Anti-School Defiance - Get Free, Drop Out

Joe Roe
Posts: 160 Joined: 17-05-04
Submitted by Joe Roe on 7 February, 2005 - 19:59.

What are peoples opinions of this getfreedropout.tk and do you think it is posisble to start something like this in the UK and/or find a way to co-operate with them

I think this kind of thing is what the AYN should be directing its energies towards, if indeed it has any.

Anti-school defiance has the potential to be a far reaching thing and in the right context it could be very useful.

3rdseason
Posts: 727 Joined: 19-09-03
8 February, 2005 - 19:03

There are huge problems with schools but I don't think encouraging people to drop out is the answer. Yeah it might seem fun at the time but the kids would most likely end up on adults learning programmes when they're older.

Plus, what are the kids who drop out doing? Yeah there would probably be a few who travel all over the place, read lots, get creative (possibly do lots of crimethinc-esque stuff) but there would also be lots who would end up sleeping all day, watching lots of TV, doing drugs, getting into trouble. I know. Ive been there and done that. Also, a lot of drop outs might just start working which is hardly better than education is it?

I think encouraging pupils to drop out of school is very naive, idealistic and angry. Angry because it sees school in a wholly negative light. It doesnt accept the fact that some teachers really do have a great enthusiasm for their subject. Also it denies the fact that social skills are also learnt in school - you're put together with lots of people from different backgrounds and learn to get by (even if you don't like some of them).

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Reading is hated because of years of useless short stories and imposed novels

Thats crap. I love reading and Im studying english at uni and some of the literature I studied at school and college was awesome. "Goblin Market","An Inspector Calls", "Of Mice and Men" etc.

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history feared because of one-sided textbooks that shorten years into paragraphs

Um "feared"?? Isn't that just slightly melodramatic? I liked history. Yeah sure its biased and some parts are underemphasised but its not THAT bad. And the shortening years into paragraphs bit- WTF!!?? Should each year have an entire encyclopedia brittanicas worth of text? Obviously things have to be made concise.

That website looks painfully like it was written by someone who went to school and did really well but was bullied/shy and so now resents school hugely. He/she also read lots of CrimethInc. (mostly Days of War...) and thought it'd help people liberate themselves by encouraging them to quit school. A couple of years back I probably woulda thought it was great but not now.

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we were sick of having our lives organized by teachers, psychiatrists, parents, cops, and advertisements, so we dropped out of school and began to take our lives back. we found that we were not alone...

Oh well thats nice and vague. Drop out of school, slag off your parents (who most likely love you and want the best for you), hate police and advertising and stop going to therapy. Then you've begun taking back your life and presumably everything will be peachy from then on...

BTW did you manage to sell any of those zines? Your article is going into issue 2 for sure!! embarrassed

wheresmyshoes "Mmm mmmm"
Posts: 1086 Joined: 19-09-03 Location: Bristol
8 February, 2005 - 19:19

I agree with 3rd, it's naive to think kids will drop out of school and just go travelling and get in touch with their inner-capatilist-suppressed selves....or something like that.

If I for one, dropped out of college, I'd be more of a bum than I am now. But with less e.m.a(I'm too lazy to get a job), less time spent with my friends,more lazy, more bored and learn less.

I'm not saying other kids will do that all I'm saying is I would and that site isn't good to encourage kids to drop out.

Get some sort of grades then be badass.

I don't like crimethinc

lucy82 "evolutionary baggage"
Posts: 1806 Joined: 31-05-04
11 February, 2005 - 10:41

on the first day i had to take my kids to start school i hated doing it. it felt like giving them up to a normalising, repressive structure that starts out ok with sand in the nursery and stories but ends up being shoved through the stress of exams on which you are judged before you find your niche in the grinding wheel that is employment for most people.

i left school at 16. i wagged it bigstyle for the last two years. i hated school. i hated the stupid rules and the petty bullying of some teachers against us especially. so i don't doubt that how i felt about sending my kids to school was related to that.

now my youngest daughter is doing her Alevels and shes stressed and not happy and this largely the result of the education machine which will continue into uni if she doesn't jack it in before then or walk out with shit grades because shes had enough. i resent that the happy easy connected person that she was has been buried under all this pressure.

