fucking PC gone mad (a rant thread)
Jun 18 2009 21:32
#122
Haha thanks for the laugh!
Jun 18 2009 22:09
#123
revol68 wrote:
The worse thing is that this crap does give some creditability to those that criticise libcom.
see and here i thought it was the culture promoted by your vitriolic bullshit antics. my mistake.
Jun 18 2009 22:11
#124
To be fair, the lad culture on libcommunity is nothing to do with the leprechaun. 
Jun 18 2009 22:26
#125
Jun 18 2009 22:36
#126
revol68 wrote:
vanilla.ice.baby wrote:
they have seen loads of cases where jobs are basically reserved for black, asian, or women candidatesAnd the problem with this is what?
one page later...
revol68 wrote:
I'm opposed to positive discrimination
now i'm sure you're going to thrash about a bit about how this is all a perfectly consistent argument, but for the hell of it i'll indulge...
revol68 wrote:
As for opposing all forms of discrimination, well sorry that's liberal bullshit, infact it's worse than liberal bullshit, it's an attempt to paint out the hierarchies and power relations that run across society with a notion of a 'blind' bourgeois 'equality'.
actually, i advocated "consistent opposition to gender & ethnic discrimination whether 'positive' or 'negative.'" there's nothing liberal about that, demands to be treated equally have been and remain an important part of the workers movement since they are struggles against hierarchies and divisions in the class. if you actually disagree with me, rather than simply pursuing this rather tiresome passive nihlism you seem to have adopted; when are gender and ethnic discrimination not to be opposed then?
And in case anyone missed it, now i'm aware there's no positive discrimination involved in this application process it doesn't merit a rant, it's just the usual liberal figleaf which barely merits comment.
Jun 18 2009 22:42
#127
Bob Savage wrote:
Given that firefighters don't only fight fires, wouldn't it actually be a NECESSITY for community cohesion to have targets for how many ethnic minorities and women get the job? like with the police, or in nursing... if certain groups are going to feel alienated or like they can't communicate with whites or men, isn't it a good thing to even straight up say 'WE MIGHT HIRE A BLACK BEFORE YOU SOZ'?
the whole problem with this line of thought is it assumes an automatic commonality between 'blacks' and other 'blacks', 'whites' and other 'whites' etc, i.e. it completely reifies categories we should be opposing as illegitimate. now if you're talking about fluency in minority langauges or something, that's a specific skillset as opposed to an identity.
Jun 18 2009 23:22
#128
Joseph Kay wrote:
Bob Savage wrote:
Given that firefighters don't only fight fires, wouldn't it actually be a NECESSITY for community cohesion to have targets for how many ethnic minorities and women get the job? like with the police, or in nursing... if certain groups are going to feel alienated or like they can't communicate with whites or men, isn't it a good thing to even straight up say 'WE MIGHT HIRE A BLACK BEFORE YOU SOZ'?the whole problem with this line of thought is it assumes an automatic commonality between 'blacks' and other 'blacks', 'whites' and other 'whites' etc, i.e. it completely reifies categories we should be opposing as illegitimate. now if you're talking about fluency in minority langauges or something, that's a specific skillset as opposed to an identity.
yeah but just because these divisions are socially constructed doesn't mean that they don't exist. and if it it's going to benefit the job more by having a black woman than a white one, in the current society we live in, how is that a problem?
Jun 18 2009 23:51
#129
Quote:
if you actually disagree with me, rather than simply pursuing this rather tiresome passive nihlism you seem to have adopted; when are gender and ethnic discrimination not to be opposed then?
Seeing suppoused anarchists and communists going on rants about fair employment blurbs undermining their own career oppurtunities by giving the job to some inferior woman or ethnic minority does tend to engender a certain nihilistic mindset.
As for dishonestly trying to make out I contradicted myself, you might want to include the sentences that followed those statements that make clear in what sense I have a problem with positive discrimination and in what context I don't or at least don't think communists should give two flying fucks.
I gave you an example of positive discrimination for comphrensive pupils over public school pupils in university places, I don't actually have a problem with that beyond the obvious fact it in some way implies that issues of class can be dealt with by getting more kids from a working class background into uni. Another example would be more male primary school teachers, or more male nurses or care assistants, likewise Bob Savages example of more black firemen.
