I think you need to address the issue of the way the market can and will move into any area that offers the possibility of profit. Look at what's happened to vegetarian foods - when I was starting out as a veggie you couldn't get the stuff in supermarkets, now you can. Why would a vegan range of foods be any less profitable, should the diet become more widely accepted? Capital constantly seeks to recuperate.
Help in drafting anarchist vegan text, 1st version now ready
knightrose wrote:
I think you need to address the issue of the way the market can and will move into any area that offers the possibility of profit. Look at what's happened to vegetarian foods - when I was starting out as a veggie you couldn't get the stuff in supermarkets, now you can. Why would a vegan range of foods be any less profitable, should the diet become more widely accepted? Capital constantly seeks to recuperate.
yes thats a good point, and its addressed in the animals and communism pamphlet.
I'm just worrying it is another can of worms to open and difficult to squeeze into one sentence - paragraph 
I'll see where a mention of that could be fit in.
revol68 wrote:
i think you've got to realsie that there is no necessary link between not wanting to eat animal products and libertarian communism.Tune back in next week when I ask for help in drafting an anarchist psp gamers text.
so you think that psp gamers face similar kinds of problems with capital than animal agriculture? If there is a reaction which can be seen as a communist one to these grave psp gamers social problems, then please do draft a text mate.
hey revol, taking your point seriously though - the main idea of this brief text is to formulate a link, to have another way of analysing the issue of what is happening in food production, animal industry and what can motivate some anarchists to go vegan. So if you say that there is no link, or that there isn't necessarily a link, i would like to hear more, but preferably after you have read the text, so i could improve it
Hi
Quote:
As a result working class dietary habits are on rapid decline.
My observations and personal experiences run counter to this suggestion. Perhaps I could be talked around to your point of view.
I quite like what you’re doing here. It does sound a bit like an apology for veganism though. Can veganism not be enjoyed for its own sake?
Quote:
Working class movements have a proud history of creating new cultures within the shell of capitalist exploitative culture.
I agree with this, but I sort of think it contradicts your comments over on “Organising for revolution”…
Quote:
rather than getting bogged down on some irrelevant scenarios of "revolution" and pretending like we have any idea how it would happen, i would focus on the actual organising methods and style of anarchists here and now.
How is it you can afford a concrete vision of a dietary mode, but not an economy or a political structure?
Love
LR
JDMF wrote:
hey revol, taking your point seriously though - the main idea of this brief text is to formulate a link, to have another way of analysing the issue of what is happening in food production, animal industry and what can motivate some anarchists to go vegan. So if you say that there is no link, or that there isn't necessarily a link, i would like to hear more, but preferably after you have read the text, so i could improve it :)
well yes infact there are far more pertinent issues to the class struggle going on around the PSP than there is about veganism (note i never said there wasn't a link between capitalism and our diets), the PSP has opened up a can of issues about property rights, free ware, reverse engineering all of which bear more relation to capitalism than whether someone decides to drink milk or not.
If your articles was to draw links between capitalism and our diets and food production then yes I would have no problem withit, but your article is about one particular life style choice, it is like trying to draw a link between libertarian communism and a one genre of video game.
Lazy Riser wrote:
HiQuote:
As a result working class dietary habits are on rapid decline.My observations and personal experiences run counter to this suggestion. Perhaps I could be talked around to your point of view.
perhaps the timeframe here is confusing, the decline in the nutritional content and dietary habits is fairly recent in UK, but far ahead already in US. So we are just going with the statistics here with 30% obesity rates and so on. There are some good studies on the class composition of the obesity problem (lower incomes disproportionally represented), and of course being an american issue also about the race composition of the obesity epidemic (blacks are disproportionately represented due to the class issue).
Its ironic though how diet has always been a class issue, but that we usually only see it as starving
Quote:
I quite like what you’re doing here. It does sound a bit like an apology for veganism though. Can veganism not be enjoyed for its own sake?
yes mate, totally. There are loads of purely vegan material out there though, and this text is partially a reaction to that actually. It pisses me off when i read many of these vegan leaflets and info sheets, for instance the vegan societys "Why Vegan", many ways an exellent pamphlet, but written without any analysis of the economic structures which lead to these problems. It is as if it is meat eating individual -> all problems of food production under capitalism.
