Fundraiser
Feb 19 2006 23:12
Spanish civil war memorial - fundraiser
This is on Tuesday 21st Feb in The Spaniard, Skipper St, Belfast, 8p, SHARP.
Teams cost £25 for 4 members - this is after all a fundraiser.
More details of other events to follow - 8th March Int Womens Day, etc.
Feb 19 2006 23:15
#2
although its a fundraiser its too expensive
Feb 19 2006 23:16
#3
Bobby wrote:
although its a fundraiser its too expensive
not like a roman catholic to be whinging 
Feb 19 2006 23:16
#4
there has to be a CNT flying column there
Feb 19 2006 23:39
#5
is the fundraiser for a memorial in Belfast? Who's organising it etc...
Feb 20 2006 16:00
#6
International Brigades Commemoration Committee Belfast
Feb 20 2006 20:21
#7
Yeah its to get a memorial to everyone from the north of/Northern Ireland who went to Spain 1936-39 to fight fascism. The IBCC is mostly made up of CPI and left republicans, Ciaran Crossey (a SPer) has been commissioned to write a pamphlet about the volunteers. The pamphlet is probably gonna be a pretty fair reflection of those who went and be more inclusive than just the International Brigadistas. I'm on the committee atm but for all the talk of inclusiveness everything put out stresses the war against fascism and the defence of democracy. Social Revolution isn't really getting a look in.
Still, a memorial to all those who fought is pretty much something that we can agree on, and the pamphlet should be interesting.
By all accounts the committee is more inclusive than in Derry, where the fact that its run by the IRSP has effectively put almost everyone else off getting involved.
Feb 20 2006 20:34
#8
Yeah, I think I heard something about the Irps running the one in Derry. In general how do people get on with the Irps in stuff like the water charges campaigns, anti war stuff etc? I've met a few who seem sane enough... but jesus, they're in the Irps!
Do ye in Organise! come across them much?
Feb 20 2006 20:37
#9
I've never really met with them but Boul has and they seem grand enough aslong as you don't approach the national question.
Of course as boul has pointed out to me on numerous occasions when i go off on one, they have had a swell of members since the cease fire, basically you no longer have to be a headcase, and so they have a few more decent people with niave politics.
Feb 21 2006 10:46
#10
We work with anyone on common struggles such as the water charges campaign which is effectively dead at the moment in Belfast, but will be resumed shortly.
Feb 21 2006 13:14
#11
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Ciaran Crossey (a SPer) has been commissioned to write a pamphlet about the volunteers.
our krossie is so much cooler than yours.
Feb 21 2006 20:55
#12
Our Crossey doesn't go in as much for pounding electronic music, it has to be said, but he's an interesting guy even still.
I think I've seen a real life Irp in the South about twice in the last ten years. Basically extinct down here, and good riddance frankly.
Two questions for Organise!, fueled by random curiousity more than anything else:
1) Why did you get involved in the SWP/IRSP version of the water tax campaign?
2) Are the rumours that you've recruited a legendarily not very coherent ex-SWP egomaniac true?
Feb 21 2006 21:03
#13
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
Our Crossey doesn't go in as much for pounding electronic music, it has to be said, but he's an interesting guy even still.I think I've seen a real life Irp in the South about twice in the last ten years. Basically extinct down here, and good riddance frankly.
Two questions for Organise!, fueled by random curiousity more than anything else:
1) Why did you get involved in the SWP/IRSP version of the water tax campaign?
2) Are the rumours that you've recruited a legendarily not very coherent ex-SWP egomaniac true?
im currently not a member but I Organise got involved in a non payment campaign. I believe the mad fucks in Socialist Democracy opposes this as overlooking the working class and instead have launched an anti privitisation campaign. Of course Organise see's no contradiction in being involved in both.
Didn't realise the Water Tax issue had different versions? I mean surely if it's a non payment campaign it's a non payment campaign or do youse trots turn everything into party politics?
Apparently the ex SWPer has joined, his politics have never been that coherent to my mind but I wouldn't call him an egomaniac, i think he just couldn't perform the intellectual gymnastics to remain in the SWP.
Feb 21 2006 21:11
#14
revol68 wrote:
Didn't realise the Water Tax issue had different versions?
As I understand it there are a shitload of different water tax campaigns. They include one for the NIC-ICTU bureaucrats, one as you've mentioned for the mad fucks in Socialist Democracy and then at least two which call for non-payment. Again as I understand it, the one Organise! are in is basically run by the McCann wing of the SWP in Derry and the IRSP in Belfast.
Something similar happened in Dublin during the water tax campaign a decade ago when there were multiple campaigns at at least one stage.
revol68 wrote:
I wouldn't call him an egomaniac
You've clearly never encountered his Indymedia posts, his contributions to "The Blanket" or his online blog.
Feb 21 2006 21:49
#15
Firstly, Organise! collectively decided to get involved in CAWT because it supports and campaigns for non-payment.
Secondly, the way we are going to beat double-taxation is by mobilising working-class support and self-organisation and the campaign needs to be broad based for starters or else we are not going to win.
