Defending National Liberation Movements?
revol68 wrote:Quote:
But really it has to be acknowlegded I have an almost irrational hatred for southerners sticking their noses into the northern question. Especially when they are so arrogant as to dismiss the views of those libertarian communists living there and who come from both communities.Yeah this is probably the thing that most pisses me off about the organise document. After a long debate with organise or what was to become organise, I changed my views on the north dramatically. As I think did many people in the WSM. We admitted we'd got a number of things wrong and set about make a number of very large changes to our position paper. (A paper that is supposed to be a basis for theoretical unity not a perfect analysis nor a piece of propaganda). How did organise respond by saying yes well we can read into this document the old document before it was changed and more. The organise document completely fucking ignored the significance of the changes that we did make. Changes that we did make for the most part arising out of debate with organise. It is definitely not the case that we 'are so arrogant as to dismiss the views of those libertarian communists living [in the north] and who come from both communities'. But I don't want to have this same fucking on-line screaming match agian, especially when almost all of us get along very cordially when we meet face to face.
George this is just way off beam. The Organise! response was not informed by revol68s "almost irrational hatred for southerners sticking their noses into the northern question" - it actual fact revol68, while agreeing with the final response was not heavily involved in the process of drafting it. On the other hand Organise! have members in the south at least one of whom was heavily involved in writing the response. So the assumption that such a motivation or anything like it was there may actually have informed your reading rather than the other way around.
Yes, as I've said there has been a debate going on for some time now but we were actually disappointed that the document came out as it did. We said at the time we would have to look at the paper as a whole and would give an organisational response - we did that and seriously from here it looks like what we actually did 'wrong' was put it in print. But thats by the bye, we had been forwarded previously some of the proposals for amending the document that were very good but what actually got proposed, amended and put through democratically by the WSM was a far cry from reflecting some of the changes in the positions of at least some individual members of the WSM and a far cry from what we had expected. So perhaps a certain amount of disappointment spilled into our response?
But this has been explained many times before.
If Sam is still reading this what is more essential, and its a significant difference that still stands, is in regard to support for national liberation struggles (although this support usually camoflagues itself as support for anti-imperialist struggles).
As it was put in the James Connolly article in Red and Black Revolution:
...libertarian socialists should (although they often don't) defend national liberation movements.
We don't - they do.
As for the point that "nations exist" in the same article and the implication that we should just accept that I'm sorry but 'nations' or nation-states are extremely modern political constructs. Nor is it simply "national oppression" which divides the working class - this seems a strange twist to put on most libertarian communist, revolutionary syndicalist, anarcho-syndicalist and many marxist takes I've ever seen on this - in common with a more traditonal anarchist/libertarian communist view Organise! sees that nationalisms (the creation, propagaton and adherance to nationalist belief systems and support for existing or as yet unrealised nation states) divide the working class.
Organise! Aims and Principles:
"We are opposed to the ideology of nationalism and national liberation movements which claim that there is some common interest between native bosses and the working class in face of foreign domination."
Sorry Sam - I seem to have got the 'TODAY is back' thread mixed up with the 'Questions' thread.
Cheers;
I suppose the format of the response was a surprise and maybe some of us thought it an unusual priority in terms of pamphlet production but we all accept that you can print whatever you like. No issues there really.
Anyway here's the surrounding paragraphs from that article to give a bit of context to the quote from the James Connolly in Boul's post just above:
Because nationalism is the dominant ideology of capitalism and has profoundly affected every one of us who lives under capitalism, thinking about it objectively is quite a challenge.
Nationalism is the ideological justification of the nation-state. It imagines that capitalists and the working class share a common political interest; it imagines that the oppressed and their oppressors, the exploited and their exploiters share a common political interest just because they share the same nationality! It advocates the strengthening/creation of a nation-state to protect this common interest. It seems strange that Connolly, as a socialist, would identify himself with this ideology.
I believe Connolly's mistake was that he never made the distinction between national liberation and nationalism. Libertarian socialists are, in all circumstances, opposed to oppression. Libertarian socialists, therefore, defend all liberation movements, whatever their form. As such, libertarian socialists should (although they often don't) defend national liberation movements. Where people are being oppressed due to their nationality, all socialists and all progressive people in the world should defend their right to fight this oppression. But does not mean we seem them as a solution. Although racial liberation movements are rarely racist and sexual liberation movements are rarely sexist, unfortunately, most national liberation movements are nationalist, and as they campaign against oppression of one kind they advocate that of another, namely the oppression of the nation-state. Libertarian socialists must be at all times conscious of this complexity, Connolly unfortunately wasn't.
Full article at http://www.struggle.ws/wsm/rbr/rbr8/connolly.html
please don't offer cut n paste jobs from woeful articles.
supporting national liberation but not supporting nationalism??
As if they can be separated!
Truly youse are the leadership of ideas!
supporting national liberation but not supporting nationalism??As if they can be separated!
Truly youse are the leadership of ideas!
That's not what it says. It says defend national liberation struggles. The organisation does not support national liberation struggles (which are defined in opposition to imperialism), and certainly doesn't have any time for nationalism. Personally I don't like the term 'national liberation' at all and I wouldn't have used the term in an article (as there is nothing liberating about a nation). However, there are various shades of opinion in the WSM and I don't think the terminology is that important as the underlying agreement within the organisation is close enough to my position to keep me happy enough.