but the problem is pretty much as 3rd and wheresmyshoes are sort of saying. if i don't collaborate with this, whats the alternative? if she walks out now, she will probably just be stuck in some callcentre and partly because i fucked up education to start with, i had a succession of shit jobs and i don't want her to have those experiences if i can help it. so i collude with it and say mum things about getting homework done, even though i can feel the hypocrisy as i say it and why the fuck shouldn't we be allowed to play (whether we're six, sixteen or sixty).

i also know playing the education game and doing ok at the end doesn't guarantee you won't end up in a boring, deadend, drone job. but it does give you maybe a little more choice about what kind of job might let you be yourself a little more given that we all have to live in the way things are.

on the website it says this:

Quote:

A child can pass every test but still be called a failure because s/he did not spend the little time they have off doing homework. A youth can also spend all their time doing homework, and fail because they can't take standardized tests. What is learned here is not whether we are actually learning or not, but whether we are able to produce something that meets imposed abitrary requirements.

i think this is largely true. i'd like to see education being the sharing of knowledge and experiences between generations. (i don't mean older to younger, i mean between). i'd like to see it being revelant to the wider goals of a different society. but within those imposed arbitary requirements history, literature and so many things are interesting even within the way they are currently taught and within that curriculem you can get a grounding for then teaching yourself other histories and other ways of looking at literature.

if you start trying to make these changes by attacking the institutions like schools and psych wards...

Quote:
By attacking the institutions responsible for conditioning and domestication (schools, psych wards, juvenile detention centers), youth liberation strikes at the heart of this alienated society.

then you're totally hitting the wrong people. its not teachers and psychiatric nurses who are any sort of enemy and its ridiculously simplistic and absolutely counter-productive to attack people working in these professions or suggest that that should be done.

don't know about juvenile detention centres though. i don't know anything really about them. but if we're talking about attacking the instituations responsible for conditioning and domestication it really would be hard to know where to stop...

sorry if this is incoherent. i have to rush off now so haven't thought much about what i have written, just wrote it quick.

Joe Roe
Posts: 160 Joined: 17-05-04
13 February, 2005 - 10:17

I think the point has been missed here.

The point is not to simply "drop out" it's about encouraging kids to find new and independent ways to educate themselves, either in or out of their schools.

It is also about standing up against oppression by teachers in terms of restricting certain rights and forcing certain sets of principles on them.

Petitioning schools with anti-school defiance literature could encourage people to start thinking more about their futures.

In Denmark in the 60's University students occupied their universities and set their own democratically voted curriculum where the students teached each other collectivly. Why can we not encourage school/college kids to to the same?

It's a perfect AYN project.

3rdseason
Posts: 727 Joined: 19-09-03
14 February, 2005 - 04:18

I just think you're deluding yourself in thinking that kids are that proactive they would actually do that if they dropped out of school.

wheresmyshoes "Mmm mmmm"
Posts: 1086 Joined: 19-09-03 Location: Bristol
14 February, 2005 - 06:22
Anarchist Tension wrote:
It's a perfect AYN project.

Sorry dude I wouldn't support it, my friend dropped out of college and now he's busting it up in sainsburys no chance.

Joe Roe
Posts: 160 Joined: 17-05-04
14 February, 2005 - 09:49
3rdseason wrote:
I just think you're deluding yourself in thinking that kids are that proactive they would actually do that if they dropped out of school.

So what motivates and inspires you to believe that the workers will throw off their exploitation and create an anarchist society?

Promoting this requires effort of course. People aren't suddenly going to adopt or even accept it, it takes patience and hard work to propogate an idea among people.

Anything is possible, is it not? Otherwise what are we doing?

Joe Roe
Posts: 160 Joined: 17-05-04
14 February, 2005 - 09:51
wheresmyshoes wrote:
Anarchist Tension wrote:
It's a perfect AYN project.

Sorry dude I wouldn't support it, my friend dropped out of college and now he's busting it up in sainsburys no chance.

Your friend is not synonymous with the entire population of young people. He has alternatives; he either doesn't know what they are or can't be bothered to pursue them.

Basically what your saying is you wouldn't support the active persuit of getting young people to fight the domination of school and find alternative means of education and experiences.

You won't support that because your friend works in Sainsbury's? That makes no sense! Why don't you research the alternatives for him and inspire him to take action! That's what anarchism is.

