforce and they are also more susceptable to consumer pressure.

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cantdocartwheels
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Sep 25 2005 00:42
oisleep wrote:
Jack wrote:
I buy milk, bread, eggs, fruit, pasta, sauces for pasta, pizza and cheese mostly.

All of which is cheaper than an equivalent at a local shop.

and that's before I factor in any special offers.

Tesco Express Village Food and Wine

Cornflakes 500g 44p £1.25p

Brown sliced bread 43p.69p

Tesco Value Baked beans .11p .25p

Didn't read the whole thread and sorry to be an annoying pedant but in terms of price comparison that is more accurate. I wouldn't normally point it out except those are all high carbohydrate, easy to make bulk foods, which are all made to be a great deal cheaper than healthier foods. Hence realistically cutting down our life expectancy.

.

People shop at tesco's for convenience, tho i get what your saying about tescos not being particularly cheap, however realistically if you feed a family for a week then tescos is realistically going to be easier and unless you cook each meal from scratch (which is obviously time consuming), cheaper than a local shop, again largely due to the relative availability of frozen food and cheap bread.

However, if you want to save money you'd go to asdas or iceland the market or the knock off store not your local shop, so its a bit of a weird arguement but interesting though.

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oisleep
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Sep 25 2005 06:43
cantdocartwheels wrote:
oisleep wrote:
Jack wrote:
I buy milk, bread, eggs, fruit, pasta, sauces for pasta, pizza and cheese mostly.

All of which is cheaper than an equivalent at a local shop.

and that's before I factor in any special offers.

Tesco Express Village Food and Wine

Cornflakes 500g 44p £1.25p

Brown sliced bread 43p.69p

Tesco Value Baked beans .11p .25p

Didn't read the whole thread .........

and if you did you would have seen that i argue that supermarkets are quite a bit dearer for things like meat, fruit & veg - that was my main argument.

In addition though, and in response to jack's assertion that nowhere is cheaper than tesco's for things like milk and egss, i posted the above to show that even things that people believe supermarkets to be cheaper on, are not always the case

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Rob Ray
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Sep 25 2005 08:33

Well yeah I'd go with Lidl/Aldi tbh if it comes to shopping for absolute cheapest, cos they market for cheaper than practically anyone else. Not sure where it comes from though (seems to be German, mostly), would be interested to know. In terms of health and nutrition though, you'd do as well to chew cardboard with half of that stuff.

Basically with food it mostly comes down, as Jack says, to price (on which this whole conversation seems pretty undecided as I suspect, depending on which sponsored research you read, different pictures can be presented on each side) and personal taste (which as John pointed out is subjective).

going back to original point though, thought I'd try a quick summary:

In urban areas for the absolute poorest, a Lidl is a godsend and a Tescos a good second choice. For those slightly higher up the ladder, Tescos rules and for those with a bit more money still, the opportunity to buy higher-quality foods etc from other sources for a bit more money inevitably contributes to the classes' health divide and differing life expectancies.

Small local shops selling utility products (food, drink, cooking utensils, DIY stuff etc) are reduced largely to the status of convenience stores, wth basics available so you don't have to take a trip out of town to get one ketchup bottle, and luxury-centric 'cloned' highstreets providing direct outlets for major labels. The corner stores themselves are in the main chained in effect, and are rarely truly independent.

Without a doubt, this set-up seems to suit the general populace of urban areas. I would probably include most county towns in this category (just), as they tend to have robust economic systems and be hubs of commerce, drawing in significant spending regardless of supermarket impacts simply due to their already enlarged capacity for shopping and position as administrative centre for the county.

It is massively popular, allows for more consumption per head and crucially I think, is regular and predictable in both its products and pricing. No surprises means you can calculate the weekly shop easily, and choose depending on budget exactly where you want to go with a minimum of fuss. The bad points (several have been mentioned already, and this should probably include a far stronger and clearer segregation of wealth than was found under the old system) are clearly outweighed in the public mind by the ease with which people can fit into that system.

In rural areas the picture can be substantially different, depending on circumstance. The poorest rural folks, those without cars, the elderly etc, certainly can have their lives significantly adversley impacted by an out-of-town supermarket drawing the high-rolling middle classes and upper working classes away from town centres which swiftly fall apart.

Because of the generally precarious nature of rural town centres, large impacts such as supermarkets can and will devastate community coherence, along with all the other stuff I mentioned earlier. I'm fairly convinced having read through this conversation that supermarkets, and indeed cloned high streets, are a curse rather than a boon in many rural situations, because it means the middle/upper class effectively abandons its position helping to fund and maintain the wider community despite some minor cost benefits for (some) of the poor in the short term.

In the end it does seem to be a case by case basis. As Jack says, in Colchester, which I would class as large enough to cope with supermarket trickle, the situation is substantially different to in Sudbury or Stowmarket, where that same trickle will (has) proved the catalyst for an effective exodus of skills, youth, money, infrastructure, community.