Gerry Robinson in the NHS Tonight 9pm BBC2
Jan 8 2007 20:32
Hi peeps
V. quickie cos my latest client has just arrived so must go.. didn't get a chance to attempt the TV Guide for this week cos -ironically - I had some time-consuming NHS shite to deal with on a personal level at the end of last week.. this prob. would have featured..sounds q. amusing..a business guru who is used to peeps doing as he says struggles with NHS bureaucracy and torpitude..parts 2 and 3 on Tue and Wed..i am taping it and will post later..let me know what your thoughts are..
LOVE
LW X
Jan 8 2007 22:38
#2
That's because hierarchy and lack of communication in the heaalth service is a really good thing, it means the people who know best don't have to listen to the little people, who don't really get it.
Jan 8 2007 22:45
#3
It was pretty comical when he went to a group of nurses and asked them with a straight face why don't just work longer hours.
Jan 8 2007 22:46
#4
yes.. my sis uses the phrase "defensive medicine" to mean the deliberate promulgation of systems and hierarchies in which patients are actually prevented from or hampered in getting, the treatment needed...could give a coupla practical examples but must get back to work..taped this prog and will watch it and comment on it tonight or tomorrow..
good to have you back, Zobag 
- it has been too long, girlfriend...
Jan 8 2007 22:46
#5
Pah. Nurses are dirty layabouts. They should work faster and harder.
Jan 8 2007 22:53
#6
Damn only caught the end of this after seeing this thread. Looks interesting in an annoying way, will try to watch the others - cheers LW!
Jan 8 2007 23:15
#7
magnifico wrote:
Damn only caught the end of this after seeing this thread. Looks interesting in an annoying way, will try to watch the others - cheers LW!
hey that's what i thought exactly!!!! Will try and do the TV Guide for the next week starting Sat this Wed/Thu which will contain any like broadcasting gems....if this passes muster with the admin peeps this time of course... 
Jan 9 2007 00:01
#8
Can't youse all just take the Rod Liddle line on this - the guy might be right, the guy mught be wrong; can't we just leave it at that?
Jan 9 2007 00:19
#9
xConorx wrote:
Can't youse all just take the Rod Liddle line on this - the guy might be right, the guy mught be wrong; can't we just leave it at that?
;)
Yeah reckon there are a fair few Liddle fans on here... and now they have a new guru.. 
Jan 10 2007 20:44
#10
Bump
Cos the final part is on in, like, 20 mins...and i found it q. amusing in parts 1 and 2 how - as expected!! - G. is just not used to peeps not taking up his ideas immediately..and at least pretending to go along with it and be enthusiastic!! Tonight he tackles the Chief Exec - a v. slow, dull, man... 
who keeps making excuses not to tackle anything or address anything...he just wants to shuffle along not doing anything so he can survive and collect his huge "corporate" pay-off... 
Jan 10 2007 20:59
#11
Poor old Gerry - if only he could run a hospital without any doctors in it.....
Jan 10 2007 21:03
#12
magnifico wrote:
Poor old Gerry - if only he could run a hospital without any doctors in it.....
He'd do it if he could...
Jan 10 2007 21:03
#13
magnifico wrote:
Poor old Gerry - if only he could run a hospital without any doctors in it.....
He'd do it if he could...
Jan 11 2007 02:39
#14
Hey so did anyone else catch all these or just one or two??Magnifico, see what i mean about Brian James, Rotherham Hospital Chief Executive, being a v. dull man who wants to avoid doing any useful decision-making and would rather avoid all his staff and squirrel himself away in his office eking out his existence til pension/payoff day..to think he has the exact same name as legendary (ex) Damned guitarist...who would you rather go out for a drink with..ooh..choices... 
Love
LW X
PS Serge
If you did anything sexual at any time with the latter pictured BJ..I am jealous.. but not if it is the former one..
Jan 11 2007 17:37
#15
I guess the most annoying thing about that last episode was that he actiually seemed to come up with some quite common sense ideas and seemed genuinely motivated by patient care rather than simply improving the hospital's financial position - however the way the programme is set up made it look like only a 'businessman' could think of these things, because they are somehow inherently more efficient and intelligent than anyone else. So it kind of makes a case for the privatisation of the NHS on these grounds alone, without addressing any effects of increased competition and private finance within the service.
There was that bit where they worked out how to increase the amount of theatre work done only for the PCT to tell them that they wouldn't be able to afford to pay for it - this highlights the insanity of having all the different parts of the NHS billing and invoicing each other and the role of this pseudo-market system as a form of unofficial rationing, but it's all so bloody complicated that I'm not sure whether this would've come across to the average viewer.
Jan 11 2007 17:47
#16
magnifico wrote:
There was that bit where they worked out how to increase the amount of theatre work done only for the PCT to tell them that they wouldn't be able to afford to pay for it - this highlights the insanity of having all the different parts of the NHS billing and invoicing each other and the role of this pseudo-market system as a form of unofficial rationing, but it's all so bloody complicated that I'm not sure whether this would've come across to the average viewer.