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17788 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
14 February, 2005 - 11:46

hmmm anarchist tension I think your being unfair on wheresmyshoes and your sounding very close to those lifestylers who talk about dropping out of work. Basically if you drop outta school and aren't from a very well of background your options are very limited. Either try and get a trade, exist on the dole, or at some stage go into further education again. Or i suppouse you could try and get a job with no qualifications but that hasn't been viable since my da left school.

i wouldn't feel comfortable cheerleading kids outta school, when im sitting wanting to do a masters. My wee brother has 2 C gcse's to his name and he is going to find it hard getting any sort of decent job, infact i've been on at him to go to tech and get atleast a few other gcse's so he can go on to do a levels or atlleast get a job in the civil service or something.

It's all very well mentally wanking about escaping the tyrannical structures of school but for alot of kids from working class backgrounds school is one way they can actually create more options for themselves. School can be a fucking horrific place for lots of kids but we don't have an alternative infastructure in place to offer anyone dropping out, therefore i think it would be dishonest and irresponsible to convince kids to drop out, especially when school (for all it's shiteness) gave me options that my parents never had.

Joe Roe
Posts: 160 Joined: 17-05-04
14 February, 2005 - 12:41
revol68 wrote:
hmmm anarchist tension I think your being unfair on wheresmyshoes and your sounding very close to those lifestylers who talk about dropping out of work.

I'm not talking about him doing anything. wheresmyshoes said that he couldn't support something like this because his friend works in Sainsbury's as if that was really terrible.

If that's the case there are alternatives. Housing co-operatives, business collectives etc are obtainable by people without money or qualifications if they are prepared to work hard.

This may seem "lifestylie" but so what. it doesn't mean that you have to exclude yourself from class struggle organisations.

The Princes Trust and collective organisations like Catalyst or Radical Routes offer advice, support and more importantly money to start a housing co-op which can be used to start a business, also collectivly owned.

Running a radical bookshop or social space and living in a collectivly owned house is far more agreeable than working in Sainsbury's or, in my opinion, getting a degree.

But it isn't for everyone, I understand that. But if you go into a school and look at the career's advice you will see that it isn't an alternative...

Quote:
Basically if you drop outta school and aren't from a very well of background your options are very limited.

Well, like I said, there are more agreeable options. Obviously they aren't for everyone, but they exist.

Quote:
Either try and get a trade, exist on the dole, or at some stage go into further education again.

If people want to get a trade, or go into further education or go on the dole, that's acceptable. However, claiming that these are the only options is misplaced.

Quote:
i wouldn't feel comfortable cheerleading kids outta school, when im sitting wanting to do a masters.

It's about choice. This idea is an alternative to school. When I was at school, I hated it. I hated the lack of independence and the submissiveness. I wish I had an alternative I knew about. This is all it offers, an idea for an alternative.

Of course if you want to perceiver through all this and you want to be apart of the education system as it is, that is entirely and absolutely acceptable.

Not everyone does though, and for many young people they don't see an alternative when there is one.

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for alot of kids from working class backgrounds school is one way they can actually create more options for themselves.

I agree.

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School can be a fucking horrific place for lots of kids but we don't have an alternative infastructure in place to offer anyone dropping out,

The point would be to create one.

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therefore i think it would be dishonest and irresponsible to convince kids to drop out,

We shouldn't try and convince them no, we should simply propose an alternative.

Quote:
especially when school (for all it's shiteness) gave me options that my parents never had.

Options to do what?

revol68 ""Identity is a dream pathetic in its absurdity. You dream of being yourself when you've nothing better to do""
Posts: 17788 Joined: 23-02-04 Location: Belfast
14 February, 2005 - 13:01

anarchist tension you proposed that we start a campaign to get kids to drop out and "get free" now you are claiming it's a campaign to highlight alternatives. But at the end of the day I think any working class kid who throws away a chance to get a good education (not to mention doss about at uni for a few years) on the basis of some collective pipe dream would be very silly, and certainly someone who did it cause of an ideological allegiance to anarchist diy ethos.

as for options it has given me, well it has given the option to go onto do wanky academic masters, and a wider range of job choices than if i hadn't went, i mean they are all quite shite and alienated but im still in a more priveleged position compared to my parents ever where or what my wee borther is facing at the moment.

at the end of the day the last thing anarchists should be doing is encouraging kids to drop out especially when in truth we can't offer any alternatives, and considering the anarchist movement is full of people within te education sector surely we should be focussed instead on campaigning within education. You know kinda how our answer to labour issues is not to try and create a drop out zone but rather to engage in workplace struggle.

