Vote No to Lisbon
Sep 10 2009 15:01
The Workers Solidarity Movement is calling for a No vote in the Lisbon referendum. It is a treaty for the rich, people in Ireland can do a lot better than a choice between the clowns in the Dáil or those in Brussels.
We oppose the EU's policies of privatisation, militarisation and attacks on workers' conditions but don’t insult people’s intelligence by saying that our current society in Ireland with its severe recession, diabolical public services and corruption is anything better. The major lack of democracy in our lives is not between us and the EU but between the Irish government and us.
The upcoming Lisbon vote is one of the rare occasions that the people get a direct say. But it’s only a very limited say. We get to choose between either a gombeen republic or an embryonic European state, neither of which makes for an exciting prospect.
Whichever way the vote goes, there is no indication that either a yes or a no vote will substantially alter the exclusion of the public from major public decisions. That requires a rethinking of the kind of society we want.
The problem is not the treaty alone but the EU as an institution.We call on people to Vote No to Lisbon but also to organise to take more control of our lives and to build real democracy in our communities and our workplaces.
Sep 12 2009 14:50
#2
At least you're not confused in your position. The (non-)party line says dont vote, so you dont vote.
Fair enough.
People should do what they want really, but is a purist attitude towards voting going to bring about the revolution more than rejecting the treaty would?
Sep 12 2009 19:31
#3
Quote:
is a purist attitude towards voting going to bring about the revolution more than rejecting the treaty would?
If by a 'purist' attitude towards voting, you mean refusing to participate in bourgeois politics, then the answer is no, it won't 'bring about the revolution' in and of itself, but it won't actively undermine it either.
~J.
Sep 19 2009 20:56
#4
BigLittleJ wrote:
Quote:
is a purist attitude towards voting going to bring about the revolution more than rejecting the treaty would?If by a 'purist' attitude towards voting, you mean refusing to participate in bourgeois politics, then the answer is no, it won't 'bring about the revolution' in and of itself, but it won't actively undermine it either.
~J.
What are bourgeoise politics?
Sep 19 2009 21:28
#5
Good stuff.
Sep 19 2009 22:34
#6
I agree, 'good stuff'
Sep 19 2009 22:56
#7
Is this an injoke or am I just being thick?
~J.
Sep 19 2009 23:51
#8
Connollyite wrote:
What are bourgeoise politics?
Includes, but not limited to, the nationalist shite you pimp.
Sep 20 2009 11:38
#9
Id say thats a bit simplistic. We are forced to engage with bourgeois politics whether we want it or not. Most of the time in order to oppose it, in the streets. And of course we shouldnt limit ourselves to this, we shouldnt let our politics be guided by their agenda but i dont think you can escape having to deal with bourgeois politics at some point or another.
Now you can say voting is taking things to a different level. It is in a way, but you're not electing someone here that will 'represent' you. You dont fall for representation. And by voting no to a treaty that has been designed to speed up the breaking of the labour movement, thats making employment laws even softer than they are and so thats basically going to be detrimental to all working class in Europe, you are still opposing bourgeois politics in a way.
No one is saying its a revolutionary act and maybe this is just slowing down the process but its not exactly collaborating with the enemy either.
And i dont see why all opposition to the treaty should be deemed as nationalist. Its not because the main bourgeois parties in the UK that oppose the treaty are doing so for nationalist reasons that all opposition to the treaty is nationalist. If anything, that is reasoning in terms of bourgeois politics.
Sep 20 2009 14:28
#10
Quote:
No one is saying its a revolutionary act
I doubt anyone here has experienced a 'revolutionary act'.
Sep 20 2009 14:30
#11
Do anarchists here object to voting in 'bourgeoise elections' out of tactics or principle?
Sep 20 2009 14:31
#12
A tactical principle.
Sep 20 2009 14:33
#13
Oh very good.
Sep 20 2009 14:35
#14
Jack wrote:
A tactical principle.
So would you consider, say, the electoral growth of the BNP in Britain as a worrying development?
Sep 20 2009 14:37
#15
It's not just rhetorical, the point is we don't not participate in elections because we think voting is the bogeyman or because it's our holy dogma. It's a pragmatic, tactical decision because we know that participation in "bourgeois elections" (I hate that term) because we know they're a hiding to nothing.