Jun 18 2009 23:58
#130
and let's not forget actors.
Jun 19 2009 00:19
#131
Joseph Kay wrote:
Choccy wrote:
in my experience, anyone who does engage in pissing and moaning about these sorts of caveats is a bigoted cunt.so am i being a bigoted cunt, or is it just that i'm a little pissed off to wait 18 months for a 10-day application window in which the absence of a dark-coloured vagina could consign me to 18 more months of tedious office shit?
This is one of the single most disgusting things I've ever heard anyone calling themselves a communist say.
You really should be fucking ashamed of yourself.
Jun 19 2009 00:25
#132
weeler wrote:
Alan wrote:
I've been trying to get work for ages...
Sweeping chimneys maybe?Also, it might take more than asking around a few bars for fuck sake. Cunts like you expect jobs to fall into their laps, probably because everything else in life has.
to be honest this pretty much reflects exactly where this bullshit righteous sense of entitlement comes from - we can't all have gone to public school or have parents that own a factory
Jun 19 2009 00:40
#133
Choccy wrote:
Joseph Kay wrote:
Choccy wrote:
in my experience, anyone who does engage in pissing and moaning about these sorts of caveats is a bigoted cunt.so am i being a bigoted cunt, or is it just that i'm a little pissed off to wait 18 months for a 10-day application window in which the absence of a dark-coloured vagina could consign me to 18 more months of tedious office shit?
This is one of the single most disgusting things I've ever heard anyone calling themselves a communist say.
You really should be fucking ashamed of yourself.
I can't believe I missed this, I'm not seeing any nuanced communist critique of liberal tokenism, all I'm seeing is a lot of self pitying bile because you are worried you won't get a position you think you are entitled to.
Like choccy said it is actually disgusting, I'd slap my wee bro upside the head if he said shit like that, I shouldn't expect to see it from an admin on an anarcho communist forum.
Jun 19 2009 01:19
#134
is this massive pile of AIDS still going? Fuck!
Jun 19 2009 01:47
#135
jweidner wrote:
revol68 wrote:
The worse thing is that this crap does give some creditability to those that criticise libcom.see and here i thought it was the culture promoted by your vitriolic bullshit antics. my mistake.
I'm many things but I'm not laddish.
Jun 19 2009 05:09
#136
Choccy wrote:
Joseph Kay wrote:
Choccy wrote:
in my experience, anyone who does engage in pissing and moaning about these sorts of caveats is a bigoted cunt.so am i being a bigoted cunt, or is it just that i'm a little pissed off to wait 18 months for a 10-day application window in which the absence of a dark-coloured vagina could consign me to 18 more months of tedious office shit?
This is one of the single most disgusting things I've ever heard anyone calling themselves a communist say.
You really should be fucking ashamed of yourself.
that would be the logic of positive discrimination. as it happens, the applications are anonymised so it's not an issue.
revol68 wrote:
I gave you an example of positive discrimination for comphrensive pupils over public school pupils in university places
well done, that's clearly an example of "gender and ethnic discrimination." what next, citing picket line scuffles as an example of acceptable gender/racial violence? 
Jun 19 2009 07:35
#137
Joseph Kay, I think the worrying thing was your interpretation of the "we welcome applications from...etc" snippet in your application info. And it doesn't really matter where you're coming from, the above quote is still shocking.
Jun 19 2009 08:08
#138
revol68 wrote:
Another example would be more male primary school teachers, or more male nurses or care assistants, likewise Bob Savages example of more black firemen.
Hmm, having worked in care for a few years now, I've got to say, the "We need more male staff to provide personal care to male patients/residents" thing is all kinds of problematic.
Jun 19 2009 09:41
#139
Joseph Kay wrote:
vanilla.ice.baby wrote:
What pisses me off is when I go for a job, and they Oh sorry no vaccancies then some poles walk in and the special polish speaking agency worker gets up to welcome them in and find them a job straight away - I've seen that happen loadspresumably this is satire?