I've been there and I barely understand it.
Jan 11 2007 19:40
#17
magnifico wrote:
I guess the most annoying thing about that last episode was that he actiually seemed to come up with some quite common sense ideasyeah he did (i take it you mean Gerry, not Brian..??
and seemed genuinely motivated by patient care rather than simply improving the hospital's financial position -
yeah i think he is pretty decent and humane - i have seen him on other business progs - tho it is easy to be pleasant and warm if you are as fabulously wealthy and influential as him..having said this I much prefer dealing with a capitalist like G who is honest about their motivations than someone like Brian/other seniors in the "caring professions" who pretend to be doing this "for the common good" and really just is motivated by the need for his own security and power base anyways..
however the way the programme is set up made it look like only a 'businessman' could think of these things, because they are somehow inherently more efficient and intelligent than anyone else.
of course - there is no way G would allow the prog to be shown if it didn't show him in a good light..on the other hand lets face it he IS more efficient and intelligent than the CEO - but this is more an argument for better management in the NHS than one for privatisation....
So it kind of makes a case for the privatisation of the NHS on these grounds alone, without addressing any effects of increased competition and private finance within the service.
See my point above..
There was that bit where they worked out how to increase the amount of theatre work done only for the PCT to tell them that they wouldn't be able to afford to pay for it - this highlights the insanity of having all the different parts of the NHS billing and invoicing each other and the role of this pseudo-market system as a form of unofficial rationing, but it's all so bloody complicated that I'm not sure whether this would've come across to the average viewer.
I dunno i think most viewers are aware the NHS is run in a weird, illogical Kafkaesque way, tbh...Good he went to see Hewitt.. she really is a dreadful woman isn't she??? Saying it is not her resp. what happens to the funding..it is good G picked up on that later when he said.."The govt say there are no strings attached to the funding.. but it comes with a raft of strings, lets face it.."
The bottom line here psychologically is that noone wants to take responsibility for anything in the upper echelons but they want the power, wealth and status commensurate with this level of responsibility - to which i say - fuck you!!! this is one of the main reasons I am an anarchist...
Love
LW X
Jan 11 2007 19:54
#18
Lone Wolf wrote:
i say - fuck you!!! this is one of the main reasons I am an anarchist...
punk
Jan 11 2007 20:10
#19
Joseph K. wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote:
i say - fuck you!!! this is one of the main reasons I am an anarchist...punk
;)
Jan 11 2007 20:31
#20
LW wrote:
I dunno i think most viewers are aware the NHS is run in a weird, illogical Kafkaesque way
Sure, but the impression given by both this programme and the media generally is that it is run in this way because it is some kind of lumbering public sector dinosaur that could do with a healthy dose of market discipline. The reality is that the NHS is being run in a perfectly logical way if your aim is nto turn it into a load of individual private enterprises competing with each other for 'customers'. They take the crap which NHS market reforms have caused (such as the PCT telling the hospital not to reduce waiting lists because it would cause them to go bust) and use this as an argument for yet more market reforms. The Daily Mail's the worst. Grrrr
LW wrote:
The bottom line here psychologically is that noone wants to take responsibility for anything in the upper echelons but they want the power, wealth and status commensurate with this level of responsibility
I don't think there's anything this deep going on. The reality is that they don't want there to BE any upper echelons in the NHS, because they don't want there to be an NHS at all. All gov't NHS policy at the moment is directed towards privatising/marketising and selling off any parts that can be profitable, and running down/closing any parts that can't. But they do it in such a sly way, with complicated structures and confusing language, that you have to put in quite a lot of study before you can work out what's actually happening.
Jan 11 2007 21:47
#21
magnifico wrote:
LW wrote:
I dunno i think most viewers are aware the NHS is run in a weird, illogical Kafkaesque waySure, but the impression given by both this programme and the media generally is that it is run in this way because it is some kind of lumbering public sector dinosaur that could do with a healthy dose of market discipline. The reality is that the NHS is being run in a perfectly logical way if your aim is nto turn it into a load of individual private enterprises competing with each other for 'customers'. They take the crap which NHS market reforms have caused (such as the PCT telling the hospital not to reduce waiting lists because it would cause them to go bust) and use this as an argument for yet more market reforms. The Daily Mail's the worst. Grrrr
Yeah agreed - i still think some peeps have got pretty strong views against NHS privatisation tho - despite the best/worst efforts of the media...however that doesn't mean, sadly, much can be done about it... pre-revolution of course...
LW wrote:
The bottom line here psychologically is that noone wants to take responsibility for anything in the upper echelons but they want the power, wealth and status commensurate with this level of responsibilityI don't think there's anything this deep going on. The reality is that they don't want there to BE any upper echelons in the NHS, because they don't want there to be an NHS at all. All gov't NHS policy at the moment is directed towards privatising/marketising and selling off any parts that can be profitable, and running down/closing any parts that can't. But they do it in such a sly way, with complicated structures and confusing language, that you have to put in quite a lot of study before you can work out what's actually happening.
