LARC and the West Essex Zapatistas

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Posted By

jono
Jul 21 2005 23:43

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Lazlo_Woodbine
Jul 24 2005 13:57

Right, I've deleted the two abusive posts that appeared on this thread.

These boards are for discussion that is too specialised and/or lengthy to be had on the ResistG8 email list, which is concerned only with practical organising.

The LARC/WEZ discussion is one such issue. Hopefully we'll be able to debate it usefully.

As I see it, there has been a problem within LARC, with members of the 'West Essex Zapatista' group being expelled using what they consider to be underhand and non-democratic methods. This is a problem for Dissent! because LARC is a dissent info-point. It is also an info-point for Peoples' Global Action, and therefore arguments about the un/democratic nature of LARC also seem to overlap with similar arguments about the un/democtatic nature of the PGA network.

Anyone else want to elaborate?

PaulMarsh
Jul 24 2005 15:08

I didn't see anything abusive about my post.

The likes of Fabian and Spacebunny should play no part, given their past behaviour, in any serious anarchist movement.

Blacklisted
Jul 24 2005 15:18

Can someone please explain to me (as it seems to be an issue in the network Im apparently part of) what the fuck this is all about? Who the fuck are these people and why were they kicked out of LARC and why shouldnt they be in any (A) movment and what was their past behaviour and why should I even care?

Sorry, but this is getting on my tits so much that I actually find myself really curious now - I was trying to ignore it all!! confused

PaulMarsh
Jul 24 2005 16:18

Fabian regards anarchism and fascism as synonomous. Therefore he can hardly expect to work with @s, indeed why should he want to?

He disrupted the Gandalf prisoner support campaign in the 1990s, even handing the parents of one prisoner a leaflet saying their son deserved to be in a prison.

Oh, and he's a public school boy.

As for Spacebunny, inviting the journalist Andrew Gilligan to one of the main meetings in Scotland opposing the G8 did exactly what he intended - it was a jolly jape for a fellow Cambridge old boy, and it completely disrupted the meeting. We have enough shit to deal with from journalists, without inviting spook friendly wasters like Gilligan to our meetings. Then again anybody impressed by Stewart Home though, should probably be pitied rather than abused.

We (by which I mean the entire @ movement) can save ourselves a lot of time and effort (and gain a little credibility into the bargain) by sending such timewasters to Coventry. They contribute nothing, and are parasitical in the dictionary definition of the word.

As for the LARC stuff, that is for members of LARC to comment on. I will only say that Fabian and his chum behaving in such a disruptive way that they had to be banned from the centre was hardly a surprise....

Lazlo_Woodbine
Jul 24 2005 17:52

Paul -- calling for people to be shot isn't going to make for useful; debate, get over it.

PaulMarsh wrote:
As for Spacebunny, inviting the journalist Andrew Gilligan to one of the main meetings in Scotland opposing the G8 did exactly what he intended - it was a jolly jape for a fellow Cambridge old boy, and it completely disrupted the meeting.

This is totally untrue. Spacebunny actually outed AG in the meeting, after no one else had recognised him. I believe the two of them used to be in the same Labour party branch about 15 years ago; not a shooting offense. Kalabine was in the meeting, he can vouch for SB's behaviour.

Let's stick to the facts.

Regarding the anarchism/fascism parallels, isn't this the main argument of Home's *Anarchist Integralism*? I've only ever heard second hand accounts of the book.

PaulMarsh
Jul 24 2005 20:29

Spacebunny invited Gilligan to the meeting - I believe they were at Cambridge together.

kalabine
Jul 25 2005 00:30

spacebunny did call the meetings attention to gilligan's presence, however...

after gilligans ejection some of us went outside to monitor his actions, and spacebunny came down and started talking to him in a very pally way - gilligan led spacebunny off out of our earshot, and myself and a womble were concerned that spacebunny (being an idiot) could be saying all sorts of bollocks to the journo, so we went up to ask him (SB) if he was alright, he got very abrupt and said "do you mind? this man (gilligan) has been my friend for 15 years!"

now given that the meeting (to organise anarchist blocs for the monday and wednesday actions) was one that spacebunny wasnt keen on - the uncharitable could draw their own conclusions - as we could about gilligan's spook conections and friendship with SB

personally i find both spacebunny and fabian to be fairly stupid and of little use - fabians public naming of people involved in larc raises serious questions, as does spacebunny's attempts at dividing dissent britain from the pga

Lazlo_Woodbine
Jul 25 2005 10:46
kalabine wrote:
he got very abrupt and said "do you mind? this man (gilligan) has been my friend for 15 years!"