I was exaggerating for a reason. I've seen it happen twice in two different agencies, in two different towns, in one case it was me and a black lad that lost out, and in the other me and another white bloke. I've heard about it happening elsewhere, and I think it's credible, from the sources - most of whom didn't use it as an opportunity for racism, more utter hopeless bewilderment.
The point though is the conclusion other people draw when they see it happen - immigrants get the jobs, we get chucked on the scrapheap.
Meanwhile liberals say "eastern europeans are getting the jobs", we're too lazy to do, the left are saying "they're good for the economy, and let them all in it doesn't affect us", the ultra left are saying "don't even discuss it", and the far right are saying "yes there is a problem, and we have the solution."
There's a problem somewhere.
Jun 19 2009 09:54
#140
It's probably your comprehension of things; unlike the other lot, we realise it's capitalism that is the problem.
Jun 19 2009 11:26
#141
Refused wrote:
Joseph Kay, I think the worrying thing was your interpretation of the "we welcome applications from...etc" snippet in your application info.
i think you're right that that's what people are reacting to, but my interpretation was based on three things: (1) singling out of specific ethnicity/sex groups, (2) requiring photos, (3) an (erroneous) assumption that the process was unblinded. like a true bigot i investigated further then on discovering i was mistaken about (3) said that it removed the reasons for my rant. i don't think the assumption of (3) was bigotted since most job applications i've been through aren't ethnically or sexually blinded.
things i didn't mention and so nobody could be expected to know are things i've been told by a HR person for a public sector temp job i'd applied for (a woman who'd failed the FRS medical, fwiw), and conversations with FRS staff that said they were really looking to recruit women. these almost certainly fed into my wrong assumption.
now as it happens on yet further investigation the way they look to recruit more women is by doing things like having workshops for women on the application process to make sure they make the most of their applications. that's eminiently more sensible and constructive than positive discrimination, and i clearly overestimated the PC bullshittery of the public sector. it's still surprising posters here have come out to the right of public sector managers by seeing no problem with racial or sexual discrimination though, and even taken the bizarre PC line that anyone opposed to positive discrimination must be a 'nazi.'
Refused wrote:
And it doesn't really matter where you're coming from, the above quote is still shocking.
i could make exactly the same point in emotionless, intellectual PC prose and nobody would bat an eyelid. opposition to differential treatment based on (psuedo-)biological categories is a staple of communist politics.
Jun 19 2009 11:28
#142
Yeah this thread is very depressing.
Joseph, you seem to be attempting to say now that there isn't a problem with that being stated in the application, and that is not bad positive discrimination, which could disadvantage you, but merely that it is liberal tokenism.
But you seem to be attacking those of us who disagreed with you for doing so before we "knew" that the photographs were anonymised, and so for all we knew we were defending positive discrimination.
Well sorry, but that's bullshit. I knew that I wasn't positive discrimination taking place, firstly because it is illegal, and in a major, high profile, national public service, and secondly because that sort of thing only happens in the invented world of Daily Mail Island, and BNP propaganda.
The idea of the UK as this country run by liberal gays who want to dole out to money and jobs to asylum seekers, blacks, the disabled, and keep good white Middle England down is absolute bollocks. As you well know.
Jack, you've done a couple of stupid one-liner comments here, inventing a straw man position for people arguing the same point as me, while completely ignoring the dodgy shit from Joseph (which he subsequently admitted was wrong) and vanilla. This makes you look like a twat, as well as agreeing with Joseph's initial position which he acknowledges was wrong.
If you actually disagree with something I have said, respond to it, rather than coming up with straw man bullshit.
vanilla.ice.baby wrote:
What pisses me off is when I go for a job, and they Oh sorry no vaccancies then some poles walk in and the special polish speaking agency worker gets up to welcome them in and find them a job straight away - I've seen that happen loads.
at least you admit this is bollocks:
Quote:
I was exaggerating for a reason. I've seen it happen twice
firstly, why would you lie about how many times you have supposedly seen this? What agenda does that serve? Secondly, I don't think I even believe this.