To explain what I think the organisation's position is I'll use an example. Let's say some god-awful patch of bog down the country decided that they wanted to secede and form an Irish language speaking nation. Now I think that this is the stupidest thing imaginable and I wouldn't hesitate to say so. I consider Irish to be a dead language and have no interest in reviving it and I think that national self-determination is a pointless goal which is just as likely to leave the working class in a worse position as a better one. But as long as the population of that area want to do so, I think they have every right to do so. If the Dublin government decided that it wasn't going to let them, or decided that they weren't going to be allowed to speak whatever stupid language that they wanted to, I would defend them against this "imperialism" and I would consider that my priority. I believe that this is essentially the policy of the WSM. Conflating it with nationalism - or even any type of support for national liberation - is just wrong.
Yeah Jimmy substantial quotes from the article have been posted elsewhere on libcom as have links to the whole article, posting it again in no way lessens or invalidates the criticism of a position that calls on libertarian socialists to defend national liberation movements. A lot more padding and nonsense talked about 'complexity' when the real complexities of the situation in the north are ignored (among these complexities the fact that the majority of the population never wanted to be 'nationally' liberated in the first place).
As for gurrier:
That's not what it says. It says defend national liberation struggles. The organisation does not support national liberation struggles (which are defined in opposition to imperialism), and certainly doesn't have any time for nationalism. Personally I don't like the term 'national liberation' at all and I wouldn't have used the term in an article (as there is nothing liberating about a nation). However, there are various shades of opinion in the WSM and I don't think the terminology is that important as the underlying agreement within the organisation is close enough to my position to keep me happy enough.To explain what I think the organisation's position is I'll use an example. Let's say some god-awful patch of bog down the country decided that they wanted to secede and form an Irish language speaking nation. Now I think that this is the stupidest thing imaginable and I wouldn't hesitate to say so. I consider Irish to be a dead language and have no interest in reviving it and I think that national self-determination is a pointless goal which is just as likely to leave the working class in a worse position as a better one. But as long as the population of that area want to do so, I think they have every right to do so. If the Dublin government decided that it wasn't going to let them, or decided that they weren't going to be allowed to speak whatever stupid language that they wanted to, I would defend them against this "imperialism" and I would consider that my priority. I believe that this is essentially the policy of the WSM. Conflating it with nationalism - or even any type of support for national liberation - is just wrong.
Okay so the wsm reckon as libertarian communists we must defend (not support though) national liberation struggles - we don't. As I've said it is not simply national oppression that divides workers - nationalism divides workers. I've had too many years bitter experience of this in the north to have the defence of one national 'liberation' movement in opposition to another nationalism cut much ice with me.
But lets be clear this has never meant Organise! ignored the abuses of the British state, or the local Stormont regime (of exclusively Unionist or the more recent power sharing example), it simply means we didn't defend the actions or politics (both extremely damaging to the working class and any prospects of improving the condition of our class) of the local national liberation movement.
You are of course right that there is nothing liberating about a nation but your assertion that there is more than one view in the wsm doesn't carry much weight here either. Y'know platformism, theoretical and tactical unity and the leadership of ideas, remember them - this is something that is certainly a wsm 'position', and the article is one that appeared in your theoretical journal 'Red & Black revolution' which apparently has an editorial process lasting several months. But if your happy enough fair play but this is still a pretty significant difference between our respective organisations.
Your example is just fuckin woeful. But I'll indulge it for a moment. Right so a sort of gaeltacht (sp - christ if the kids hadn't been at school they coulda spelt it for me) nationalism develops somewhere in the west of Ireland. For this to be a movement with any credibility (and I use the term extremely losely here) significant amounts of working class people are convinced that this will somehow be of benefit to them as opposed to them working with other working class people in pursuit of their common interests as workers - now thats pretty much a negative impact to start off with. Also the rise in nationalist sentiment is likely gonna be based on opposition to the west brit overly anglicised east of Ireland, thus fostering more bigotry and division expressed in terms of national identity and ignoring the problems of state and capital. Now extremely simplistically you put forward a senario where 'Dublin' does not permit 'self determination' and therefore becomes 'imperialist'. This ignores the fact that in any region of the Republic of Ireland such a development would undoubtedly also go hand in hand with the development of opposition to this drive for self determination - Irish nationalism (not just the Dublin government) would find itself in conflict with a movement that threatened the integrity of the nation (fuck its already bad enough them having been denied their fourth green field!). The population of the area will not be unanimous in their support for 'national' liberation and therefore conflict could develop, largely fought out by and between working class people, where there was none previously - is that to be 'defended'?
I mean how the fuck would everyone react if Organise! came out in support of the Ulster Independence Movement or one based on a smaller geographic region demanding independence on the basis of them speaking an ulster-scots dialect. I expect we'd be roundly condemed not least by the wsm. And i don't reckon it would be for failing to defend this national liberation struggle against imperialism when the government decides its not gonna let them secede.
Conflating it with nationalism - or even any type of support for national liberation - is just wrong.
Again Organise! have never called the WSM nationalist but I at least am having a problem here with comprehending this nonsense - its not 'support for national liberation' just 'defence of national liberation'. Still sounds like apologetics to me.