Thirdly, the campaign in Derry may have been initiated in Derry by the SWP, but in Belfast CAWT is not run by the IRSP or anyone else for that matter, although they may be involved. It involves ourselves, independent community and trade union 'activists' etc
Lastly, that particular person you are referring to can answer for themselves, who has been sniped at from some in the left. Organise! is open to anyone who agrees with are aims and principles and constitution.
Feb 21 2006 22:09
#16
Right, Organise! were involved in the Communities Against the Water Tax quite a while before the SWP. Irps have been involved pretty much from its inception, as I believe have a few ex-members of the SP and SP 'dissidents'.
The SP We Won't Pay campaign (which is basically run by the SP) and the CAWT as well as NIC-ICTU bureaucrats and some trades council delgates were all involved in the other NIC-ICTU campaign you mention - I can't for the life of me remember the name of it now. All petitions and 'consultations' really, it seems that the bureaucrats have let it die off given the 'reforms' introduced by government - some in the Trades Council, some who had been involved in CAWT, seem to be looking to revive it. Don't know the SP position but they attended the meetings - as did I for what it was worth. Personally I don't reckon this is a campaign that should be revived. If it is it'll probably be so NIC-ICTU can try and claim leadership & control it.
After calling for a new campaign with the 'correct strategy' - workplace based opposition to privatisation and a pretty poor view re the possibility of united working class non-payment - the SD & ISN have set up a couple of groups that seem indentical to any other local groups set up to argue & build towards a non-payment campaign. So they're really doing the same as they criticised others for doing.
At present CAWT is pretty much dead in the water in Belfast (and Derry?), We Won't Pay seem at a low ebb too and promise a revitalised campaign come April.
It is perhaps though the left-wing variety of sectarianism rather than working class sectarianism that is doing most damage to this campaign. We're not that fussed on what the campaign is called - we're more interested in building opposition on the basis of local groups committed to non-payment. And we a certainly much too small an organisation to do that on our own.
Feb 21 2006 22:27
#17
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
After calling for a new campaign with the 'correct strategy' - workplace based opposition to privatisation and a pretty poor view re the possibility of united working class non-payment - the SD & ISN have set up a couple of groups that seem indentical to any other local groups set up to argue & build towards a non-payment campaign. So they're really doing the same as they criticised others for doing.
I'm curious about what is going on with the ISN above - it doesn't sound at all like the direction the Dublin ISN would go off in but I know very little about them in Belfast.
Feb 21 2006 22:55
#18
Basically the Socialist Party view (informed by positive and negative experiences in Dublin water and bin tax campaigns) was that:
(a) there would have to be a non-payment campaign and that
(b) the way to build one was to just get to work on doing it in the communities rather than starting with negotiations and carve ups with other small left groups.
The latter point was partially premised on a view that the likes of the SWP or IRSP would be incapable of building anything serious and would be more of a burden than a help. The fact that CAWT seems to have died a death, despite having some better activists involved would tend to back that up.
JoeBlack2 wrote:
I'm curious about what is going on with the ISN above - it doesn't sound at all like the direction the Dublin ISN would go off in but I know very little about them in Belfast.
You have to remember that the ISN is like a tiny patchwork with people from a range of different backgrounds in its quilt. In Belfast they seem to be generally close to Socialist Democracy, and not just on this issue. I think that they even hold joint public meetings with them. It's certainly strange - you couldn't conceive of a group further from the ISN core's ex-Sticky views on the North or a group less inclined towards the ISN's all-hold-hands anti-sectarianism.
Bobby wrote:
Lastly, that particular person you are referring to can answer for themselves, who has been sniped at from some in the left.
Look I've never met the guy. My view on him is influenced soley by his own writings, which make him seem like a complete buffoon without any help from anyone else. Maybe he's more coherent and reasonable in person.
Feb 21 2006 23:18
#19
Although, nothing visible is happening at the moment in terms of the anti-water charges campaign it would be irresponsible to suggest that a dead horse is being pulled. Remember, there is still over a year left to their introduction, so by that time local groups will be set up which will be co-ordinated from the grassroots upwards.
Feb 21 2006 23:32
#20
I quite agree, I just doubt that the serious local groups will be coordinated through the CAWT campaign - and my doubts are based on experience of the SWP in similar campaigns. Time will tell.
Feb 22 2006 16:17
#21
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
Basically the Socialist Party view (informed by positive and negative experiences in Dublin water and bin tax campaigns) was that:(a) there would have to be a non-payment campaign and that
(b) the way to build one was to just get to work on doing it in the communities rather than starting with negotiations and carve ups with other small left groups.
I'll take the liberty of augmenting that with
(c) We must be the leaders because nobody else has our level of analysis, etc.
In fact, I'll also take the liberty of removing a) and b) to leave c) on its own.
Surely you can see that setting up a wholly owned' subsidiary group (front) to compete with 3 other groups on the issue is exactly the worst way to 'get to work in the communities' and build and was only likely to lead to confusion and so on among those communities. If ye really didn't want to work with anybody else, you would have been far more honest to just campaign as the SP.