Can you explain to me how it happened exactly? You went to an agency, i.e. walked in the office to ask about vacancies, which you did then they told you know, but then you stayed in the office, waited for some Polish people to come in, then waited around while they spoke to the agency worker, until you saw that the agency worker actually gave them jobs, which presumably you could understand despite the fact they were all speaking Polish. And then you left the agency? And this has happened to you twice?
I find that quite strange. In seven years of me doing agency work, I never once went into one to ask if they had work, I just phoned up or looked at their website. You could probably save some time like this...
Quote:
I know someone who works for a local council and they have an unofficial policy of always giving certain (good) jobs to ethnic candidates to bump their figures irrespective of ability.
right, well this is something we can do something about, as this would be illegal race discrimination. Give me the name of the Council and I'll look into it through the union. I work for a local council, and have helped with recruitment on a number of occasions, and in my experience nothing like this ever happens, apart from in the Daily Mail and in BNP propaganda.
vanilla.ice.baby wrote:
revol68 wrote:
So the recession kicks in, jobs become harder to find and those WASP male anarchists who argued against racism and allowing the working class to be pitted against each other along ethnic, national or gender lines start whinging about fair employment blurbs and legislation.I'm not a WASP and I'm not moaning about legislation.
I have seen blatent pro eastern european hiring policies in action, young black men in London are particular victims of it from my experience, though outside London it is the white working class who generally suffer.
what are these supposedly pro Eastern European hiring policies then?
Do you think that a lot of places have pro-white hiring policies? Or do you think that workplaces are free from racism now?
Quote:
I know people who work in local government in the equalities department and they have seen loads of cases where jobs are basically reserved for black, asian, or women candidates - and because they are so desperate to meet their targets.
above you said you knew one person. So is it one or is it more than one? Anyway, like I said if you give me the names of the Council/s, and ideally the people who have the knowledge of these illegal and race discriminatory practices, and I will take it up. If you don't let me know them, I'll have to assume you are "exaggerating" like with the Polish comments above...
Saying that posts in local government are reserved for women candidates seems particularly bizarre, seeing as local government workers are about 70% women, and men are massively underrepresented.
Jun 19 2009 11:33
#143
vanilla.ice.baby wrote:
I was exaggerating for a reason. I've seen it happen twice in two different agencies, in two different towns, in one case it was me and a black lad that lost out, and in the other me and another white bloke. I've heard about it happening elsewhere, and I think it's credible, from the sources - most of whom didn't use it as an opportunity for racism, more utter hopeless bewilderment.The point though is the conclusion other people draw when they see it happen - immigrants get the jobs, we get chucked on the scrapheap.
Meanwhile liberals say "eastern europeans are getting the jobs", we're too lazy to do, the left are saying "they're good for the economy, and let them all in it doesn't affect us", the ultra left are saying "don't even discuss it", and the far right are saying "yes there is a problem, and we have the solution."
There's a problem somewhere.
well historically bosses have pitted different ethnic/linguistic groups of workers against one another do drive down wages and conditions. it may well be happening today, but i'm wary of anecdotal evidence for obvious reasons. clearly it needs to be discussed, and the class response (of solidarity to level-up conditions) needs to be posed. for all revol's bluster about LOR, this was something that developed there out of the original much-hyped 'british jobs...' crap, and whether we like it or not the SP probably played a role in that (and of course subsequently harnessed it into their own nationalist 'no2eu' electoralism). fwiw the current wildcat seems to be over the use of subcontracting to casualise the workforce, with no discernable national content (hence the relative media disinterest compared to last time).
Jun 19 2009 11:42
#144
A big thing that some people here seem to be forgetting, is that all these "liberal PC" measures to try to address discrimination were and are pushed for by the workers movement!
Joseph, you say that the way to eradicate discrimination is through struggle, yes that is correct. But workers, through their struggles, have forced the introduction of some measures to help eradicate institutionalised racism - which harms all workers ultimately.
Of course, none of the measures are enough in themselves to eradicate all racism, but it doesn't mean that they are bad.
Especially things like stating that applications from underrepresented groups are particularly "welcome" that would attract more applications from underrepresented groups. This would mean that more people from underrepresented groups will be recruited, without the need for any positive discrimination in the actual application process.