Again Organise! have never called the WSM nationalist but I at least am having a problem here with comprehending this nonsense - its not 'support for national liberation' just 'defence of national liberation'. Still sounds like apologetics to me.
If you want to hear 'apologetics' you probably will. I don't think I've ever written a word in my life that apologised for nationalism or anything like it.
When it comes down to it, I suppose, my position can be most simply put by saying that I'm against powerful nations sending their tanks in to crush weaker nations in order to exploit them.
I don't think it's an especially controversial position for an anarchist to take.
When it comes down to it, I suppose, my position can be most simply put by saying that I'm against powerful nations sending their tanks in to crush weaker nations in order to exploit them.
and this is what happened in the North?
When it comes down to it, I suppose, my position can be most simply put by saying that I'm against powerful nations sending their tanks in to crush weaker nations in order to exploit them.I don't think it's an especially controversial position for an anarchist to take.
And this is something that Organise! wouldn't do because they don't defend national liberation movements? I don't see that this follows. I won't get into the problems with defining nations here again.
I'd rather channel what little support I could towards working class resistance and any libertarian communist currents in that area than offer support or defense to a nationalist movement.
No war but the class war. (maybe a bit of a cliche round here but I like it).
And this is something that Organise! wouldn't do because they don't defend national liberation movements? I don't see that this follows. I won't get into the problems with defining nations here again.
Of course I'm not saying that organise wouldn't do that. I try to be as precise as possible in my phrasing, so it's safe to assume I didn't imply something unless I said it. My description of my position was not meant to imply anything about Organise!'s position.
As I said, I think it's a fairly basic anti-imperialist position and although I wouldn't use the phrase "defend national liberation movements" to describe it, I think that phrase is essentially saying the same thing.
I'd rather channel what little support I could towards working class resistance and any libertarian communist currents in that area than offer support or defense to a nationalist movement.
Nobody has mentioned 'support' and as I understand it, the WSM's 'defence' means something entirely different.
For example, it means that we do not identify the activities of insurgents as the main reason for bloodshed in Iraq at the moment. It means that we do not think it is necessarily a criminal act to take up arms against the occupation. It does not mean that we support any of the insurgent groups in any way and most of their politics are, of course, repugnant to us and we do, of course, do whatever we can to support the working class resistance (you will remember us paying to fly over a member of the Workers Communist Party specifically for this reason). But when push comes to shove, we think that it is worth putting effort into opposing the US military invasion regardless of the character of the insurgency for a number of reasons. Most importantly because the use of military force by states in the wealthier parts of the world against the populations of the poorer parts of the world in order to exploit their resources is a bad thing and is something worth opposing, especially since it is one of the persistent patterns that has been repeated over several hundred years and is at the root of many of the relations that bind our appallingly unjust world order together.
No war but the class war. (maybe a bit of a cliche round here but I like it).
I like it too, but I always understood it to include anti-imperialism too. Maybe I'm wrong. However, I just don't think that a political line in Iraq today, for example, that started with "forget about the americans..." would be very useful or realistic.
Perhaps it'd be better to say you supported "working class struggles against against racism, genocide, ethnocide and political and economic colonialism" (course thats from the Organise! aims and principles so I would suggest that) rather than say you defend national liberation movements? I mean that statement basically says that you defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself. Of course there is a context but here I reckon that a blanket approach to a policy on this is pretty unsatisfactory.
Again this doesn't, in the case of Iraq for example, mean that Organise! are not opposed to blantant acts of imperialist aggression carried out by the US & Britain etc. But while understanding that the occupation has produced the resistance we do not offer blanket support or defence to that resistance. Any one wanting a bit more information can check out the article LIberating Iraq and Other Lies in WCR10 (pm me for details of getting a copy) or a talk delievered by a member of Organise! several months back that is online at http://flag.blackened.net/infohub/organise/content.php?article.616
Yeah, it was good that the WSM brought a member of the Workers Communist Party to Dublin to speak, Organise! are also opposed to US military intervention in Iraq and I don't think we'd issue anything about Iraq that started with "forget about the americans..." The inclusion of 'anti-imperialism' as part of an analysis of whats going on in Iraq is however pretty straightforward but in a lot of other situations anti-imperialism seems to provide a cover for one party in a conflict. I think its a particularly misleading and damaging concept to apply to the situation in Northern Ireland.
But that brings us back to the issues under discussion in the thread started by JoeBlack that should probably be revisited - let me know when he's available to continue the debate. In the meantime wish him all the best.
Cheers;
Perhaps it'd be better to say you supported "working class struggles against against racism, genocide, ethnocide and political and economic colonialism" (course thats from the Organise! aims and principles so I would suggest that) rather than say you defend national liberation movements? I mean that statement basically says that you defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself. Of course there is a context but here I reckon that a blanket approach to a policy on this is pretty unsatisfactory.
I don't know how many times this has been covered but the WSM won't 'defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself.' I'd imagine you'd accept this.
So when the WSM or a WSM member says 'defend national liberation movements' they are not saying 'defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself.' ~urely, you must accept this? To do otherwise would be contradictory.
Maybe you, like gurrier, think that 'national liberation' is the wrong term to use. Fine but if a debate between comrades is to be in anyway productive you must at least try understand where WSMers are coming from and what they are trying to say. Just because you understand 'national liberation' to mean the same thing as nationalism it doesn't imply that WSMers who use the phrase 'national liberation' must understand it in the same way. 'defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself.' Please don't presume that it does.