3rdseason
Posts: 727 Joined: 19-09-03
14 February, 2005 - 13:06
Anarchist Tension wrote:
I'm not talking about him doing anything. wheresmyshoes said that he couldn't support something like this because his friend works in Sainsbury's as if that was really terrible.

Wheresmyshoes is a she.

Joe Roe
Posts: 160 Joined: 17-05-04
14 February, 2005 - 14:17
revol68 wrote:
anarchist tension you proposed that we start a campaign to get kids to drop out and "get free"

No, I said it could be a project the AYN should promote.

Quote:
at the end of the day I think any working class kid who throws away a chance to get a good education (not to mention doss about at uni for a few years) on the basis of some collective pipe dream would be very silly,

A collective pipe dream? In what sense is this a pipe dream? You work for your masters. I mean you get up everyday and you think and work towards achieving those initials after your name..Why is that any less of a dream than working towards achieving buying a house collectivly or starting a collective business. People do it all the time! Just like all those people who get Masters degree's.

Any person who wants to get an education should do that, but I also think that for those who don't the anarchist movement should be organising an alternative which is extremely real, it exists, it happens, and there are options.

I don't see anything wrong in promoting and organising that.

Quote:
and certainly someone who did it cause of an ideological allegiance to anarchist diy ethos.

That doesn't really have any relevance.

Quote:
as for options it has given me, well it has given the option to go onto do wanky academic masters, and a wider range of job choices than if i hadn't went, i mean they are all quite shite and alienated but im still in a more priveleged position

Privileged position? What does that mean?

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at the end of the day the last thing anarchists should be doing is encouraging kids to drop out

Fine. But we should be encouraging alternatives.

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especially when in truth we can't offer any alternatives

I'm not lying, there are actually alternatives.

Quote:
and considering the anarchist movement is full of people within te education sector surely we should be focussed instead on campaigning within education.

Why are they mutually exclusive?

Quote:
You know kinda how our answer to labour issues is not to try and create a drop out zone but rather to engage in workplace struggle.

And what is our alternative for those people who want to drop out of work? Are we supposed to encourage them to get shitty dead end jobs they hate because it serves the cause?

wheresmyshoes "Mmm mmmm"
Posts: 1086 Joined: 19-09-03 Location: Bristol
22 February, 2005 - 23:22
Anarchist Tension wrote:
wheresmyshoes wrote:
Anarchist Tension wrote:
It's a perfect AYN project.

Sorry dude I wouldn't support it, my friend dropped out of college and now he's busting it up in sainsburys no chance.

Your friend is not synonymous with the entire population of young people. He has alternatives; he either doesn't know what they are or can't be bothered to pursue them.

Basically what your saying is you wouldn't support the active persuit of getting young people to fight the domination of school and find alternative means of education and experiences.

You won't support that because your friend works in Sainsbury's? That makes no sense! Why don't you research the alternatives for him and inspire him to take action! That's what anarchism is.

I'm just using him as example, ofcourse I've tried to get him back in to college or do something better than working at a supermarket.

I wouldn't support this because I know a lot of kids who are barely in any kind of education due to motivation, money or grades. Or in some cases all three.

It would be very nice to just drop out and go fight the good fight, but in reality it's a lot different. Maybe that sounds really narsasistic but it's what happens. I got 5 cs and b in gcses the rest were gs and es, so it was quite easy to get into college to do my Alevels(since most colleges take you on 5 gcses) but a lot of my friends didn't get good enough grades, not because they didn't work just some people don't do well in exams, I know I don't, 3 out of my 6 pass grades were art subjects or easy-fucking re. So doing extra courses or retaking gcses is what's keeping them from shitty full-time low wage boring jobs, and there is no way in hell I'd encourage them or other people to go seek alternartives, because they're really aren't any(well part from joining the army)And yes, being anarachists, we should create alternartives, but right now I don't think encouraging kids to drop-out is how to build an anarchist society. But that's just my personal opinion.

And plus this drop-out of school thing has manged to bypass a very important reason for kids to stay in education; Educational Maintenence Allowance. I get £30 a week for going in, no stacking shelves, no photocopying and no making tea! All I have to do is turn up on time,learn new stuff and hang out with my friends and I get £120 a month and £100 bonus every other month. That's £220 for two months. And for the super keen kids who get 95% attendence after 5 months they're entitled to £500!!!!(Though I unfornaturly didn't get it because I didn't get the 95%:()But all in all that's £720 on top of any part-time job people might have.

