orange order march
Dec 19 2005 01:14
hullo, i see from IRSP's posts on indymedia that the Orange order plan a march in dublin this saturday. the irps plan a counter demo of sorts. people's thoughts??
i'll go first, marches by sectarian right wing bastards of all shades should be opposed. of course, it's not a good idea to march with the irps, perhaps an anti nationalist demo? that could be nice.
why do they want to march anyway? them and their silly bloody outfits.
dare i dip my ignorant southern toe into the stormywaters of irish anarchists opinion on the north? i just know somebody's going to get sniffy, i might as well put on my new outfit.
Dec 19 2005 01:37
#2
to be honest i really don't see what we can do other than ignore the twats and get on with engaging with those currents that have a potential to negate such sectarian bollox. Most people in the north i would image feel this way, and i know plenty of people who oppose sectarian parades but recognise that it's an issue in which everything inevitably polarises into either/or. The oranger institutions are going down the shitter, no matter how many dodgy statistics joe black can provide. they have lost any mass base and have become essentially backward lumpen elements of no real use to the political class of unionism.
in the south of course i don't really care if the oranger order march, i mean it would only be a bunch of ole eejits getting funny looks and causing great confusion to all the fucking australian back packers (fuck i hate australian back packers!).
I would recommend no anarchist with any wit goes anywhere near any IRSP counter demostration, as this is only fuel to sectarian fires.
Ultimately though it's not an issue on which we can even begin to make head way on.
I know some in the WSM may see this as a cop out but it's the actual reality on the ground. Of course the WSM seem to think the Orange Order are a counter revolutionary force, to which I can only ask how? I mean surely they are no more counter revolutionary than the roman catholic church, presbytarians, or even the boys brigade.
Dec 19 2005 02:21
#3
so revol doesnt think the catholic church are counter revolutionary?!! 
Dec 19 2005 09:43
#4
kalabine wrote:
so revol doesnt think the catholic church are counter revolutionary?!!
best you stick to the tolling gang forums, more your level, eh?
Dec 19 2005 11:18
#5
It's still not quite clear what exactly this march is - see the long thread on indymedia on this at http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=73452
The logic of describing the Orange Order as a counter revolutionary organisation is that this is what it was set up as - see http://struggle.ws/ws99/ws57_order.html. It's useful to recognise these origins to try and move the debate away from those who simply see it as anti-catholic.
There is a detailed thread on the membership figures of the varrious loyal institutions and what they mean - this was one of the more useful discussions on here. However even if you took the lowest estimates of 40-50,000 rather than the high of 100,000 this still makes them by far the biggest politicial organisation on the island. We might hope they are declining to nothing but with those figures it is more than a little stupid to assert this is already the case.
As to the march - I'm not sure how much value there is in mobilising against it if the counter demo is liable to be dominated by the likes of RSF and the IRSP. It's probable that the sole purpose of the parade is to provoke a predictable reaction from exactly such groups to enhance the 'your side against ours' debate around the OO (which is good for their recruitment).
Anyway if we want to do more than shut our eyes and wish they would go away then exploring the origins of the OO as a counter revolutionary institution set up to break a (mostly) protestant led rebellion is a useful starting point.
Dec 19 2005 11:29
#6
JoeBlack2 wrote:
As to the march - I'm not sure how much value there is in mobilising against it if the counter demo is liable to be dominated by the likes of RSF and the IRSP. It's probable that the sole purpose of the parade is to provoke a predictable reaction from exactly such groups to enhance the 'your side against ours' debate around the OO (which is good for their recruitment).
Yep, I agree. I quite liked the idea of a 'save sodomy from ulster' type piss-take counter demo - but pretty much anything that RSF would go to would be something we shouldn't. Even if it is a bunch of UDA men, I don't see the point in opposing them alongside RSF.
Dec 19 2005 11:40
#7
JoeBlack2 wrote:
It's still not quite clear what exactly this march is - see the long thread on indymedia on this at http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=73452The logic of describing the Orange Order as a counter revolutionary organisation is that this is what it was set up as - see http://struggle.ws/ws99/ws57_order.html. It's useful to recognise these origins to try and move the debate away from those who simply see it as anti-catholic.
There is a detailed thread on the membership figures of the varrious loyal institutions and what they mean - this was one of the more useful discussions on here. However even if you took the lowest estimates of 40-50,000 rather than the high of 100,000 this still makes them by far the biggest politicial organisation on the island. We might hope they are declining to nothing but with those figures it is more than a little stupid to assert this is already the case.
As to the march - I'm not sure how much value there is in mobilising against it if the counter demo is liable to be dominated by the likes of RSF and the IRSP. It's probable that the sole purpose of the parade is to provoke a predictable reaction from exactly such groups to enhance the 'your side against ours' debate around the OO (which is good for their recruitment).
Anyway if we want to do more than shut our eyes and wish they would go away then exploring the origins of the OO as a counter revolutionary institution set up to break a (mostly) protestant led rebellion is a useful starting point.
yes joe lets look back to 1798 and do some wishful thinking, eh?