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Perhaps it'd be better to say you supported "working class struggles against against racism, genocide, ethnocide and political and economic colonialism" (course thats from the Organise! aims and principles so I would suggest that) rather than say you defend national liberation movements? I mean that statement basically says that you defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself. Of course there is a context but here I reckon that a blanket approach to a policy on this is pretty unsatisfactory.I don't know how many times this has been covered but the WSM won't 'defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself.' I'd imagine you'd accept this.
So when the WSM or a WSM member says 'defend national liberation movements' they are not saying 'defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself.' ~urely, you must accept this? To do otherwise would be contradictory.
Maybe you, like gurrier, think that 'national liberation' is the wrong term to use. Fine but if a debate between comrades is to be in anyway productive you must at least try understand where WSMers are coming from and what they are trying to say. Just because you understand 'national liberation' to mean the same thing as nationalism it doesn't imply that WSMers who use the phrase 'national liberation' must understand it in the same way. 'defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself.' Please don't presume that it does.
I am not saying the WSM have a position of supporting, or even just defending, the seizure of state power by other political organisations - whether socialist or nationalist. What we are talking about is pretty much summed up in this:
As such, libertarian socialists should (although they often don't) defend national liberation movements.
Right, so what is this about? It seems, from posts from yourself and gurrier, that its about the use of language that does not reflect what you are claiming is your actual position.
That is coming from an acknowledgement that national liberation movements are actively seeking to wrest control of, or form their own, state. You assert that libertarian socialists "should (though often they don't) defend national liberation movements", so you create the contradiction between that and the assertion (that I believe btw) that the "WSM won't 'defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself.'"
Put another way if its acknowledged that 'national liberation movements' seek control of the state or a new smaller one (which they do) then yes defending 'national liberation movements' is defending "a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself" - thats what these movements aim at.
Cheers;
That is coming from an acknowledgement that national liberation movements are actively seeking to wrest control of, or form their own, state.
I didn't nor would I 'acknowledge' this.
Put another way if its acknowledged that 'national liberation movements' seek control of the state or a new smaller one (which they do) then yes defending 'national liberation movements' is defending "a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself" - thats what these movements aim at.
But this is the point. We don't believe that 'defending 'national liberation movements' is defending "a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself"' because we don't believe that 'thats what these movements aim at'. And until you accept that it is possible that your understanding of what the term 'national liberation' means is not the only possible one any discussion about 'Defending National Liberation Movements' is not going to get anywhere. If you endlessly insist that 'national liberation' = nationalism is a tautology then any possibility of debate based on a common understanding is excluded.
I'm not asking you to agree that our use of the term 'national liberation movement' is correct or valid. I just asking you to accept that it is possible that we are using the term 'national liberation movement' in a different way to the way in which you use it.
well if your use of it in terms of the north is any sort of precedent then yes, it is a defence of nationalism.
The idea that national liberation movements aren't about grabbing or constructng nation states is absolute nonsense and stretchs it beyond all usefulness.
For example a defense of people struggling against discrimination, racism or other forms of violence can be done with out labelling it national liberation. The NICRA was an example of such a movement, the problem arises when the discrimination that was endemic in the North from partition is swallowed by a grand narrative of national liberation which holds that such discrimination can never be dealt with without the construction of United Ireland, allbeit one sugar coated as a workers republic. Surely any good communist knows that libertarian communism is not weaved uon the very fabric of nationalist polities but would inevitably exceed such confines.
"Our goal is an Ireland which is socialist, where the freedom of the individual is resepcted and where the working class hold direct and complete control throught their own councils. Our goal is a united Workers Republic" - WSM "Ireland and British Imperialism"
When I read such statements I have to laugh at not just the niavity of it, nor it's strange use of the term Workers Republic, that seems aimed at recruiting left republicans than based on historical analysis, what I find most comic is the quaint idea that anarchism can exist in one country. Surely one would find it strange if Organise had a position of "our goal is a united British Isles", surely our goal is a united humanity that federates in all directions?
the discussion of a united Ireland therefore is much more to do with nationalist teleology than any sort of thought out internationalist position.
Boulcolonialboy wrote an excellent piece on republican historiography
1916 - 1922: IRELANDS "UNFINISHED" REVOLUTION?
The Easter Rising and the republic it declared were militarily defeated by the British authorities in 1916. This defeat was followed in the 1918 election, by the electoral rise of Sinn Fein, an election which saw the first woman MP (Countess Markievicz) returned to Westminster. General strikes took place against conscription in 1918, to demand the release of hunger strikers in 1920 and in opposition to militarism in 1921. Workers ‘Soviets’ were declared in parts of Ireland, the ‘war of independence’ was fought and the Irish Free State formed in 1922. While these events were largely confined to the south and west of Ireland the north-east also saw the outbreak of sectarian conflict and the creation in 1920-21 of the Northern Ireland state. Undoubtedly a period of flux, of struggle, increased radicalism and competing interests, opinions as to whether or not a revolution occurred, and how this revolution is defined, are largely connected with the political outlook of particular historians and more generally with political ‘traditions’ or ‘communities’ in Ireland.
