Religion in the USA
Feb 1 2009 11:46
#392
Antieverything wrote:
...religious people have, incidentally, been some of the only people I've met who seem to have, and with genuine humility, overcome racism, sexism, homophobia, nationalism...and more generally, the tendency toward violence and domination which makes up the core of these horrors.
I find this hard to believe.
Prejudices and ideologies need to be overcome, that's fairly basic.
Quote:
Racists, nationalists, and sexists aren't an a parasitic minority of the class...they are its heart and soul.
Unless the class addresses these problems then it is unlikely to become revolutionary and even if it does the revolution will fail unless it manages to do so.
I'm not sure who you are arguing with on here, of course you should avoid deliberately antagonising religious people. Insulting people is rarely a good way of convincing them of your beliefs. At the same time showing a false deference to religion or pretending that it is progressive in any way is pointless. If you act for your class and your community then you will hopefully win the respect of people in your class and community, even if they don't agree with you on everything.
Antieverything wrote:
I didn't say anything about you, Choccy. This issue has been of concern in the workers' movement as a whole for over a century.You specifically use the word 'pander'. I didn't advocate pandering to anything. We do, however, desperately need to realize that we as anarchists are utterly irrelevant and they as religious people are potentially very powerful. We simply ought not go out of our way to piss them off and, furthermore, recognize religious organizations as by far the most important and potentially effective community-based organizations we have to work with at the moment.
Refusing to engage on their terms simply because they are wrong doesn't make it any less futile.
What do you mean by engage with people on their terms?
There is no need to enter into a discussion on religion. You organise and work with people based on class and community issues. If there is a need for a strike then workers do not have to organise one on any other basis than they are workers and have a demand.
Your talk about the power of religious people and of their organisations suggests that you think that taking power is some kind of solution. Anarchism is not about taking the power and changing things, it is about changing the nature of power. Anarchists joining religious organisations and pretending to think that religion is a good thing, which is what you seem to be advocating, is absolutely pointless. If you reveal your politics then you will not be allowed to move to the positions of power your logic seems to suggest that you would go for and you would be ineffevtive. Or you could never reveal them in which case you'd be ineffective as you'd be no different from a religious person working there. The only way you can act with these organisations is by working with them for specific reasons and being absolutely clear on them.
Feb 1 2009 12:20
#393
Antieverything wrote:
I didn't say anything about you, Choccy. This issue has been of concern in the workers' movement as a whole for over a century.You specifically use the word 'pander'. I didn't advocate pandering to anything. We do, however, desperately need to realize that we as anarchists are utterly irrelevant and they as religious people are potentially very powerful. We simply ought not go out of our way to piss them off and, furthermore, recognize religious organizations as by far the most important and potentially effective community-based organizations we have to work with at the moment.
Refusing to engage on their terms simply because they are wrong doesn't make it any less futile.
It's one thing to be sensible in how you deal with religious people, but religious organisations are reactionary institutions. To work through churches, synagogues, mosques etc. smacks of desparation.
Feb 1 2009 16:39
#394
Antieverything wrote:
oh...and by the way...I can prove to you that ya'll aren't that different from the irrational religious hordes: there's nothing I can say to you that will change your mind about atheism being the wave of the future.
Yes there is, if you could show me compelling and incontovertible evidence for the existence of a god, I would accept it and abandon my atheism, thats why Im rational. Irrational religious hordes are 'irrational' precisely because, despite the fact that all evidence points to their belief in a god / creator being incorrect, they still believe it.
Thats elementary.
In any case:
1. This argument was put to bed about 10 pages and many months ago on this thread.
2. This thread is now about what weeler does in toilets, keep the fuck up.
Feb 1 2009 18:57
#395
notch8 wrote:
2. This thread is now about what weeler does in toilets, keep the fuck up.
I only said I was cottaging so they wouldnt find my bag of coke.
Feb 9 2009 23:14
#396
Antieverything wrote:
I've been to more than one demo in which the majority of the black bloc were engaging in satanic chants. It was stupid. Many of the older people were visibly upset. Good thing they didn't show up to the immigrant rights demos a few years back...they woulda gotten themselves killed.Anyone who claims that Anarchists or leftists in general don't have a problem with alienating religious people isn't paying any attention.
Furthermore, anyone who thinks that alienating religious people isn't a problem is an idiot. Full stop.
Any revolution that could conceivably occur in the west during our lifetimes will include huge numbers of religious people, most likely organized through churches, etc. and around religiously-based ideals of social justice. If religious people do not make up a large portion of the revolutionary movement (most likely a majority of it, particularly in the US) then there will be no revolution.
That is a fact...demographic patterns speak for themselves. There can simply be no argument.
Western countries, particularly the US are becoming more religious demographically, in large part due to immigration patterns (ya'll like immigrants right?). Atheism is becoming increasingly marginalized.
The long-held left-modernist view that irrationality and religion will fade away against the relentless advance of rational progress has held sway over leftists for centuries...and it proved to be utterly, irreconcilably wrong.
Sure sucks, when central components of your worldview turn out to be complete bullshit...maybe now you know how religious people feel!
oh...and by the way...I can prove to you that ya'll aren't that different from the irrational religious hordes: there's nothing I can say to you that will change your mind about atheism being the wave of the future.
Not very 'anti-everything' are you?
By 'the west' you mean the US? Any revolution in e.g. England or France or Spain isn't going to involve fucking church groups. Religious people may make up a majority of a revolutionary movement, but they won't be doing it as religious people. "Western" countries aren't becoming more religious overall, nor are "Eastern" countries for that matter. Religious belief overall is still declining, even Islam is only growing slightly above the population growth rate (i.e. very slowly).
Feb 9 2009 23:35
#397
I like to engage with the religious people I know in real life by laughing at them. I leave the devasting anti-religious arguments to my 9 year old daughter these days.
I didn't say anything about you, Choccy. This issue has been of concern in the workers' movement as a whole for over a century.
You specifically use the word 'pander'. I didn't advocate pandering to anything. We do, however, desperately need to realize that we as anarchists are utterly irrelevant and they as religious people are potentially very powerful. We simply ought not go out of our way to piss them off and, furthermore, recognize religious organizations as by far the most important and potentially effective community-based organizations we have to work with at the moment.
Refusing to engage on their terms simply because they are wrong doesn't make it any less futile.