A lot of people from those groups wouldn't even apply for lots of jobs, because they would assume, rightly in many cases that they may be discriminated against.
I have a disability. I wouldn't bother applying for jobs in 90% of places, especially small private companies, because I know that I would just get the sack, because I can't work as fast as many non-disabled workers. But if it was the type of workplace where they had been forced (by workers struggle in the past) to adopt measures to treat workers more fairly, such as much of the public sector or some large private companies, then I would be much more likely to apply. Putting statements like that helps identify these types of areas.
And Jack don't use your strawman "oh I think this will stop racism", of course it won't, but it is not a bad or anti-working class thing in the slightest, and is not something any communist should have cause to complain about.
Jun 19 2009 11:45
#145
Steven. wrote:
Well sorry, but that's bullshit. I knew that I wasn't positive discrimination taking place, firstly because it is illegal, and in a major, high profile, national public service, and secondly because that sort of thing only happens in the invented world of Daily Mail Island, and BNP propaganda.
your faith in law is touching. i'll assume our posts crossed; i explain my (errant) assumption in post #141 to Refused above. to be absolutely clear, i don't oppose using the law to challenge racially or sexually discriminating policies, in fact i think it's a good tactic so long as it's pursued on the class terrain of (threatening) direct action as opposed to the bourgeois terrain of the courts (which often turns victories into defeats). my objection is to the idea that because something is illegal, it doesn't happen. now you have far more first-hand experience of the public sector than me, but my skepticism is based on the persistance of de facto unequal pay despite its de jure illegality (unlawfulness?).
Jun 19 2009 11:52
#146
Steven. wrote:
I find that quite strange. In seven years of me doing agency work, I never once went into one to ask if they had work, I just phoned up or looked at their website. You could probably save some time like this...
You've clearly never gone for warehouse or construction work in an agency then, you generally just walk in off the street. It is different for admin work of course.
Jun 19 2009 11:53
#147
I've been into an agency office for warehouse work, it's not unusual.
Jun 19 2009 12:09
#148
Steven. wrote:
Jack, you've done a couple of stupid one-liner comments here
This is libcommunity, not ABC.
Quote:
inventing a straw man position for people arguing the same point as me, while completely ignoring the dodgy shit from Joseph (which he subsequently admitted was wrong) and vanilla.
Please show me where i agreed with this? I agree with JK's annoyance with the shit liberal tokenism, but other than that i restricted myself to disagreeing with people attacking him. Hence i've not commented either way on the stuff he said either way - altho In so far as what he said was 'pc is tokenistic shit' and 'positive discrimination is wrong' then i agree with him.
And i thing it's pretty rich to complain i'm ignoring dodgy shit from Jk when revol saying he had no problem with racial quotas.
Quote:
If you actually disagree with something I have said, respond to it, rather than coming up with straw man bullshit.
If this was a thread off of libcommunity and was a real debate over race and pc and not JK being pissed off at shit liberalism and having a rant i'd have either argued (or not bothered). But it's not. It was just some people saying stuff i thought was stupid, so i made snide remarks. As is par the course. I'm sure if it does come up again as an actual proper debate, then i'm sure i'd develop an argument.
Jun 19 2009 12:36
#149
I agree with revol and Steven
If some private school kid came in here and made a thread about how unfair it was that comprehensive pupils were getting some positive discrimination in getting into University it would be seen as a joke
I fail to see how this is particulary different, and even worse it sounds like something out of stormfront
Jun 19 2009 12:59
#150
D wrote:
I agree with revol and StevenIf some private school kid came in here and made a thread about how unfair it was that comprehensive pupils were getting some positive discrimination in getting into University it would be seen as a joke
I fail to see how this is particulary different
because races and sexes arent like classes. the point is to eliminate struggles between the former and aggravate struggles between the latter. there's a very big reason this thread wasn't about private school. and unlike revol, steven isn't supporting racial quotas but saying they're illegal and should be fought against.
D wrote:
even worse it sounds like something out of stormfront
because posters on stormfront have a principled opposition to all racial discrimination? 
i would just like to take this opportunity to bring up something else i am not happy about the black man getting
http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhIyPuH68MLxNA2Zeh