And i have to admit, this has a double goal: also to educate vegans and people who care a lot of about these issues about some of the underlying economical and political reasons...
Quote:
I agree with this, but I sort of think it contradicts your comments over on “Organising for revolution”…
Never mind, i am full of contradictions and after 16 years of leftism and radical politics i still feel like a total newbie
Quote:
How is it you can afford a concrete vision of a dietary mode, but not an economy or a political structure?
the way i see it: diet is part of our culture, and as much as we are removing exploitation and hierarchies now within our movement as one of the essential steps to spread libertarian ideas among our class, i think questioning dietary culture is much like that. We are not bastards towards eachother, abuse or exploit eachother, and perhaps we should also not eat other sentient beings if we dont have to.
kalabine wrote:
it is impossible to link veganism with the class struggle, it would be like linking football players versus rugby players or summatit's a lifestyle choice pure and simple, it's not political, politics - polis - people, not animals.
how about you read the text first mate and then give your predictable comment anyway 
I don't think it's possible to predict what the diet of a communist society would be. Except, of course, that it would be a lot healthier than it is now. I imagine that it would involve a lot less animals. Isn't the desire to eat large quantities of dead animals a rather new phenomenon historically speaking, brought on by capitalism and its need to refine and package foodstuffs in ordre to be able to extract surplus value from their production combined with the market manipulators lies that eating a lot of meat is a sign of luxury.
It also goes hand in hand with the increase in the overall working day (when travel and the fact that both partners in a family tend to work these days are taken into account) which has reduced the amount of time left to cook properly and the consequent deskilling of many people in that area.
My great uncles, aunts and great grandparents had large vegetable gardens which they tended to feed their families. These days, allotments are a preserve of middle class people as a hobby??
My guess, to go back to my first statement is that communist people would eat far more vegetables. They wouldn't factory farm. the issue would be good quality food, produced in a healthy way. Whether that would involve meat is another matter. I rather suspect that for a large number it would. Can't see me touching the stuff though! Neither can I see myself going vegan, either.
revol68 or something like what he said wrote:
It's a life-style choice uggggh, like rugby
This would appear to contradict the ideas and poltical beliefs of a great many vegans (and vegetarians too). As mentioned before the percentage of veg*ans in the anarchist/libertarian movement cannot be ignored...it's no coincidence.
But JDMF....
I <3 U
and I'll contribute something better when I'm not soo tired.
im sorry but it is a fucking lifestyle choice.
Lots of anarchists like punk, doesn't mean it has any fucking relevance to libertarian communism, or has someone dug up Durruti's fucking i pod and discovered Crass in his favourites playlist?
If JDMF is merely wishin to draw links between our food comsumption, production and distribution and capitalism, then yes I would be supportive but attempting to draw a some sort of linear logic between anarchism and veganism is just daft, and reflects many peoples needs to develop an anarchist position on everything from suicide to wiping your arse.
Again let me use the example of the PSP, if i was to write and article making links between capitalism and SONY's attempts to stop freeware, and reverse engineering, that would be fair enough, it should afterall touch on issues of ownership, the commodity form and political role of legal structures in defending private property.
If however I attempted to write a text dealing with how first person shooters will be abolished under libertarian communism, and we will all play some fluffy Echo the Doplhin shite then I would deserve a slap for mistaking my individual lifestyle choices for reality.
Hi
Quote:
As mentioned before the percentage of veg*ans in the anarchist/libertarian movement cannot be ignored...it's no coincidence.
Victim mentalities. Sexual repression. Judeo-Christian conditioning in the tradition of “the meek shall inherit the earth”. Emulating poverty through sacrifice. Abstract sense of discipline and trial. Dark notions of the dominant human corrupting the innocence of the exploited beast.
Would anyone agree that JDMF’s analysis is dangerously likely to lead to his finding himself suddenly carnivore, anti-liberal and uber-workerist? It can happen, I’ve seen it.