Sep 20 2009 14:40
#16
Connollyite wrote:
So would you consider, say, the electoral growth of the BNP in Britain as a worrying development?
It's worrying because it means that over a million working class people have been won over by their ideas enough to vote for them. It's worrying because it signals a general move to the right in politics. It's worrying because it may give fascists to the right of the BNP confidence (or the tactical necessity) to engage in more extreme acts. Not because I'm scared that they will seize power and turn Britain into a Nazi state.
The problem isn't that there were a million crosses in the BNP box, the problem is that a million (mostly working class) people made the choice to do that. I'm more interested in fighting the conditions that lead to people doing that, than stemming the numbers of people who vote BNP.
Sep 20 2009 15:01
#17
Jack wrote:
Connollyite wrote:
So would you consider, say, the electoral growth of the BNP in Britain as a worrying development?It's worrying because it means that over a million working class people have been won over by their ideas enough to vote for them. It's worrying because it signals a general move to the right in politics. It's worrying because it may give fascists to the right of the BNP confidence (or the tactical necessity) to engage in more extreme acts. Not because I'm scared that they will seize power and turn Britain into a Nazi state.
The problem isn't that there were a million crosses in the BNP box, the problem is that a million (mostly working class) people made the choice to do that. I'm more interested in fighting the conditions that lead to people doing that, than stemming the numbers of people who vote BNP.
But the reason people are turning to the BNP is a result of their electoral strategy. The National Front never won any seats when they were goose-stepping up and down the country. The same before the BNP changed their strategy in 1994 in favour of the strategy of Euro-nationalism. Elections aren't the end in itself for the BNP, much like they shouldn't be for the working class.
But by their involvement in elections, and appealing to the genuine concerns of the white working class they are able to set the agenda, as the working class have been left abandoned by all the mainstream parties, and indeed, the Left.
Sep 20 2009 15:15
#18
Quote:
I'm more interested in fighting the conditions that lead to people doing that, than stemming the numbers of people who vote BNP.
Doesn't seem to be working does it? In fact, the conditions are staying the same AND people are voting BNP!
Sep 20 2009 15:24
#19
Connollyite wrote:
Doesn't seem to be working does it? In fact, the conditions are staying the same AND people are voting BNP!
This just reinforces my point. It's not as if there are a shortage of people attempting to "stop the BNP" or people standing in elections opposing them.
Sep 20 2009 15:25
#20
Connollyite wrote:
Quote:
I'm more interested in fighting the conditions that lead to people doing that, than stemming the numbers of people who vote BNP.Doesn't seem to be working does it? In fact, the conditions are staying the same AND people are voting BNP!
eh? the dominant anti-fascist strategy is 'vote anyone but BNP', so if anything doesn't seem to be working, it's playing on an electoral terrain.
Quoted in UAF election propaganda wrote:
By using your vote for any of the democratic parties you can help to stop the BNP
http://www.uaf.org.uk/resources/0903euro2009_would-you-vote-for-lo.pdf
edit: jack beat me to it
Sep 20 2009 15:32
#21
Connollyite wrote:
But the reason people are turning to the BNP is a result of their electoral strategy. The National Front never won any seats when they were goose-stepping up and down the country. The same before the BNP changed their strategy in 1994 in favour of the strategy of Euro-nationalism. Elections aren't the end in itself for the BNP, much like they shouldn't be for the working class.
They changing their strategy, yes. Which, I would argue in the end has resulted in them effectively going native - they've "sold out" their national socialist principles in the time honoured way that endless leftist parties have abandoned socialism for the sake of pragmatism and populism at the first hint of success. The BNP are no longer fringe Nazi lunatics, the reason that they have been able to grow is because their politics now just represent the right, racialist wing of the establishment - their anti-establishment credentials are entirely bogus, and more often than not come from the desperate attempts by leftists and the mainstream politics parties trying to paint them as the big bad other.
Quote:
But by their involvement in elections, and appealing to the genuine concerns of the white working class they are able to set the agenda, as the working class have been left abandoned by all the mainstream parties, and indeed, the Left.