Peter Hart, in his contribution to ‘The Irish Revolution, 1913-1923’1, points out the problems of definition and dating of the period:
What do we call the events of 1916 – 1923? Or should it be 1912-22 or 1917-21? 2
While others have failed to define revolution or avoided the use of the term in favour of such descriptions as ‘war of independence’, ‘struggle for independence’, or ‘rebellion’3 J. M. Regan begins his study of the Irish counter-revolution with the following definition of revolution:
revolution a forcible overthrow of government or a social order, in favour of a new system.4
This definition includes, as does David Fitzpatrick in ‘The two Irelands 1912-1939’, the creation of the state of Northern Ireland in 1920-21 as a second or dual Irish revolution. The success of Ulster Unionist resistance to Home Rule, against the creation of a unitary Irish state, and the establishment of the north-eastern Home Rule state of Northern Ireland is usually portrayed as a counter-revolution. It is a counter-revolution which is, curiously although not uniquely, placed chronologically prior to the revolution itself (the Spanish revolution and civil war was preceded by the Francoist rebellion of July 1936), beginning as it does in the 1912 Unionist mobilisation against the prospect of Home Rule.
The determined opposition to the third Home Rule Bill by Ulster Unionism involved massive mobilisation, opposition to the British government of the day, the laying of plans for a provisional government to keep Ulster or a portion of it outside of any Dublin administered Home Rule Ireland, and the formation of an armed militia, the Ulster Volunteer Force in January 1913. Fitzpatrick asserts that Ireland “experienced revolution in several senses”5 from, as he dates it, 1912 to 1922. For Fitzpatrick:
The means by which the two revolutionary elites secured local power ranged from violence and the threat of violence to collective protest, propaganda, parliamentary and diplomatic struggle, and negotiation. The Ulster Unionists relied primarily on parliamentary agitation backed by the menace of armed resistance; the republicans shunned parliament but used propaganda even more effectively than armed force. Thus the creation of the two Irish states, though not achieved by purely revolutionary methods, entailed a revolutionary shift in power-holding.6
Revolutionary methods, and in large part their identification of the Irish revolution/revolutions, used by both Regan and Fitzpatrick rely on a definition of revolution in which the use or threat of violence is paramount. Further Fitzpatrick asserts that:
The alterations in Irish political organisation were sufficiently lasting and profound to merit the term ‘revolution’.7
This is based on the transformation of Ireland’s constitutional status, the extension of the political influence of the churches and the securing of power by two local ‘revolutionary elites’.8
Consensus on the process that led to the formation of Northern Ireland as one of revolution is remote, particularly as Unionism, in stressing that it has and continues to act in defence of the Union against republican and Irish national revolution, casts itself in a conservative role. This may not sit comfortably with historic events or the ongoing propensity of Unionists and Loyalists to clash with the government of the United Kingdom and yet if this was not a revolution then the definition used to portray the formation of the Irish Free State as a revolution is itself undermined.
1916 is remembered in the history and commemoration of the dual blood sacrifices of Ulster Unionism and Irish ‘revolutionary’ nationalism. One lays claim to an assertion of Britishness in the sacrifice of the 36th Ulster Division at the Battle of the Somme and the other to the redemption in blood of the Irish nation. In rhetoric indistinguishable from that of Irish nationalist revolutionary Patrick Pearse, James Connolly was to write in ‘The Workers’ Republic’, less than three months before the Rising:
But deep in the heart of Ireland has sunk the sense of the degradation wrought upon its people – our lost brothers and sisters – so deep and humiliating that no agency less potent than the red tide of war on Irish soil will ever be able to enable the Irish race to recover its self-respect, or establish its national dignity in the face of a world horrified and scandalised by what must seem our national apostasy.
Without the slightest trace of irreverence but in all due humility and awe we recognise that of us as of mankind before Calvary it may truly be said:
Without the Shedding of Blood there is no Redemption.9
While labour, or a section of the labour movement, became identified with the cause of Irish nationalism, with Connolly and the Irish Citizen Army’s role in the Rising the relationship between Sinn Fein and the southern Irish labour movement was a one-way process not a partnership. Michael Laffan, while not questioning the occurrence of a revolution, points out that events:
…did not change the relationship between one class of Irishmen and another. Its impact was nationalist and political, not social and economic.10
The central issue for Sinn Fein and the IRA was the maintenance of nationalist unity. While some seemed to believe that all Ireland’s problems would disappear with independence Sinn Fein’s economic policies were based on a nationalist vision of self reliant capitalism. As labour took the decision to stand aside in the 1918 and 1921 general elections to allow Sinn Fein a clear run:
Sinn Fein accepted labour’s support as its due and offered nothing but platitudes in return.11
The ‘Soviets’ declared in parts of Ireland were not attempts at socialist revolution or workers control but pay disputes backed by occupation rather than strike action, all were handed back to their owners on conclusion of the disputes. Likewise the three ‘national’ strikes that occurred were in support of Irish nationalism more than in pursuit of working class demands and as such they could not extend to the north-east:
Despite the waving of red flags and indulgence in wild rhetoric there was little sign of revolutionary views, let alone Bolshevism, in the Irish labour movement.12