Love
LR
aaaaargh
fuckin' vegans tryin' ta justify their dietry choice with libertarian communist ideology. Sorry JDMF but the far right cornered that market first - 'Patriotic Vegan' I believe the pamphlet was called. Perhaps you should have a look at it to see if you can gain further inspiration in your quest for a synthesis of ethical dietary and political choices?
Recognising the many issues around aricultural industrial production does not necessitate libertarian communists become vegans or advocate the vegan diet as the revolutionary diet (there is no revolutionary diet). Sometimes you are sooo spot on and other times sooo whacked out.
Why is workers control of industry the answer in other industries and in agriculture its change yer diet?
I do like ya though.
All the best frum nasty ole meat eatin' critter killin' me;
Hi
Lazy Riser wrote:
HiJDMFist wrote:
HiMay I suggest "Red Animal Revolution"?
Love
Oliver
Not as an organisational thesis you can't. Nice posting style though.
Love
LR
Surely there must be something pertinent from Animal Farm.
Thanks, I find that it makes posts much easier and more pleasant to read. Don't quite remember where I picked it up though.
Love
Oliver
Hi
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
aaaaarghfuckin' vegans tryin' ta justify their dietry choice with libertarian communist ideology. Sorry JDMF but the far right cornered that market first - 'Patriotic Vegan' I believe the pamphlet was called. Perhaps you should have a look at it to see if you can gain further inspiration in your quest for a synthesis of ethical dietary and political choices?
Recognising the many issues around aricultural industrial production does not necessitate libertarian communists become vegans or advocate the vegan diet as the revolutionary diet (there is no revolutionary diet). Sometimes you are sooo spot on and other times sooo whacked out.
Why is workers control of industry the answer in other industries and in agriculture its change yer diet?I do like ya though.
All the best frum nasty ole meat eatin' critter killin' me;
I've noticed that I forgot to give myself an introduction. So, by way of introduction, I'm Oliver (that's the bit that comes after love), I'm a long-time-lurker-recent-poster, and I'm a platformist in Atlanta (the USA).
Now as for what you wrote: read the fucking pamphlet! If it were a pamphlet about anarchism and the fair trade movement would you ask the writer: "Why is workers control of industry the answer in other industries and in clothing its change yer shopping habits?"
And JDMF great pamhplet so far. When their finished I'll be excited about distributing (slightly modified) versions in the USA.
Love
Oliver
Quote:
I've noticed that I forgot to give myself an introduction. So, by way of introduction, I'm Oliver (that's the bit that comes after love), I'm a long-time-lurker-recent-poster, and I'm a platformist in Atlanta (the USA).Now as for what you wrote: read the fucking pamphlet! If it were a pamphlet about anarchism and the fair trade movement would you ask the writer: "Why is workers control of industry the answer in other industries and in clothing its change yer shopping habits?"
And JDMF great pamhplet so far. When their finished I'll be excited about distributing (slightly modified) versions in the USA.
Love
Oliver
Well hello Atlanta Platformist, I'm impressed, no really I am but -
Yes, in relation to the 'fair trade' movement I would ask "Why is workers control of industry the answer in other industries and in clothing its change yer shopping habits?"
And, for yer information I have read "the fucking pamphlet!".
Are you advocating changing diet and boycott politics as revolutionary activity? Reminds me of calls to 'Close the Gap' (meaning the Gap retail outlet) when mainly women workers in the clothing industry sweat shops were demanding NOT that the retail outlets be shut down or even boycotted but that pressure be brought to bear on the companies involved in order that they could better secure union recognition and the sorely needed improvement of conditions. A demand for solidarity - not a demand not to shop in certain outlets or change yer shopping habits (which would, in the unlikely event that the boycott was successful, result in closure and the loss of work for these women).
We might even start not with demands that would throw our fellow workers in such retail outlets onto the dole but instead with asking them about conditions at work and rates of pay, about whether thay have union recognition and what issues they face working in the retail end of the clothing industry. Otherwise we remain in the realms of the crackpot, detatched from the day to day realities of working peoples lives, experiences and desires.
The "change yer shopping habits" approach equates more to a guilty 'western' desire to "do-good" and really bears no relation to the demands of workers in sweat shops in 'under developed' countries. Sorta like demands to end child labour (runs for cover) when the earnings of children are essential for many families the world over. A bit of western 'cultural' imperialism demanding that their kids should have 'proper' upbringings like our kids that completely misses the economic realities faced by huge amounts of people across the globe.