So I stand by what I said. I wouldn't and won't support this, I need the education.

Not everyone has parents who can pay for them to go off to India to find themselves. Save that one for my gap year.

Jason Cortez "Wrong on all the crucial issues"
Posts: 1472 Joined: 14-11-04 Location: Deptford, South East London.
23 February, 2005 - 10:29

It's quite possible for teenagers to drop out and get an education. They can even get any qualifications they feel are nessacary or desirable.

Shit they can even read books on how to http://www.lowryhousepublishers.com/TeenageLiberationHandbook.htm

The stite was obivivously done by teenagers for teenagers, so if they confuse teachers and doctors for the repressive apparatus (IMO not so B&W) give them some slack. Has anyone attempted a dialogue with them, surely this is something AYN could do, without general agreement on the desirability of dropping out.

And anyhow why's it so bad to do furthur education later on? By which time you usually have a much clearer idea of what you really want to do.

wheresmyshoes "Mmm mmmm"
Posts: 1086 Joined: 19-09-03 Location: Bristol
23 February, 2005 - 12:28

I read the extracts from that book and all it did was repeat itself over and over again. It gave me no ideas as to how I'm going to get qualifications by "unschooling" maybe that's in a later bit of the book that's not on the site. Plus the book is missing out the factor of people's parents, "oh yeah sure don't go to school".

I've got nothing against people doing F.E at a later date, do F.E whenever or never, I just think all this "let's drop-out of school and discover the world" stuff is all very well for people who 1. have the parents who'll let them, 2. have the money and 3. be okay with the fact they might not have many if any qualifications.

I mean sheesh, education we might aswell use it to our advantage.

All in all this just says to me lifestylist wank.

Jason Cortez "Wrong on all the crucial issues"
Posts: 1472 Joined: 14-11-04 Location: Deptford, South East London.
23 February, 2005 - 23:37

There is stuff in the book about getting qualifications.

You don't need to be well off, that's a myth.

You're confusing education with schooling they don't neccasarily overlap.

A major problem, for many people, leaving school is that they leave without qualifications.

Can't see how a person taking control over their education can be reduced to "lifestylist wank". "I mean sheesh, education we might aswell use it to our advantage".

Your point about the parents is a very good one. It would be difficult to imagine how to get round this problem, without leaving home. Not a very good option for young teenagers usually.

wheresmyshoes "Mmm mmmm"
Posts: 1086 Joined: 19-09-03 Location: Bristol
25 February, 2005 - 16:40

Ah well fair enough if there is info about qualifications in the book.

But to be honest from my experiences and from people I know leaving the school system whilst you're doing important exams or before isn't a very smart move. Because however experienced you become and learn new skills, hardly anyone is going to want to take you over someone who's got the paperwork. And I still think money is a big factor, if your parents don't have the funds and you want to bum around outside of school you're gonna want money, you could get a paperround though perhaps.

Basically in the end I reckon half of these people will just go back into the system at a later date because they need the paperwork. So why put off the enivitable? Just go to school, have a laugh with your friends, work enough to get a few c's and then you're homefree to go find yourself in Asia.

RiotKitten
Posts: 8 Joined: 23-08-04
7 March, 2005 - 23:36

....I've been reading through the posts, i guess it's a tough one...

I just wanted to give a more optimistic example, as i understand drop outs and work, sainsburys etc... my boyfriend dropped out of school when he was 12 simply because he didn't like being told what to do etc,and the school environment wasn't right for him. For sure he doesn't have a single qualification to his name...instead he taughgt himself web/graphic design/ put on hardcore, punk shows and did loads of shitty jobs in between (barwork, shopwork etc)... he also got really involved in animal rights and got a whole lot of life experience etc.

There is a lot of risk invovled in doing what you want to do, upsetting family, friends...i mean I'm sure we've all experienced how hard it is not to conform. But now he's just got a job for youth campaigner for VIVA! in bristol, promoting veganism to teens etc.

Whether you drop out, or do your masters, i don't think it matters. i think what matters is that you're really doing what you want. Some people get loads out of studying, others don't but with the AYN I guess we should offer the alternatives and everything inbetween.

so that's my blag