Feb 22 2006 16:17
#22
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
Basically the Socialist Party view (informed by positive and negative experiences in Dublin water and bin tax campaigns) was that:(a) there would have to be a non-payment campaign and that
(b) the way to build one was to just get to work on doing it in the communities rather than starting with negotiations and carve ups with other small left groups.
I'll take the liberty of augmenting that with
(c) We must be the leaders because nobody else has our level of analysis, etc.
In fact, I'll also take the liberty of removing a) and b) to leave c) on its own.
Surely you can see that setting up a wholly owned' subsidiary group (front) to compete with 3 other groups on the issue is exactly the worst way to 'get to work in the communities' and build and was only likely to lead to confusion and so on among those communities. If ye really didn't want to work with anybody else, you would have been far more honest to just campaign as the SP.
Feb 22 2006 16:20
#23
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
Basically the Socialist Party view (informed by positive and negative experiences in Dublin water and bin tax campaigns) was that:(a) there would have to be a non-payment campaign and that
(b) the way to build one was to just get to work on doing it in the communities rather than starting with negotiations and carve ups with other small left groups.
I'll take the liberty of augmenting that with
(c) We must be the leaders because nobody else has our level of analysis, etc.
In fact, I'll also take the liberty of removing a) and b) to leave c) on its own.
Surely you can see that setting up a wholly owned' subsidiary group (front) to compete with 3 other groups on the issue is exactly the worst way to 'get to work in the communities' and build and was only likely to lead to confusion and so on among those communities. If ye really didn't want to work with anybody else, you would have been far more honest to just campaign as the SP.
Feb 22 2006 16:20
#24
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
Basically the Socialist Party view (informed by positive and negative experiences in Dublin water and bin tax campaigns) was that:(a) there would have to be a non-payment campaign and that
(b) the way to build one was to just get to work on doing it in the communities rather than starting with negotiations and carve ups with other small left groups.
I'll take the liberty of augmenting that with
(c) We must be the leaders because nobody else has our level of analysis, etc.
In fact, I'll also take the liberty of removing a) and b) to leave c) on its own.
Surely you can see that setting up a wholly owned' subsidiary group (front) to compete with 3 other groups on the issue is exactly the worst way to 'get to work in the communities' and build and was only likely to lead to confusion and so on among those communities. If ye really didn't want to work with anybody else, you would have been far more honest to just campaign as the SP.
Feb 22 2006 16:21
#25
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
Basically the Socialist Party view (informed by positive and negative experiences in Dublin water and bin tax campaigns) was that:(a) there would have to be a non-payment campaign and that
(b) the way to build one was to just get to work on doing it in the communities rather than starting with negotiations and carve ups with other small left groups.
I'll take the liberty of augmenting that with
(c) We must be the leaders because nobody else has our level of analysis, etc.
In fact, I'll also take the liberty of removing a) and b) to leave c) on its own.
Surely you can see that setting up a wholly owned' subsidiary group (front) to compete with 3 other groups on the issue is exactly the worst way to 'get to work in the communities' and build and was only likely to lead to confusion and so on among those communities. If ye really didn't want to work with anybody else, you would have been far more honest to just campaign as the SP.
Feb 22 2006 22:42
#26
I always find repetition to be the most effective form of argument too!
gurrier wrote:
Surely you can see that setting up a wholly owned' subsidiary group (front) to compete with 3 other groups on the issue is exactly the worst way to 'get to work in the communities' and build and was only likely to lead to confusion and so on among those communities.
Not at all. There is no "front" here but an attempt to set up a genuine campaign (which of course may or may not work). We are doing exactly what we did in the water tax in Dublin and in most areas during the bin tax. Launch a campaign, get to work in the communities. Set up structures so that anyone who is serious can join but don't take forming an alliance with basically irrelevant left groups as a starting point and don't give them special privileges above and beyond the ordinary membership - the people we really do care about working with.
In our recent experience where we started by negotiating with the likes of the SWP first we ended up with two of the biggest internal problems in the anti-bin tax campaign for years afterwards - the division of Dun Laoghaire Rathdown and the mess that was the structure of the City area campaign - for no benefit to the campaign because they did fuck all of use anyway and later on became an active hindrance.
If you think back to the early days of the anti-water tax campaign in Dublin there were initially two seperate campaigns because the SWP launched one too. It gradually faded away because the SWP weren't capable of building a serious campaign. The same appears to have happened already to Communities Against The Water Tax, although it has to be said that the We Won't Pay Campaign hasn't to date achieved anything like the strength of the Dublin Anti-Water Tax Federation!
It's all about who we are interested primarily in working with - and that involved going directly to working class communities. The weight of a campaign isn't measured by how many tiny left groups sign up to it on day one, thank fuck, and nor is what will be a front decided by the same. If the We Won't Pay Campaign makes progress (and it's an if, despite our obviously superior "level of analysis" ) I have no doubt that the better groups and individuals currently outside it will join. As I said above time will tell.
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
We're not that fussed on what the campaign is called - we're more interested in building opposition on the basis of local groups committed to non-payment
The above quote also pretty much sums up the Socialist Party's attitude.
i'll be there!
The spaniard is a lovely pub!