Catch yersel' on.
btw there is no such fuckin' thing as 'fair trade' anyway, all capitalist production rests on exploitation - you cannot make that 'fair'.
Cheers;
comrades, comrades - why do i get a sense of hostility here 
As some of you were kind enough to ignore my wish that this would not become another fight about veganism, i guess this thread has to descent into one anyway.
So lets go!
revol68 wrote:
but your article is about one particular life style choice
veganism can be a lifestyle choice for some who do it for personal reasons whatever they may be.
But for many veganism is a political one, a choice stemming out of their political values and beliefs, and like we wrote there, this take on veganism is a cultural and political choice. Much like we do try to create a culture of, say, not being sexist in our daily behaviour, or not to laugh at a handicapped person on the street, or not be an arse and abusive towards eachother, or not to litter and destroy common property or what ever, these are just daft examples - these are just small everyday consequences from our politics and culture. In the same way someone who believes that in a communist society food production should be on a sustainable basis, and have enough cross species sympathy to not want animals (human and non-human, but in this case the non-human kinds) to be exploited since we don't need to, and to build a healthy dietary habits.
So if the previous examples of our politics affecting our culture are a lifestyle choice, then yes, i agree, veganism is a lifestyle choice (i guess we could then just determine lifestyle choice as anything where your politics reflect your everyday behaviour - and i think in that case it just becomes a worthless term).
I understand your desire to belittle and insult and wanting to equate an everyday response to social problem like veganism to lifestyle choice like listening to bad music, and if you can't see the difference, i think we are better off agreeing to disagree.
kalabine wrote:
it's not political, politics - polis - people, not animals.
You are mixing by with about here mate: politics is by people, as agents, but do not try to limit sphere of politics into being about humans only.
volin wrote:
As mentioned before the percentage of veg*ans in the anarchist/libertarian movement cannot be ignored...it's no coincidence.
true, and i have thought about why is that. Several reasons for that, just briefly: empowered individuals, access to information, support network and that it fits the politics really fucking well
Historical interesting example: apparently in the first vegan society board of trustees in the 50's one member was a known anarchist who was described as "silent but angry" perhaps should dig up more info on this fella...
Lazy Riser wrote:
Would anyone agree that JDMF’s analysis is dangerously likely to lead to his finding himself suddenly carnivore, anti-liberal and uber-workerist? It can happen, I’ve seen it.
LOL! Well, i have been an uber-workerist vegan earth firstie socialist from my late teens - couple people seem to think there is a contradiction, but i fail to see it. Perhaps i should do like some strongly opinionated comrades here and read loads of books by some old dudes
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Sorry JDMF but the far right cornered that market first - 'Patriotic Vegan' I believe the pamphlet was called. Perhaps you should have a look at it to see if you can gain further inspiration in your quest for a synthesis of ethical dietary and political choices?
wow, a low blow!
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Why is workers control of industry the answer in other industries and in agriculture its change yer diet?
because, like we wrote, even in a communist society for sustainability and food scarcity reasons plant based diet is desirable. Unless of course we want to have a society where we keep on doing all the things we do now, except just under workers control, and those whose diet has dramatically changed in the past 50 or so years to include many times more animal products than before in the expense of food production capacity elsewhere should still for some reason continue to do so. I don't see the logic in that.
Look: we agree that being a communist changes a lot in us, and around us. I'm sure it is not so hard to believe that being a communist would affect diet part of your culture as well - even if you disagree with the conclusion, thats fine, but you can see how some people, like me and many other peeps, see that as a logical conclusion?
And to correct: workers control is the answer in agriculture as well, of course it is, but even if it was under workers control the dietary culture as it is today is unsustainable and uncommunist in so many ways that you would think it is a positive thing that people are trying to find a sustainable dietary culture now (these things don't change overnight).
I think one reason why veganism bugs you is that you think of it as a shopping habit, whereas i see it as a dietary culture (separate from shopping, which is a consequence of it, but not a source of it).