Women were to become more politically active and enter the political arena as never before. While images of Countess Markievicz in Citizen Army uniform, revolver in hand, is among the most powerful images of the period, signifying a dramatically changed role for women in political struggle, the role of women in the Rising, during the war of independence and with the outcome of the revolution was contradictory and to prove transient. Despite the growing role of women organisations like Cumann na mBan were to have a supportive role in relation to male political and military activity. Moreover the revolution and civil war was followed by a concerted effort by successive Free State governments to push women out of politics:
Those in the male leadership who had proven unwilling to allow equal participation during the War of Independence were, once in government, vociferous advocates, of measures designed to return women to the private sphere.13
By 1932 and with De Valera in power the position of women was further undermined while his 1937 constitution “defined women’s contribution to the state solely in terms of hearth and home”14. Margaret Ward concludes that:
Despite the valiant efforts of women to claim agency for themselves, the public world and mainstream nationalism were as heavily gendered as they had been prior to the First World War.15
Irish republicans aimed at far reaching change in the development of Irish culture. Building on the Gaelic cultural revival of the nineteenth century, republicans did aim at fundamental change in the lives of Ireland’s inhabitants:
their vision was linguistic and cultural rather than social and economic: citizens of the new Ireland would speak Irish not English.16
Irish nationhood was powerfully reinforced in the use of Irish titles and names in all areas of government and the state, even in those cases where the previous British system or department had been taken over largely unchanged, Irish ownership was stamped on it symbolically. As late as 1938 the mission to create an Irish Ireland was given precedence over ending partition by De Valera, speaking in Cork, following the transfer of the treaty ports from Britain to Ireland, on 11th July of that year he told a ‘victory ceilidhe’ that:
without the restoration of the Irish language, ‘what has happened today at Spike Island and Cobh will be very incomplete indeed, even if it is followed by our getting back in a very short time the whole of this country for the Irish people’.17
The process that led to the formation of the Irish Free State in 1922, from the Easter Rising and the events which followed, can, in terms of the Irish polity attained, be said to have been a revolution. However this view of revolution is not unproblematic even by the standards of revolutionary nationalism itself.
The development of Sinn Fein ideology, based on the notion of inalienable national territory, rose in opposition to the growing likelihood of the Irish Parliamentary Party’s acceptance of a partitionist settlement. In this respect the ‘revolution’ was to do no better than constitutional nationalism.
The Anglo-Irish Treaty of December 1921 treaty fell short of the aspirations of a sovereign Irish republic with its national territory intact. For Sinn Fein the use of armed violence provided leverage in support of the electoral mandate gained in 1917 and 1918. Unlike the Irish Parliamentary Party, Sinn Fein could not influence the British government in the halls of Westminster due to its abstentionist policy. In the absence of such political wrangling something else was needed to bring the British government to the negotiating table with Sinn Fein. The use of armed struggle as the leverage which brought the British government to the negotiating table did not secure the republic or even the compromise of external association forwarded by De Valera. The fact that the IRA could not hope to militarily defeat the British government effectively undermined the position of the Dail’s negotiators.
The construction of an Irish nationalist historiography as one long process of opposition to foreign domination culminating in the establishment of the Free State became the point of reference for anti-treaty republicans and later northern nationalists who found themselves contained within the territory of the Northern Irish state. A history of unfinished revolution developed; in Northern Ireland from 1969 onwards republicans were to reassert that any progress first required the ending of British rule in Ireland and completion of the ‘historically justified’ mission of Irish nationalism. Here again the message is, by varying degrees, that labour must wait. Mirroring the sentiment that ‘labour must wait’ Progressive Unionist Party spokespeople such as Billy Hutchinson have also claimed that ‘normal’ left-right politics can only follow resolution of the constitutional question. Of course in this instance the mirror image is the prerequisite securing of Northern Irelands constitutional attachment to the United Kingdom. The attitude of Irish nationalism to the unionist, or self-identifying British population, is to demand coercion from Westminster and involves a rather naïve belief that on ‘British’ withdrawal that they will realise their ‘Irishness’.
The definition of revolution proffered by Regan and applied by Fitzpartrick is devoid of reference to social and economic transformation in Irish society, a serious omission in any definition of the term. If it is enough to claim that the change of those holding power, accompanied by force or the threat of force, defines revolution, then Ireland had a revolution, perhaps even two revolutions, between 1916 and 1922. If however our definition of revolution demands a more radical departure, wide ranging changes in social and economic relations, a transformation in the everyday lives of working class people, then, despite the mythology and tradition of contemporary and modern Irish nationalists, republicans and socialist republicans, and the uniting of more radical elements behind the goal of Irish national sovereignty, Ireland did not have a revolution at all.