He clarified this to me to mean that they had been friends 'fifteen years ago'.

the button
Jul 25 2005 12:03
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
'West Essex Zapatista'

Says it all, really. roll eyes

Larry O'Hara
Jul 26 2005 10:44

That Space Bunny (name removed by admin - please do not reveal people's real names they haven't permitted you too. SB and other WEZ people have had their posts censored similarly) should be conversing on friendly terms with Gilligan is no surprise--on his past antics, re GANDALF & other matters, Space Bunny is a spook, along with Fuckwit/Home, he dances to the secret state's tune like a marionette. I strongly suggest that his first version (I have been friends for 15 years) is more nearer the truth than his edited climb-down.

alibaba
Jul 26 2005 17:02

1. it was bunny that identified gilligan - without him u lot would be screwed!! i was there outside the meeting - bunny does not like people telling him who he can and cannot talk to, and told u so.

2. u have no evidence to suggest him or home or anyone else is a state asset.

these accusations are just distractions to hide the fact that u cannot answer criticisms of the elitest and institutionally racist crap that you call a movement.

larc and the pga have broken with concensus decision making and yet pretend that they haven't. i fully support the naming of names in order to protect comrades who could be tricked like fabian and i were by both LARC elite and the PGA.

asim butt,

ali baba and the 40 million thieves crew,

west essex

Lazlo_Woodbine
Jul 26 2005 19:06

Abusive post deleted. Let's keep this on topic. 8)

kalabine
Jul 26 2005 19:30

it wasnt abusive it was an accurate description of the above poster

so, spacebunny should be able to talk to spook connected journos and anyone else he wants, even the police?

fine - but he cant expect to work with people, or be taken seriously

and the behaviour of fabian around larc and gandalf was utterly disgusting and the actions of a tout quite frankly - now i'm not interested in larc, and i certainly had no time for green anarchist, or the alf - but what he's done is unforgivable

but hey, i suppose i'm authowiterwian roll eyes

kalabine
Jul 26 2005 19:32
alibaba wrote:

these accusations are just distractions to hide the fact that u cannot answer criticisms of the elitest and institutionally racist crap that you call a movement.

racist?! what? oh yeah i forgot fabian is an octoroon, or so he claims confused

Lazlo_Woodbine
Jul 26 2005 19:56
PaulMarsh wrote:
Fabian regards anarchism and fascism as synonomous. Therefore he can hardly expect to work with @s, indeed why should he want to?

He disrupted the Gandalf prisoner support campaign in the 1990s, even handing the parents of one prisoner a leaflet saying their son deserved to be in a prison.

Alibaba -- is this true? Do you think it is acceptable behaviour?

Larry O'Hara
Jul 26 2005 21:45

I have no knowledge of whether 'Ali Baba' was present at the GANDALF support meeting in Conway Hall at which Fabian 'Fuckwit' Tompsett handed a leaflet denouncing the GANDALF defendants as fascist to Sax Wood's parents--but I was certainly present.

In any event, there is a great absurdity in the likes of Tompsett/Space Bunny etc coming to this forum pretending to argue politics, or feigning concern about 'manipulative tactics'. After all, the basis of their politics is a total disregard for truth, indeed their slogan 'truth is the enemy' sums it up. Whatever criticisms might be had of GA, when they were under the state cosh from Operation Washington, Space Bunny/Home/Tompsett were all spreading disinformation to suit the state's agenda. The LARC statement expelling Fuckwit & company is interesting as it shows them acting exactly the same way again--one action, for instance, was Tompsett using wiki technology to fraudulently alter a LARC statement in order to make it seem to call for violence against Ken Livingstone.

Given that their 'mentor', the coward Stewart Home, is on record as stating anarchism=fascism, further debate really seems somewhat academic.

If (a big IF) Space Bunny did identify Gilligan, then that would have been a stunt to enhance his own credibility, and/or pre-empt somebody else's imminent identification.

kalabine
Jul 26 2005 22:17
LARRY O'HARA wrote:

If (a big IF) Space Bunny did identify Gilligan, then that would have been a stunt to enhance his own credibility, and/or pre-empt somebody else's imminent identification.

he definately did, he made a technical point - it caused the hitherto well facilitated and fast moving (for its size 400+ people) meeting to nearly collapse in chaos - another motive perhaps?

Larry O'Hara
Jul 26 2005 22:22
kalabine wrote:
LARRY O'HARA wrote:

If (a big IF) Space Bunny did identify Gilligan, then that would have been a stunt to enhance his own credibility, and/or pre-empt somebody else's imminent identification.

he definately did, he made a technical point - it caused the hitherto well facilitated and fast moving (for its size 400+ people) meeting to nearly collapse in chaos - another motive perhaps?