Where exactly do the BNP "set the agenda" - from where I am, when it comes to racialising the debate and pushing aggressive anti-working class measures then the BNP are amateurs. I'm sure they will be able to effectively use their electoral gains and respectability to push the debate further to the right - but that's far from setting the agenda. I'm sure they will do everything they can to make things worse, and a growing electoral and activist base helps them do this, but - as I said, the growth of the BNP is a symptom of the problem, it's not the problem itself.
Sep 20 2009 18:07
#22
Quote:
They changing their strategy, yes. Which, I would argue in the end has resulted in them effectively going native - they've "sold out" their national socialist principles in the time honoured way that endless leftist parties have abandoned socialism for the sake of pragmatism and populism at the first hint of success.
This is exactly the same argument that criticises the Left, for participating in elections means that you've abandoned your principles! Much the same in Ireland, where the Provisional Republican Movement is criticised for ''selling out'' because it became involved in elections.
The BNP are as fascist as they were when they were formed. The only difference is they've applied their theory ''on the streets''. When this did not influence politically, they analysed the successes of the far-right in Europe and adopted their Euro-nationalist concept.
Because the far-right are being successful you actually consider it a success for the left and the working class because the BNP have in fact ''sold out''!? Not the other way round!
Quote:
The BNP are no longer fringe Nazi lunatics, the reason that they have been able to grow is because their politics now just represent the right, racialist wing of the establishment - their anti-establishment credentials are entirely bogus, and more often than not come from the desperate attempts by leftists and the mainstream politics parties trying to paint them as the big bad other.
And that is a rehash of the old German Stalinist/Social Democratic position, i.e. fascism equals reaction. Not recognising the qualitative differences is not only naive, but also very dangerous.
Quote:
Where exactly do the BNP "set the agenda" - from where I am, when it comes to racialising the debate and pushing aggressive anti-working class measures then the BNP are amateurs. I'm sure they will be able to effectively use their electoral gains and respectability to push the debate further to the right - but that's far from setting the agenda. I'm sure they will do everything they can to make things worse, and a growing electoral and activist base helps them do this, but - as I said, the growth of the BNP is a symptom of the problem, it's not the problem itself.
The state doesn't move the BNP to the right. It is the other way around. The BNP turns the state to the right by legitmising racism and putting it on the agenda. Much like the militant neo-nazi's when petrol bombing Turkish hostels in Germany in the early nineties laid the groundwork for the turn of the state to the right. Primed in fact. That racism, from below is not unlike the racism from below that the BNP are perpetuating.
Sep 20 2009 18:09
#23
Jack wrote:
Connollyite wrote:
Doesn't seem to be working does it? In fact, the conditions are staying the same AND people are voting BNP!This just reinforces my point. It's not as if there are a shortage of people attempting to "stop the BNP" or people standing in elections opposing them.
And why do working people vote for the BNP over them?
Sep 20 2009 18:23
#24
I'm splitting this to a new thread here - http://libcom.org/forums/organise/nature-bnp-20092009
Sep 20 2009 18:42
#25
moved to the other thread - http://libcom.org/forums/organise/nature-bnp-20092009#comment-341661
Oct 2 2009 10:04
#26
Dear people of Ireland,
Please vote today with"NO" reg. the "Lisbon Treaty" This hole paper is just a crime.
I wrote this message from Germany to you. One of the most unfree countries in the EU.
We Germans like a lot of another countries having not the chance to vote our opinion about this criminal EU organisations and his criminal intend to bring the rest of the almost free european countries like you.. my dear lovely Irish people.. into a system of EU dictatorship and total political control..
Fight for your freedom and political self-administration and even by doing this for "Our" freedom and political self-administration.
Vote - "NO
All my very best
Oliver
Oct 2 2009 13:10
#27
Quote:
a system of EU dictatorship and total political control
The Euronazis are taking over the worlzd!!11!!!lol!
~J.
Oct 2 2009 22:14
#28
just like in the sum of all fears??
Oct 2 2009 23:49
#29
What's that?
Oct 3 2009 01:38
#30
stupid movie, featuring the cleft chin of heartthrob ben afleck, in which euronazis detonate an a-bomb in baltimore.
We in the WSM appear to be rather confused about what we want, but we're sure voting must help somehow....
~J.