REFERENCES
1. P. Hart in J. Augusteijin (ed), pp. 17 – 33.
2. P. Hart in J. Augusteijin (ed), p. 17.
3. C. Townshend in J. Augusteijin (ed), pp. 1 – 16.
4. J. Regan p. xii.
5. D. Fitzpatrick p. 4.
6. D. Fitzpatrick p. 4.
7. D. Fitzpatrick p. 4.
8. D. Fitzpatrick p. 3.
9. J. Connolly in Aindrias O Cathasaigh (ed), p.197.
10. M. Laffan in P. J. Corish (ed), p. 203.
11. M. Laffan in P. J. Corish (ed), p. 212.
12. M. Laffan in P. J. Corish (ed), p. 202.
13. M. Ward in J. Augusteijin (ed), p. 182.
14. M. Ward in J. Augusteijin (ed), p. 183.
15. M. Ward in J. Augusteijin (ed), p. 183.
16. M. Laffan in P. J. Corish (ed), p. 203.
17. R. Fisk p.12.
Bibliography
D. Fitzpatrick, The two Irelands 1912-1939 (Oxford, 1998).
P. Hart, ‘Definition: Defining the Irish revolution’, in J. Augusteijin (ed), The Irish revolution 1913-1923 (Hampshire & New York, 2002)
M. Laffan, ‘Labour must wait’, in P. J. Corish (ed), Radicals, Rebels and establishments (1985), pp. 203-222.
A. O Cathasaigh, James Connolly the lost writings (London, 1997)
J. M. Regan, The Irish counter-revolution 1921-1936 (Dublin, 2001).
C. Townshend, ‘Historiography: Telling the Irish Revolution’, in J. Augusteijin (ed), The Irish revolution 1913-1923 (Hampshire & New York, 2002).
M. Ward, ‘Gender: gendering the Irish revolution’, in J. Augusteijin (ed), The Irish revolution 1913-1923 (Hampshire & New York, 2002).
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
That is coming from an acknowledgement that national liberation movements are actively seeking to wrest control of, or form their own, state.I didn't nor would I 'acknowledge' this.
I didn't say you did, Organise! do however. Could you name one national liberation movement that does not seek to create and control a state? If you fail to acknowledge the simple truth then there really isn’t much point pursuing this.
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Put another way if its acknowledged that 'national liberation movements' seek control of the state or a new smaller one (which they do) then yes defending 'national liberation movements' is defending "a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself" - thats what these movements aim at.But this is the point. We don't believe that 'defending 'national liberation movements' is defending "a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself"' because we don't believe that 'thats what these movements aim at'. And until you accept that it is possible that your understanding of what the term 'national liberation' means is not the only possible one any discussion about 'Defending National Liberation Movements' is not going to get anywhere. If you endlessly insist that 'national liberation' = nationalism is a tautology then any possibility of debate based on a common understanding is excluded.
How can we have debate based on common understanding when you say the WSM don't have a common understanding of the term? Nor did I even say national liberation = nationalism (even though the belief in the nation necessary to facilitate its liberation is nationalist). However national liberation movements are, undeniably, nationalist. But, tsk, tsk, perhaps my understanding of the aims of national liberation movements has been tainted by reality. I really must sort that out and substitute reality for the superior ideas of georgestapleton.
I'm not asking you to agree that our use of the term 'national liberation movement' is correct or valid.
Good, because I don’t.
I just asking you to accept that it is possible that we are using the term 'national liberation movement' in a different way to the way in which you use it.
Yes I’ll accept that yer wrong about this, no problem.
Cheers;
...If you fail to acknowledge the simple truth then there really isn’t much point pursuing this.......I really must sort that out and substitute reality for the superior ideas of georgestapleton....
...Yes I’ll accept that yer wrong about this, no problem....
...And this is why I normally avoid the north debate.
Jesus boul, the very least you could do is try to be civil.
well do you fancy answering my points then?
You've stretched the term national liberation to mean any sort of resistance to the state, this is ridiculous.
It's a piss poor attempt to justify a position I think atleast some people in the WSM know to be inconsistent. It seems like youse are stuck in a middle house of compromise, something reflected in your very elastic take on definitions.
Once again I can only laugh at the pretentsions of being the leadership of ideas. If youse seek to be the leadership of ideas I think it would help to have some, rather than rehash left republicanism with an anti state bent.
Of course I realise that youse are an organisation and as such have differences in opinion but surely youse should be able to personally state where youse disagree with the actual position instead of pulling it in every direction to make it fit.
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
...If you fail to acknowledge the simple truth then there really isn’t much point pursuing this.......I really must sort that out and substitute reality for the superior ideas of georgestapleton....
...Yes I’ll accept that yer wrong about this, no problem....
...And this is why I normally avoid the north debate.
Jesus boul, the very least you could do is try to be civil.
aw c'mon if that (particularly in the context of the post it was contained in) was so uncivil as to end debate then you were the first off the uncivil blocks with:
until you accept that it is possible that your understanding of what the term 'national liberation' means is not the only possible one any discussion about 'Defending National Liberation Movements' is not going to get anywhere. If you endlessly insist that 'national liberation'* = nationalism is a tautology then any possibility of debate based on a common understanding is excluded.
Or are you just stumped and incapable of thinking of anything sensible to say in response. To assist heres the civil version of that post:
Quote:
georgestapleton wrote:Quote:
Boulcolonialboy wrote:That is coming from an acknowledgement that national liberation movements are actively seeking to wrest control of, or form their own, state.
I didn't nor would I 'acknowledge' this.
I didn't say you did, Organise! do however. Could you name one national liberation movement that does not seek to create and control a state?
Quote:
georgestapleton wrote:Quote:
Boulcolonialboy wrote:Put another way if its acknowledged that 'national liberation movements' seek control of the state or a new smaller one (which they do) then yes defending 'national liberation movements' is defending "a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself" - thats what these movements aim at.