Thanks for that information. Given that, as somebody suggested, Space Bunny didn't like the meeting amyway, a plausible motive. Indeed, it is logical that he encouraged his spook friend to attend precisely in order to be able to enact this piece of political theatre. After all, the terrain wasn't normal Gilligan territory, was it??

kalabine
Jul 26 2005 22:41
LARRY O'HARA wrote:
After all, the terrain wasn't normal Gilligan territory, was it??

not only that but he is such a recognisable figure - as everyone said it was wierd for him to try to infiltrate a meeting of any sort

interestingly i saw gilligan watching the skirmishes on the carnival for full enjoyment the next day - got some photos of him - he managed to get where no ther journos had (round the back streets)

Thora
Jul 26 2005 23:05
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
kalabine wrote:
he got very abrupt and said "do you mind? this man (gilligan) has been my friend for 15 years!"

He clarified this to me to mean that they had been friends 'fifteen years ago'.

He was certainly very aggressive when Gilligan was asked to leave outside the meeting, telling me I had no right to speak to his friend like that. Personally I think the whole thing was a set up - Gilligan wanted to be roughed up and thrown out, and got the pictures I'm sure. Who can say what Spacebunny's role in that was...

Thora
Jul 26 2005 23:12

I fail to understand why Fabian's tolerated at all. Just recently he's been throwing around bizarre accusations of racism with no justification - people involved with Euromayday being racist because of the "Euro" bit, or that organisers of a No Borders march are racist because leaflets were not printed in Kurdish (which in fact they were) roll eyes . I wasn't at the LARC AGM, but I agree with Lazlo that from what I've heard it was basically a stitch-up. Although it might not have been the best way to go about it, I do completely agree that those expulsions were necessary.

kalabine
Jul 27 2005 08:55

the expulsions from larc werent a stitch up according to what i've been told - fabian and his friends were a disruptive influence, they deserved to be kicked out, everyone else at larc wanted the disruptive and damaging goons kicked out

and yes i dont know why anyone tolerates fabian - and the thing that bothers me is that if one of us were to ask he be excluded from a meeting we'd be denounced as authowitawian

Lazlo_Woodbine
Jul 27 2005 10:18
Thora wrote:
Gilligan wanted to be roughed up and thrown out, and got the pictures I'm sure.

So where are these pictures?

Right now Spacebunny is one of the very few people doing prisoner support for those facing trials in Scotland, and I'll need better evidence than this to believe he's part of some elaborate journo-cop sting operation.

Throwing around speculations and accusations doesn't make me take this too seriously. We're quite good enough at screwing each other up due to personalisty-clashes without it needing to be part of a secret state operation. I'm prepared to believe that some people have acted badly -- so far no one's denied the gandalf leaflet thing -- but let's keep it to what we know.

Larry O'Hara
Jul 27 2005 10:28

[quote="Lazlo_WoodbineRight now Spacebunny is one of the very few people doing prisoner support for those facing trials in Scotland

Throwing around speculations and accusations doesn't make me take this too seriously. We're quite good enough at screwing each other up due to personalisty-clashes without it needing to be part of a secret state operation. I'm prepared to believe that some people have acted badly -- so far no one's denied the gandalf leaflet thing -- but let's keep it to what we know.

1) In the past, Space Bunny actively sabotaged prisoner support (the GANDALF case)

2) Throwing around speculations & accusations is exactly what he/Home/Tompsett spend their time doing--check out the Stewart Home society web-site Space Bunny runs. It is for such speculation/accusations that Tompsett was ejected from LARC

3) If Space Bunny was whayt I think he is, then him being active in prisoner support now the media spotlight has shifted from Scotland is what I would expect--so he can build his network of influence.

alibaba
Jul 27 2005 11:33

i don't know about the meeting - i wasn't there, but i believe that fabian is on good terms with most the gandalf prisoners - ask them and then write about it!

the criticism of GA was against their support of fascist bombings. i support that criticism fully.

the PGA and LARC have blocked us involving african groups in pga europe - this is institutional racism. pga and larc have stopped us getting involved in the pga asia conference because i was labelled 'white' - this is racism. pga and larc ignored supressed and harrassed the voice refugee forum members and the organisation as a whole - another example of their racism - i could go on

yes i am disruptive of white supremacy! read the texts on ourmayday.org (not .uk or euro crap - its workers of the world - not "europeans only") and then reply to the issues involved - not speculation and rumour. this is larry o hara's game as all the so called evidence he has is speculation and rumour - as for larry o hara- the world wide expert on fascism - hgow come u are so ignorant of nazis in india? even when there was a nazi government in india ie the BJP - u knew nothing at all about it - more euro-centricity perhaps?

asim butt

Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
PaulMarsh wrote:
Fabian regards anarchism and fascism as synonomous. Therefore he can hardly expect to work with @s, indeed why should he want to?