Agreed with your point here also - but my point is also true - different truths can operate in a situ at many diff. levels. - you speak here of the political aspect and me the psyc. We are both right because - of course - these things are interrelated... as is everything..
Love
LW X
Jan 11 2007 23:10
#22
Lone Wolf wrote:
We are both right because - of course - these things are interrelated... as is everything..Love
LW X
Bloody hippy, you can interrelate your lips with my arse
Jan 11 2007 23:13
#23
magnifico wrote:
I don't think there's anything this deep going on. The reality is that they don't want there to BE any upper echelons in the NHS, because they don't want there to be an NHS at all. All gov't NHS policy at the moment is directed towards privatising/marketising and selling off any parts that can be profitable, and running down/closing any parts that can't. But they do it in such a sly way, with complicated structures and confusing language, that you have to put in quite a lot of study before you can work out what's actually happening.
You bastard! That's exactly what I said to you at the bookfair. 
Jan 11 2007 23:33
#24
magnifico wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote:
We are both right because - of course - these things are interrelated... as is everything..Love
LW X
Bloody hippy, you can interrelate your lips with my arse
I MIGHT choose to interrelate my boot with said arse instead....
Jan 11 2007 23:34
#25
Refused wrote:
magnifico wrote:
I don't think there's anything this deep going on. The reality is that they don't want there to BE any upper echelons in the NHS, because they don't want there to be an NHS at all. All gov't NHS policy at the moment is directed towards privatising/marketising and selling off any parts that can be profitable, and running down/closing any parts that can't. But they do it in such a sly way, with complicated structures and confusing language, that you have to put in quite a lot of study before you can work out what's actually happening.You bastard! That's exactly what I said to you at the bookfair.
You should be pleased you were taken seriously and actually listened to for once!!
Jan 11 2007 23:37
#26
Last night I had a nightmare that insider knowledge about the state and future of the NHS had become unfashionable. I'm now afraid to go to sleep.
Jan 11 2007 23:44
#27
I just found it all a bit cheesy at the very notion a BBC TV programme trying to solve the problem of the NHS when it’s very well know what the problem are. In fact don’t even know why I am spending my time writing on here; it’s not going to make a blind bit of different, as it will all be forgotten tomorrow and we all be hacking back to the “usual” debate of class while in fact we are all middle class tossers pretending otherwise. i.e. we all got computers at home and internet connection. There’s just no singular “order or control” in anarchism, I’ve just been reading the Wikipedia debate which pretty much sums up my view of anarchism – “chaos”. Anyway we all got the Spanish civil war to mope about for a few more years, Anyway back to the BBC NHS debate, I don’t want to be accused of derailing the tread.
Jan 11 2007 23:48
#28
Quote:
we all be hacking back to the “usual” debate of class while in fact we are all middle class tossers pretending otherwise. i.e. we all got computers at home and internet connection.
having an internet connection makes you middle class? Fucksake I suppouse in the 1970's you thought everyone with a TV was an aristo.
Does having Sky television make you posh too?
Jan 11 2007 23:50
#29
Big Brother wrote:
it’s not going to make a blind bit of different, as it will all be forgotten tomorrow and we all be hacking back to the “usual” debate of class
You don't think whether or not we have healthcare free at the point of use is a class issue? And I would very much disagree that having an internet commection makes you a 'middle class tosser', but I agree that's another issue.
Jan 12 2007 00:41
#30
Big Brother wrote:
I just found it all a bit cheesy at the very notion a BBC TV programme trying to solve the problem of the NHS when it’s very well know what the problem are.Oh its extremely cheesy - as noone on here has denied...
In fact don’t even know why I am spending my time writing on here;
prob. cos it is an important issue to you..
it’s not going to make a blind bit of different,
it does to those who are posting -even if it IS only as an outlet/to vent - this in itself has value..better than us all feeling isolated within our own thoughts..
as it will all be forgotten tomorrow
not by any of us who are posting on here..
and we all be hacking back to the “usual” debate of class
it relates - it is a class issue - wealthy peeps don't have to sod about within the crazy machinations of the NHS in the first place..
while in fact we are all middle class tossers pretending otherwise. i.e. we all got computers at home and internet connection.
debatable this is a sign of class - but IS another debate
There’s just no singular “order or control” in anarchism,
would you want there to be? how diff. would that be to authoritarianism?
I’ve just been reading the Wikipedia debate which pretty much sums up my view of anarchism – “chaos”.
On the contrary - an anarcho-comm society necessitates us being more organised not less - if we operate in a chaotic way we don't get to feed or clothe ourselves - not good..
Anyway we all got the Spanish civil war to mope about for a few more years, Anyway back to the BBC NHS debate, I don’t want to be accused of derailing the tread.
It is ok you can derail a bit in libcommunity - there is more "order and control" on the other forums..
Btw there is a "what is your strand of thinking" thread in Thought that may be of interest BB..
Love
LW X
I don't think he's grasped the complexity of the situation. One thing that really sticks in my craw (yeah, I said it) is hospital hierarchies and the damage it does to relationships between professionals. People kept bringing it up and he kept ignoring it.