But this is the point. We don't believe that 'defending 'national liberation movements' is defending "a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself"' because we don't believe that 'thats what these movements aim at'. And until you accept that it is possible that your understanding of what the term 'national liberation' means is not the only possible one any discussion about 'Defending National Liberation Movements' is not going to get anywhere. If you endlessly insist that 'national liberation' = nationalism is a tautology then any possibility of debate based on a common understanding is excluded.
How can we have debate based on common understanding when you say the WSM don't have a common understanding of the term? Nor did I even say national liberation = nationalism (even though the belief in the nation necessary to facilitate its liberation is nationalist). However national liberation movements are, undeniably, nationalist.
Quote:
georgestapleton wrote:I'm not asking you to agree that our use of the term 'national liberation movement' is correct or valid.
I don’t.
Quote:
georgestapleton wrote:I just asking you to accept that it is possible that we are using the term 'national liberation movement' in a different way to the way in which you use it.
Hence my earlier suggestion. But really your definition does not square with reality (thats as 'civil' as I could make that).
Cheers;
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*by the by - i think i've actually been consistent in referring to national liberation movements, even underlined it for you once but it still went over yer head - although in the post that provked my uncivil outburst (dash and dang
) you for some reason reckoned that 'Defending National Liberation Movements' deserved capital letters.
And looking at this again: "We don't believe that 'defending 'national liberation movements' is defending "a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself"' because we don't believe that 'thats what these movements aim at'." Sorry but thats either extremely naive or just deluded - or would you rather believe the sometimes radical jargon employed by national liberation movements and continually have radical and progressive working class tendencies co-opted and then negated by nationalisms?
All the best;
(see ya at bookfair?)
In my posts on this thread I have only made one political point and that is...
the WSM won't 'defend a movement that aims to seize control of the state for itself.'
And that point is one that surely nobody (with the exception of revol) could deny.
I think that a lot of this argument comes down to language and not politics. If 'national liberation movements' is a term that exclusively describes nationalist movements then everyone in the WSM oposses them. However not everyone in the WSM thinks that 'national liberation movements' is such a term but that the term has a different meaning. This is a difference of terminology, of language and not of politics.
The only point that I have made on this thread aside from stating that the WSM isn't nationalist has been to argue that for a debate on the north to be constructive we should, to begin with at least, allow for terminological differences.
I didn't think that this would be a contensious point.
Perhaps these differences could be ironed out through debate and discussion. But assertions that one side's beliefs are 'the simple truth' and unless this is acknowledged 'then there really isn’t much point pursuing this.' Or arguments along the line of...
However national liberation movements are, undeniably, nationalist. But, tsk, tsk, perhaps my understanding of the aims of national liberation movements has been tainted by reality. I really must sort that out and substitute reality for the superior ideas of georgestapleton.
Or when a request for accepting the possibilty of terminological difference is meet with "Yes I’ll accept that yer wrong about this, no problem." Well, to be frank, then yes this thread on the north will be just the same as every other one and will lead us down into a cul-de-sac succeding only in creating animosity and bitterness.
And honestly I don't want to go down that road, again. I'd much sooner not have a pointless debate but instead maintain comradely relationships on which a revolutionary movement can be built. So, I'm finished with this thread.
However, if at some point people want to look at our agreements and our differences on the north honestly and openly then I'll be more than happy to oblige. I think both sides would be pleasantly surprised that we are making a mountain out of a molehile.
Wanna respond to my points then, instead of getting insulted by bouls basic defence of the english language.
I noticed a pattern of attacking anyone who supports anti-imperialism in principle. What of those who oppose anti-imperialism; how do you defend your support (by default) for colonialism?
I share the position of Connolly, that NL is necessary, but in of itself not complete freedom and indeed is part of the class struggle or worthless.
well when people can define imperialism properly in the context of northern ireland perhaps, but at the moment we see no reason to support a bunch of gobshites dressing up nationalist historography in "anti imperialist" pseudo socialist rhetoric.
Why is it so important to get rid of the British states presence in the north? I mean I have my reason, libertarian communist ones, but why do you think Ireland must be united before any real socialist movement can develop? I mean surely one could just as well desire for a united british isles or europe?
As for Connolly an overrated marxist, second rate nationalist and appalling military strategist.
As for Connolly an overrated marxist, second rate nationalist and appalling military strategist.
Well you seem to know everything, but I was under the impression that for an 'overrated marxist' Connolly did well against Walken and the old fool DeLeon (Connolly's stance against DeLeon's corruption of marxist theory was later vindicated by the IWW who expelled DeLeon). Not bad, since Connolly, a self-educated labourer, was facing university-educated middle class philosophers.
Connolly on military strategy. Truly appalling.
Knowone is supporting colonialism, mere pointing out that as anarchists and libertarian communists why should we jump on the bandwagon and support national liberation struggles thats whos aim and ideology we oppose. As internationalists, further lines on a map only further dent our struggle for a classless and stateless society.
Anarchists have been quite consistent in ou involvment and support for struggle against state oppression and sometimes genocide.
Anarchists were involved in the early civil rights movement and peoples democracy against state discrimation.
When has the success of a national liberation movement ever benefited the working class?
Nationalists are in dream land if they ever think peace and unity will be acheived if the British gOVERNMENT withdraws from Ireland!



No Problem.
Its an interesting discussion, i've learnt a lot...