Despite my bollocks still aching from your lowest of the low blow, i still love your stuff bro!
I spent four years as a vegan, but have been veggie for the last two or so [so I understand where JDMF is coming from]. I think that, to my knowledge, almost all arguments for veganism are essentially lifestylist or oriented around 'morality'- which is by definition intensely personal.
This is except for the only powerful argument for veganism [which i tihnk is probably just an argument for vegetarianism] which is the one over land and energy use. There is an in-built upper limit to the energy efficiency of transfers up the food chain of around 20-30%. Somewhere in the region of 25% of the energy that a cow consumes is eventually stored in its body. When you eat a cow, a similar efficiency of energy transfer is experienced. This is, of course, before you take into account the industrial nature of agriculture, massively convoluted transport chains- packing, storage, chemical and refridgeration energy use etc.
the upshot is pretty much that a meat-based diet here necessitates starvation in the third world [rational economic farmer produces for export rather than domestic consumption, and an efficient crop to grow for primary consumption is replaced by grazing fields for cattle etc. Of course, dietary choices under capitalism cannot change this- as there would never be enough of a shift in the market to cause third-world peasants to produce primary crops for domestic consumption instead of meat for export- so this is just an argument for building workers' power and revolutiony change.
John. wrote:
I reckon if it's something aimed at vegans saying they should be anarchists, fair enough. But vice-versa? Waste of time.
I can see where you're coming from, but if you take our position (assuming JDMF and others agree with me) where veganism is an integral part of our politics we can't just keep these ideas to ourselves and not try to change the world with them. So we shouldn't be all gender-control uber-fucktards and attack anyone that doesn't share our analysis but we're going to try to persuade anarchists on this and we're going to try to move the libertarian movement and society as a whole towards a radically different approach to animals. Wrong?
pingtiao wrote:
This is except for the only powerful argument for veganism... which is the one over land and energy use.
Sure it's an argument for veganism, but the main one for me (that made me go vegan in the first place) is if we don't treat animals as commodities (like we do in capitalist society) how do we treat them? Like the sentient beings they are, and as such, relating to them in consideration of their capacity of suffering and wants for freedom and happiness.
Btw, I'm not a fucking lifestylist!
Lazy Riser wrote:
Would anyone agree that JDMF’s analysis is dangerously likely to lead to his finding himself suddenly carnivore, anti-liberal and uber-workerist? It can happen, I’ve seen it.
I think Lazy Riser hits the thing on the head for me. The thing that as to distinguish libertarian vegans from the other AR activists (liberal, middle class, conservative and authoritarian) is that we have to recognise that only humans can bring social change, but the ultimate goal is to establish a sustainable culture in the here and now which shows that veganism is a praciticable model, not only for animals, earth but also for humans.
So in that sense I think revol is wrong, Bakunin said to build our world in the shell of the old, so what is he objecting to exactly, Im not sure. But I think we have to be careful, if others dont accept our diets and what it entails, you cant pick and choose who makes up the libertarian movement. Industry, service and goods run by workers and for the people who use those services will naturally lead to the decline of heavy animal abuse industries, simply because its been taken outside the realm of capitalism, and will be seen in a sustainable context.
allright folks, been drafting this with couple other class struggle beanheads, and this is the working draft 0.2 at the moment.
Since it is about veganism, then those who have a special hatred against people who wish to change culture to reflect their political opinions, could you please provide constructive criticism rather than trying to undermine the foundations?
I'll pre-empt Jacks post, so he doesn't have to:
now since thats out of the way, lets see the text. Any opinions, corrections, suggestions and what not, please shoot!
Couple things on the to-do list:
1. title
2. end
3. and should there be a section about why people who care about these issues should be anarchists? Much like that peak oil dudes call for a libertarian workers movement to tackle upcoming oil crisis?
-----------------------
Text edited away since first version of the leaflet is now ready:
if you want to read it online:
http://lib4all.redblackandgreen.net/anarkovegan.pdf
(as a six page thing which is easier to follow)
if you want to print it out then use this PDF:
http://lib4all.redblackandgreen.net/anarkovegan-a4.pdf
Note this is a double sided A4 leaflet which folds in three.