He disrupted the Gandalf prisoner support campaign in the 1990s, even handing the parents of one prisoner a leaflet saying their son deserved to be in a prison.

Alibaba -- is this true? Do you think it is acceptable behaviour?

alibaba
Jul 27 2005 11:55

see http://www.kolumbus.fi/antra/BELGRADE.htm for a balanced account of the PGA Belgrade conference.

Larry O'Hara
Jul 27 2005 12:08
alibaba wrote:
i don't know about the meeting - i wasn't there, but i believe that fabian is on good terms with most the gandalf prisoners - ask them and then write about it!

the criticism of GA was against their support of fascist bombings. i support that criticism fully.

the PGA and LARC have blocked us involving african groups in pga europe - this is institutional racism. pga and larc have stopped us getting involved in the pga asia conference because i was labelled 'white' - this is racism. pga and larc ignored supressed and harrassed the voice refugee forum members and the organisation as a whole - another example of their racism - i could go on

yes i am disruptive of white supremacy! read the texts on ourmayday.org (not .uk or euro crap - its workers of the world - not "europeans only") and then reply to the issues involved - not speculation and rumour. this is larry o hara's game as all the so called evidence he has is speculation and rumour - as for larry o hara- the world wide expert on fascism - hgow come u are so ignorant of nazis in india? even when there was a nazi government in india ie the BJP - u knew nothing at all about it - more euro-centricity perhaps?

asim butt

Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
PaulMarsh wrote:
Fabian regards anarchism and fascism as synonomous. Therefore he can hardly expect to work with @s, indeed why should he want to?

He disrupted the Gandalf prisoner support campaign in the 1990s, even handing the parents of one prisoner a leaflet saying their son deserved to be in a prison.

Alibaba -- is this true? Do you think it is acceptable behaviour?

1) I was at the meeting referred to, & I don't need to 'ask' anybody about it, thank you.

2) GA did not support "fascist bombings"

3) You claim you were labelled "white". Not knowing you, I cannot say anything other than to ask whether they maybe had a good (factual) reason for doing so?

4) I am bizarrely criticised for "not knowing" about the BJP in India. How do you know what I know or don't?

One thing I do know, from your post, is you are a dishonest disruptive individual--exactly what I would expect you to be, given your allegiances.

alibaba
Jul 27 2005 12:20

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchism/writers/anarcho/environment/anarchy3.html

"We can get an insight to Booth's ideas from another of his articles (as posted on the internet at: www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/irrationalists.htm ). There he argues that "there are ideas and motives behind an action, and there are methods. These two things are separate. Do we blame tools for the use to which they are put?" He stresses: "I say only a fool refuses to learn lessons about effectiveness from their worst enemies." Needless to say, certain methods imply certain ideas and ends. The Bolshevik creation of a political police force (the Cheka) was very effective in ensuring the "success" of the Russian Revolution. It reflected Bolshevik ideas on the need for centralised power and party rule. It was very effective in ensuring the defence of Bolshevik power. Shame that it helped kill the revolution. Now, could there be an anarchist Cheka? Can this "tool" be effective for anything other than what it was designed for? Of course not.

Similarly for those whom Booth thought had the "right idea." The ideas ("tactics," "methods," "tools") in question were selected because they reflected the politics of the people who used it. They are not tools of liberation. That the actions were carried out by right wing authoritarians should come as no surprise as they reflected the anti-revolutionary nature of their creators. Moreover, they would remain so no matter the professed politics of the perpetrators (just as one-man management did not change its nature when it was inflicted on the Russian workers by the Bolsheviks rather than by the capitalists). But that should be obvious. Sadly, it is not for GA, which confirms my analysis of GA's politics as fundamentally authoritarian. Such actions cannot in any way be part of any possible revolutionary strategy. To argue that they could be shows not only a lack of revolutionary and libertarian politics, but also a lack of common humanity."

Larry O'Hara
Jul 27 2005 12:27

You respond with an irrelevant piece on alleged weaknesses in Steve Booth's perspective on the Bolsheviks. How typical--next minute you'll attack me for wearing trousers, no doubt smile

alibaba
Jul 27 2005 12:40

the piece details part of how GA were criticised for supporting fascist bombings.