And the decline in the Orange Order is qualitive not quantative, lets look at it's access to levers of power, lets look at it's socio economic make up, it's role in state hegemony.
Nah lets just look back to 1798 and a simplistic ontology that reduces the orange order to a British plot or divide and rule.
Joe Black you have the intellectual agility of a hippo.
And joe what exactly are you 26 county heros doing that is actively countering the Orange Order, oh wait nothing!
None of youse live in working class prod areas, none of youse actually work with people in the Orange Order, been on strike with people who have been in the Orange Order.
The Orange Order is counter revolutionary only in the 18th century sense of bourgeouis nationalist revolutions.
and the Orange Order are not a political organisation in the standard sense.
Surely with your model we could call the Roman Catholic church the biggest political organisation in Ireland?
Okay Joe suppose i suggested that the Catholic church is going to the dogs in the south (it is too) you would accept that yes? You would accept that it's role in the state is significantly eroded (though less than the Orange Orders in the north), that one could say it is out of step with the general geist of the country.
This is what i mean when I say the orange order is a spent force.
Also the Orange Orders membership figurse include people who go once a year to the twelfth and even those who haven't been near it in years.
A friend of mine's da is still listed as a member despite the fact he gave it up for a crock of sectarian shite a decade ago.
Dec 19 2005 17:12
#8
The Orange Order would love a massive counter demonstration, violence and riots. It would play right into their hands.
The best thing we could do would be to cheer them on.
Show them that we're not ignorant, bigoted fools like them.
Dec 19 2005 18:23
#9
Is this march by either the Orange Order or the UDA? Serious question - I haven't been able to find out. Also I thought that the counter demo was organised by RSF and was like a mile or so away from the march.
If the march is billed as a march in support of victims of republican violence, as I've also heard may be the case, a demonstration against it would surely be more than slightly counter productive. Just the sort of counter demo the organisers and political pundits could make a load out of. And who knows - if it doesn't kick off maybe the brethren will be more amenable to living in a united Ireland by 2016 
Sure if Sinn Fein were in power by then it may as well be the British government anyhow
Dec 20 2005 13:10
#10
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Is this march by either the Orange Order or the UDA? Serious question - I haven't been able to find out. Also I thought that the counter demo was organised by RSF and was like a mile or so away from the march.If the march is billed as a march in support of victims of republican violence, as I've also heard may be the case, a demonstration against it would surely be more than slightly counter productive. Just the sort of counter demo the organisers and political pundits could make a load out of.
It is all unclear at this stage which is why I posted that indymedia thread at http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=73452 which goes into it all in some detail but as yet doesn't answer these questions.
Dec 20 2005 13:28
#11
JoeBlack2 wrote:
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Is this march by either the Orange Order or the UDA? Serious question - I haven't been able to find out. Also I thought that the counter demo was organised by RSF and was like a mile or so away from the march.If the march is billed as a march in support of victims of republican violence, as I've also heard may be the case, a demonstration against it would surely be more than slightly counter productive. Just the sort of counter demo the organisers and political pundits could make a load out of.
It is all unclear at this stage which is why I posted that indymedia thread at http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=73452 which goes into it all in some detail but as yet doesn't answer these questions.
and who says indymedia is a big puddle of pish?
Dec 20 2005 14:39
#12
it was RSF not IRSP who are organising the counter-demo and it's nowhere near where the OO march is going.
I can't see this going ahead really everyone has seen it for what it is, an attempt to wind people up, even some sf associates of mine aren't falling for it - and as we all know they'll fall for anything.
Dec 22 2005 21:42
#13
Apparently it's not even an OO march, it's a loveulster march and it was banned from Belfast.
http://indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=73561&condense_comments=false#comment132796
Dec 23 2005 00:22
#14
guydebordisdead wrote:
Apparently it's not even an OO march, it's a loveulster march and it was banned from Belfast.http://indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=73561&condense_comments=false#comment132796
southern lefties fail to grasp the nuances of loyalism shocker.
Jan 22 2006 19:56
#15
Does anyone think that any C18 or other racist types will come down to this?
Jan 22 2006 20:02
#16
Not too sure how many there actually are up here to be able to 'come down', a few maybe, but it might attract some english fascists.
Jan 22 2006 21:44
#17
I got word from a republican that C18 will be in attendence, that's not to say he's telling the truth.
Jan 22 2006 21:54
#18
Any anarchist groups or anarchists planning to do anything if they do decide to turn up?
Jan 22 2006 22:00
#19
play into their hands?
Jan 22 2006 22:19
#20
Did you not see my earlier post?
The Orange Order would love a massive counter demonstration, violence and riots. It would play right into their hands.
The best thing we could do would be to cheer them on.
Show them that we're not ignorant, bigoted fools like them.
Jan 23 2006 09:16
#21
You want to cheer on the OO?
What would your family in west-belfast say?
Jan 23 2006 12:32
#22
guydebordisdead wrote:
You want to cheer on the OO?What would your family in west-belfast say?
I have family in west belfast? 
Aye, there muct be clear opposition made to sectarian orders such as the Orange Order and Ancient Order of Hibernians, without aligning yourself with either sides.